VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #3

[ziggy]

Hello, I just wanted to thank you all for your amazing detective work on this case. I am a former student of Dr. Kelly's, and I still reside w/in an hour of Farmville. This case has been so disturbing and very frustrating b/c we have not been able to get much information on what really happened. It is so hard to understand how this could have taken place. There are so many questions, and I truly hope w/ the indictments being handed down this week that this is the start of finding out what really happened. This case has haunted me and kept me up at night, as it has so many others in the Longwood/Southside VA community.

I just want to let you all know as well that even though Dr. Kelly is being criticized for what she let her daughter do, she was a wonderful person. She was an extremely popular professor at Longwood and was beloved by her students. My friend used to babysit Emma when she was about 6-7 years old and I remember her being on campus alot, such a sweet girl. My heart breaks when I think about what happened to them.

The only conclusion I can come to as to why she let Emma slip into all this is twofold. On one hand, she was trying to let Emma find her own way and be her friend (I am sure she felt guilt about her divorce), and on the other, she must have been studying the violence of horrorcore. She would have been your best poster on this forum-she loved criminal justice, and was instrumental in making it a major at Longwood. I of course can't say what happened, but I have not been able to shake that feeling from the beginning that she was studying the whole horrorcore scene on a academic level ie, sociology and violence. It is the only way I can figure this highly intelligent woman who loved her daughter would let this kind of thing get so close and into her home.

Anyways, your forum has been a wealth of information and I thank you all for your hard work!

Hi LoveVA and welcome. I'm sure you are haunted. I'm haunted and I'm on the other side of the country.

I think you are right; and you're making me believe even more that is why she consented to have Sam come and stay at the house and why they went to the concert. Do you ever wonder if she was coming to the conclusion that there may be no causal connection to that little underground community and violence? That would be weird. I'm sure they will uncover any research material she would have started to gather. If not officially researching, she may not have been able to help but be professionally curious as hell.

Much more may start to come out now. For me, I just want to know what happened, how it went down and what caused him to become so brutal that day and continue to be depraved. Why? How? All the basics.

It freaks me out too because if you take away Syko Sam, he looks pretty soft, doughy and harmless. Yikes.

 

[ziggy]

I understand but I would need to see the evidence before I can say he is guilty and it really doesnt matter anyway, all that matters is if the state can prove it, if they cant then he should walk. Thats the way it is and the way it should be. As we stand Sam is innocent until the state proves otherwise, having went to law school many years back I learned the importance of the difference between someone committing a crime and the state's ability to prove such.

But even more interesting to me is how he can be such a nice young man to everyone who meets him and do something like this, its just beyond comprehension.

True. I'm 1st year law right now and I've been on the forum for 9 years off and on. This is where I get to have an opinion. There would have to be shocking exculpatory evidence at this point given what we do know.

Ted Bundy was a pretty nice guy to those who knew his other "normal" side I guess, but it is disturbing that someone can seem shy, quiet, nice AND THEN go so crazy brutal and that's why it's fascinating too. We don't REALLY know people.

And that reminds me, back to Torts.

 

[PAXIMUS]

True. I'm 1st year law right now and I've been on the forum for 9 years off and on. This is where I get to have an opinion. There would have to be shocking exculpatory evidence at this point given what we do know.

Ted Bundy was a pretty nice guy to those who knew his other "normal" side I guess, but it is disturbing that someone can seem shy, quiet, nice AND THEN go so crazy brutal and that's why it's fascinating too. We don't REALLY know people.

And that reminds me, back to Torts.

Cool, I didnt know you were a law student, I elected not to make a career of it after spending a few years in the DAs office and preferred a career in journalism instead but there is nothing better than a legal education, whether you decide to practice or not it will benefit in many ways in your life. Good luck and if you need any help let me know, I went through exactly what you are doing now and it wasnt much fun at the time!

If I ever do practice again, and I may, I will definitely work in criminal defense and most likely in death pentalty case appeals, but I need to pay my house off first since there is no money in that. So I will write a few more articles before I consider that career change.

 

[sonicGG]

Greetings all. I am another newly registered member but have been lurking here since the beginning and come from the same "rigorous" forum that PAX does wave. Major props to everyone who has been posting here since the beginning.

