VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[JoeFromLB]

According to McCroskey's sister, he has been deeply involved in horrorcore since 1999, when he was ten years old. I don't think it would be beyond the pale to question the judgment of parents who would allow a ten-year old to be into horrible stuff like that. If a parent doesn't have control over a ten-year old child, something's not right in that household, imho.

I can see where the situation becomes more difficult with teenagers, however.
Emma's parents could have been at their wits' end trying to help her get away from the dark world she was becoming immersed in. I'm sure her father, being a pastor, was praying for a good outcome here.

I will not make any public judgments of the young victims' parents, two of whom are also victims. This is a time for grieving and praying, not for judging.

 

[ziggy]

Again, I have seen no evidence that the parents supported this behavior. In fact from what I have read, it is just the opposite. They took their child into counseling over it.

Hodgson said Kelley, who specialized in violence against women but has taught classes in homicide, had been struggling since Emma got into horrorcore a couple of years ago. She and her husband separated about a year ago, and all three were in therapy "trying to move through this."

"Clearly, she was very upset with it and didn't necessarily approve of it," he said. "I mean short of locking them in their room or something and putting wires on the windows, I don't necessarily know what you do."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ir6PIEFJ6PHQFXW7IckUo784PJGQD9ATAP901

Emma's parents were seeking the help of professionsionals and trying to do their best for their daughter. They drove her to concerts in order to protect her.

None of us know what kind of decisions the parents were forced to make. Do any of us really have the right to pass judgement on them?

I didn't say they supported it, I said quasi, as in implied perhaps by their actions or inaction.

Counseling was a valiant effort. I have my own issues with counseling, too detailed to go into here.

We don't know how far into the issue of horrocore things got in counseling either. That process is slow (from experience in receiving family court type counseling) and perhaps they were focused on the divorce but not the specific manifestations of it. Who knows.

Not all counselors are good. Not all advice they give is wise.

I'm just saying for the sake of any other parents that might be in a similar situation, it certainly appears that it might be prudent to explore other options.

I have a very, very good friend who had to resort to sending her teen age boy to a ranch/camp in Montana. No way out up there. It worked wonders. Oh, and her counselor basically took the stand that…well, you know, kids these days…and…there’s not a lot you can do but just try to make sure they don’t die. Well she obviously didn’t buy it and went elsewhere for answers. There is no guarantee her path would have been a solution for someone else and her child could have died and I suppose there would be raised eyebrows at her decision. It’s not easy for sure – but looking into alternatives with new information is the motive here.

I know weak kneed parents who would never even consider such a thing (such as Mr. Zig and his 16 yo son is why we live separately. I don't agree with his parenting ideas and I'm not silent about it). It depends on how tough you are willing to be on a kid, and it depends on how tough that kid is.

Believe me I'm not blaming them or saying they are bad parents. AGAIN, if others are headed down a similar path and dissecting this tragedy helps another, then it is worth a look. I also think shining a light on the sub-culture is good information for parents too, as many of them are totally oblivious to what actually goes on in their child’s life. I do not think discussing it reduces it to pure gossip.

I just don’t think it is helpful to take the attitude that there was nothing else they could have done.

 

[ziggy]

According to McCroskey's sister, he has been deeply involved in horrorcore since 1999, when he was ten years old. I don't think it would be beyond the pale to question the judgment of parents who would allow a ten-year old to be into horrible stuff like that. If a parent doesn't have control over a ten-year old child, something's not right in that household, imho.

I can see where the situation becomes more difficult with teenagers, however.
Emma's parents could have been at their wits' end trying to help her get away from the dark world she was becoming immersed in. I'm sure her father, being a pastor, was praying for a good outcome here.

I will not make any public judgments of the young victims' parents, two of whom are also victims. This is a time for grieving and praying, not for judging.

I am an equal opportunity analyzer here. I think looking into how a kid can get so deeply involved in this stuff is important. Perhaps there are those that can be spared from being blessed with real blood and worshipping evil and horror and death.

 

[tapu]

Discussing and having an opinion about the actions of the parents that led up to such a horrible tragedy for their whole family and the child of another family does not equal judging the parents themselves as good or bad human beings. I really don't get the impulse here to shut down any discussion of the details surrounding how this murderer ended up in a position to attack these people in their own home. This was not a random situation, such as, say, the Clutters were victims of in 1950s Kansas. It is hurting no one for us to discuss a variety of interpretations of what could have gone wrong, and what could have been done differently. No one is attacking the parents, for chrissakes. No need to try and hush up anyone with a less than glowing approval and acceptance of the whole thing.