I don't know why I am so fascinated with this case but now, certainly, the comments of the lawyer and sister about a "set-up" strike me as bizarre. Why would a lawyer take such a route unless they were sure it was either a. true or b. would somehow help with plea bargaining? I can't see it being b. since it seems that the only way to get out of the death penalty might be some temporary insanity plea (?). IANAL so help me out here folks (Ziggy?)
I guess we should entertain the theory then, that someone else did it and set up Sam which leads most likely to Shrim and his crew or some other known or unknown third party. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it but let's say, for argument's sake, that it is true.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Greetings all. I am another newly registered member but have been lurking here since the beginning and come from the same "rigorous" forum that PAX does wave. Major props to everyone who has been posting here since the beginning.

I don't know why I am so fascinated with this case but now, certainly, the comments of the lawyer and sister about a "set-up" strike me as bizarre. Why would a lawyer take such a route unless they were sure it was either a. true or b. would somehow help with plea bargaining? I can't see it being b. since it seems that the only way to get out of the death penalty might be some temporary insanity plea (?). IANAL so help me out here folks (Ziggy?)
I guess we should entertain the theory then, that someone else did it and set up Sam which leads most likely to Shrim and his crew or some other known or unknown third party. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it but let's say, for argument's sake, that it is true.

HEY BRO! Glad you came! Hope you can contribute, this has been a good thread, I came in late but its still going strong.

I myself have started to question my original belief that this was open and shut Sam did it. I dont know anymore what to believe and I dont have enough evidence to draw any serious conclusions yet.

As for insanity, he certainly would qualify for such a defense insofar as he hung around the scene, no real attempt to flee, invited the cops in with dead bodies in the house etc, this would show that perhaps he didnt know what he had did was WRONG which is one standard for an insanity plea, however that would quickly be shot down by the state when they introduce the phone call Sam made to Syniister after the murders as Syniister is on record as saying Sam told him he "killed them all" and he was very upset on the phone, which indicates that he was aware of what he did and that it was wrong. I suppose there is a chance at a temporary insanity plea but I dont know what the standards for VA are for that at this time.

Another thing to note is that Syniister has said in his statement something to the effect "you all cant judge Sam because you dont know him like I do AND WHAT HE HAD BEEN GOING THROUGH LATELY." This implies that perhaps Sam was having problems (of what nature we do not know) in the time leading up to the murders.

I would love to speak with Syniister but he is not speaking.

 

[Heroine]

I wonder if he drove off into the woods because he was planning on taking a drug cocktail to kill himself . . .

Maybe, but don't you think he would have done it before the cops got there, while he sat stuck in the ditch? Unless he was still unsure of what he wanted to do.

 

[Heroine]

Greetings all. I am another newly registered member but have been lurking here since the beginning and come from the same "rigorous" forum that PAX does wave. Major props to everyone who has been posting here since the beginning.

I don't know why I am so fascinated with this case but now, certainly, the comments of the lawyer and sister about a "set-up" strike me as bizarre. Why would a lawyer take such a route unless they were sure it was either a. true or b. would somehow help with plea bargaining? I can't see it being b. since it seems that the only way to get out of the death penalty might be some temporary insanity plea (?). IANAL so help me out here folks (Ziggy?)
I guess we should entertain the theory then, that someone else did it and set up Sam which leads most likely to Shrim and his crew or some other known or unknown third party. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it but let's say, for argument's sake, that it is true.

Welcome! :wave: This case is fascinating to say the least. It seems that a lot of people have gotten stuck on this case, including me of course. With all of the new evidence and still having trouble understanding some of the things we do know, it sorta takes a life of its own. I enjoy hearing everyone's different speculations and thoughts on this case. So join right in!

 

[PAXIMUS]

Welcome! :wave: This case is fascinating to say the least. It seems that a lot of people have gotten stuck on this case, including me of course. With all of the new evidence and still having trouble understanding some of the things we do know, it sorta takes a life on it's own. I enjoy hearing everyone's different speculations and thoughts on this case. So join right in!

I am not so sure whats more fascinating, the case itself or the fact that we are all so fascinated with it.:crazy:

What is strange to me is that there hasnt been a peep from the national news media about this case aside from the very short story on CNN a few weeks back. You would think Nancy Grace or Geraldo would be all over a case like this, but nothing. Weird.

 

[Heroine]

I am not so sure whats more fascinating, the case itself or the fact that we are all so fascinated with it.:crazy:

What is strange to me is that there hasnt been a peep from the national news media about this case aside from the very short story on CNN a few weeks back. You would think Nancy Grace or Geraldo would be all over a case like this, but nothing. Weird.