 

[forgottencash]

I have friends who sent their son to a wilderness camp too. They couldn't tell him ahead of time because they feared he run away. They woke him in the middle of the night and took him to the airport. He was given no choice. They were very conflicted about it, but they had gotten to the point that they couldn't leave him alone for 5 minutes and no one can live that way.

I can't help from wondering if Professor Kelley lost her job because of decisions made about her daughter. Perhaps being a watchdog overtook her responsibilities as a teacher.

 

[JoeFromLB]

Discussing and having an opinion about the actions of the parents that led up to such a horrible tragedy for their whole family and the child of another family does not equal judging the parents themselves as good or bad human beings. I really don't get the impulse here to shut down any discussion of the details surrounding how this murderer ended up in a position to attack these people in their own home. This was not a random situation, such as, say, the Clutters were victims of in 1950s Kansas. It is hurting no one for us to discuss a variety of interpretations of what could have gone wrong, and what could have been done differently. No one is attacking the parents, for chrissakes. No need to try and hush up anyone with a less than glowing approval and acceptance of the whole thing.

I couldn't agree with you more on everything you've said, but it seems a very sensitive topic to many posters, and the moderators will probably step in and start banning people if the thread turns into a free-for-all. I don't think it's right to shut down a discussion like this, but I'm not in charge.

I would rather be muzzled a bit on this specific topic than be banned.

 

[tapu]

I couldn't agree with you more on everything you've said, but it seems a very sensitive topic to many posters, and the moderators will probably step in and start banning people if the thread turns into a free-for-all. I don't think it's right to shut down a discussion like this, but I'm not in charge.

I would rather be muzzled a bit on this specific topic than be banned.

Looking back, it would seem that what the moderators do not tolerate is someone acting as though another has no right to a different opinion.

 

[JoeFromLB]

I have friends who sent their son to a wilderness camp too. They couldn't tell him ahead of time because they feared he run away. They woke him in the middle of the night and took him to the airport. He was given no choice. They were very conflicted about it, but they had gotten to the point that they couldn't leave him alone for 5 minutes and no one can live that way.

I can't help from wondering if Professor Kelley lost her job because of decisions made about her daughter. Perhaps being a watchdog overtook her responsibilities as a teacher.

Interesting point. Yes, that could be very possible!

 

[JoeFromLB]

Looking back, it would seem that what the moderators do not tolerate is someone acting as though another has no right to a different opinion.

Yes, I seem to recall that now.

 

[tapu]

I want to try clearing the air about this from a different direction, too:

I am absolutely convinced that these particular parents wanted nothing but the best for their daughter. I think they probably undertook every decision about this with love and acceptance and worked very hard to sort out the difficult issues and multiple possibilities involved.

I also think that had I been in their place, I would have drawn the line at letting a 20yo man, known only through their 16yo daughter's correspondence on a horrorcore-based internet exchange, stay in my home for days. If I really wanted to go to all lengths, I'd have gotten him a hotel nearby and they could visit each other during the day.

Now, maybe you think that's really out there. To me, it seems... kind of obvious. I wish Emma's parents had thought more along these lines.

But then, I also won't carpool with some guy from my office. Others get in the car for an hour-long drive with some man they know only through work, but not me. And there are people at work who think I'm nuts, I'm sure. Oh. Well.

 

[TaTaToothy]

The idea that these killings were some premeditated Satanic conspiracy seems awfully fanciful to me. I lean strongly toward the notion that these were the spontaneous actions of a maladjusted, jilted young man. I do think that Sam's involvement in a subculture that celebrates violence and Satanism was harmful, though, and polluted what sounds like a frankly weak and impressionable young mind. I have to believe his parents will spend the rest of their lives (appropriately) questioning their parenting decisions in that regard.

It's a very sad situation in any event, and I look forward to learning more as the investigators' findings become public.

 

[Bee Happy]

Scott, the General Manager of the Huddle House on Main Street says it blew her away because just the day before, she, her son and a few other workers at the restaurant chatted with Richard Sam McCroskey.

She and her son Cody arrived at work just before six a.m. last Friday and when they walked in, McCroskey was sitting on a barstool eating barbeque, fries and drinking a monster sized energy drink.

Patty tells CBS 6 "I leaned over and said to him, son, that drink isn't good for you. He commented I don't plan on going to sleep." When she got next to him, the manager says she detected a horrible odor. One, she never smelled before.

http://www.wtvr.com/wtvr-waiter-talks-with-suspected-killer,0,277538.story

 

[ziggy]

You know I find it very interesting that he didn't seem to mind the smell that everyone else thought was so horrible - sitting there eating no less.

Does that have something to do with him actually liking the smell of death and decay because he conditioned himself to do so through his so-called worship?

He made no attempts that we know of to clean up and get rid of the smell.

So instead of just a spurned wayward young man into a silly fad, was he the real deal? He did carry out what everyone thinks is so cool in horrorcore yes? He shed blood - and killed a man of God (extra points?).

I think it's hard to say that this is a harmless fad kids get involved in. Some may enter with that intent, but I imagine it can take hold of them completely.

What kind of society are we that we even tolerate the mandess of such a culture and belief and especially one that targets young people? Just wondering away here.

 

[KindraLore]

The smell thing borthered me as well. Most would clean up after commiting such a crime, especially if they felt remorse which obviously he didn't. But more so as not to be detected. Somewhere in one of the news links it mentioned he actually called the policew to the house because he said he had heard noises in the basement.

I think he wanted to get caught, not for reasons of regret and remorse but instead to become what he so worshipped..maybe for the fame. Maybe because he thought they would idolize him when he actually did what their sub-culture spoke and rapped about.

I did read a comment on one of the provided links that said something like, "Ask Rasakel..she knows why the girls died." Rasakel is SinkTanics gf and was also friends with both Sammy and the girls. There are pics of her with herself and the girls and others of she and Sammy where one caption said "I love this kid."

 

[KindraLore]

Sorry. that should have been Razakel instead. Im using my cell and its hard to go back and revise.

 

[gxm]

I want to try clearing the air about this from a different direction, too:

I am absolutely convinced that these particular parents wanted nothing but the best for their daughter. I think they probably undertook every decision about this with love and acceptance and worked very hard to sort out the difficult issues and multiple possibilities involved.

I also think that had I been in their place, I would have drawn the line at letting a 20yo man, known only through their 16yo daughter's correspondence on a horrorcore-based internet exchange, stay in my home for days. If I really wanted to go to all lengths, I'd have gotten him a hotel nearby and they could visit each other during the day.

Now, maybe you think that's really out there. To me, it seems... kind of obvious. I wish Emma's parents had thought more along these lines.

But then, I also won't carpool with some guy from my office. Others get in the car for an hour-long drive with some man they know only through work, but not me. And there are people at work who think I'm nuts, I'm sure. Oh. Well.

IMO, it looks like they wanted to get him out of their home and were trying to do that as civilly as possibly, perhaps the fact that the young man was alone and far from home appealed to their sympathies and they didn't want to toss him out on the street. We have no idea if they regretted allowing him to visit but it's certainly possible that they did and wanted to send him on his way with the least amount of drama.

The people who came in contact with Sam after the murder mention that, aside from the terrible smell, there was nothing in his demeanor to suggest recent violence. Even the police detected nothing unusual about his manner, not even after he'd wrecked the pastor's car. So I don't see how we can assume that Emma's parents should have been able to see through Sam's reportedly calm demeanor and realize the terrible violence he was capable of.

 

[forgottencash]

Maybe the parents had no idea how old he is. He looks much younger and the kids could have told them that he was 16 or 17. Even if they saw his age posted on a social networking site, they could be told that everyone pretends to be older than they are. Many do. I imagine that those kids were quite adept at manipulating their parents.

 

[gxm]

Maybe the parents had no idea how old he is. He looks much younger and the kids could have told them that he was 16 or 17. Even if they saw his age posted on a social networking site, they could be told that everyone pretends to be older than they are. Many do. I imagine that those kids were quiet adept at manipulating their parents.

Good point. Sam could pass for as young as 15. I'd say HS freshman.

 

[NativeGirl]

I find this odd I wonder why wells was upset??

Alex Peak tells us the last time he spoke with Wells was Monday, September 14. He tells us he's not doing well.

"I talked to her friend and she was like, ‘alex, something terrible happened.' and I was like 'what?' And she told me what happened and I did not believe it, I really didn't. I had to like call her and hear her and she was crying. It was terrible."

http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0909/662844.html

Restaurant Workers Come Face To Face With Suspected Killer

http://www.wtvr.com/wtvr-waiter-talks-with-suspected-killer,0,277538.story+

 

[tapu]

My mother used to say, "Everybody's nice when you meet them." This bears on why I don't carpool with the nice guy from work, and on why I don't let people I met on the internet stay overnight with my child. Furthermore, even if Sam "seemed nice," he was practically wearing a sign that said I Eat Babies.

I urge all of us, in this world, to exercise a little more caution around such matters. Especially when your own and others' children are in your care.