Yeah you definitely would think that Nancy Grace of all people would want to "talk" (haha) about this.

 

[sonicGG]

It is surprising about the media since they usually love a good witch hunt. In those local news clips, the reporters seem to be salivating to get some gory details. I think some of the fascination for myself is not the gory details but rather the irony of the horrocore connection (as opposed to finger-waving at it), the bizarre contact with the police who found nothing amiss, and now the "conspiracy" angle...Which agreed, seems so tenuous as to be laughable. "You don't know what he was going through" line really irks me. So what? They would be an excuse for, say, punching out a windshield or something but murder? And the lawyer's statement, "Lets wait until you actually learn more about him before you make any judgments". Is that going to be her defense? He is a nice kid but got confused? Like I said, I am not into gore but unless he killed each of the three females in their sleep and they were at least out cold with the first blow, he perhaps had to face looking into another human's eyes, seeing their plea to spare them the sacred gift of life, and then snuffing out that desire in an incredibly brutal manner. :cold:

BTW, I am residing in Japan (US ex-pat) so my posting times usually don't correlate but you people seem to stay up very late!

 

[blouAngel]

I was thinking about this also, or maybe Sam used the sharpie to draw stuff on the bodies or the walls, maybe the occult stuff that was reportered early on was drawn with sharpies.


Anyone's guess at this point on those sharpies.

I'd like to call that into question before we let another "fact" be generated here. I haven't read word one about a report of "occult stuff" that might have been written in Sharpie (tm)

 

[sonicGG]

Well there was a supposed "occult expert" brought in early on in this case and I do remember some claims of occult symbols. I'll dig up the link from the first thread later if you'd like. I use the quotes because the "expert" seemed to lump everything from taoism to Egyptology into the "occult".

 

[sonicGG]

Here's
the article.

Speaking only to WAVY.com, Rimer says what magnified the terrifying scene was where investigators found the bodies of husband and wife Debra Kelley and Mark Neiderbrock, their teenage daughter Emma, and her friend, Melanie Wells. Strange symbols were also found in the home.

"They were satanic in nature," said Rimer.

Rimer seems like, well, a tool. Here's one article from some neo-pagan that is critical of him. I will keep looking for more info on Rimer.

 

[blouAngel]

Well there was a supposed "occult expert" brought in early on in this case and I do remember some claims of occult symbols. I'll dig up the link from the first thread later if you'd like. I use the quotes because the "expert" seemed to lump everything from taoism to Egyptology into the "occult".

An "occult expert" being called in and finding occult symbols are not at all the same thing. That's almost as sloppy as the suggestion yesterday that McCroskey had been charged with 1 count capital murder in furtherance of terrorism because of a news report that noted that capital murder isn't a single charge and then listed that as one possible cause for the charge.

It's things like that which get remember later as facts when they were not factual at all. Details like that can make a big difference when trying to figure things out. It's hard enough to make sense of things as it is.

 

[blouAngel]

Here's
the article.


Rimer seems like, well, a tool. Here's one article from some neo-pagan that is critical of him. I will keep looking for more info on Rimer.

Well, I had missed that one. Rimmer is indeed a tool. I'm skeptical of his report too.

"So how can you tell if your child is dabbling in the occult? Rimer said look for signs of self mutilation, numbers and letter written backwards, listen to their music and if it's "death metal" or
horrorcore, talk to them. Also pay attention if they begin wearing dark-style clothing and make-up."

I'd be more worried if my kids started wearing khakis, loafers, and pink oxfords. That's just me I guess.

 

[ziggy]

I'd like to call that into question before we let another "fact" be generated here. I haven't read word one about a report of "occult stuff" that might have been written in Sharpie (tm)

While I appreciate the attempt to keep the actual facts straight, the comment was made with "thinking" "maybe" and there were reports of an occult connection and possibly symbols in the news media; not specifically sharpie written ones, but that was speculation by a poster which is kind of what we do here even with the facts (what little we have).

At this point if someone is bizarre enough to be that into horrorcore and then bludgeon people beyond recognition and hang out in the wreckage, they might be bizarre enough to write on the walls or the bodies with a sharpie no? It's just wondering, not trying to state a fact.

 

[ziggy]

An "occult expert" being called in and finding occult symbols are not at all the same thing. That's almost as sloppy as the suggestion yesterday that McCroskey had been charged with 1 count capital murder in furtherance of terrorism because of a news report that noted that capital murder isn't a single charge and then listed that as one possible cause for the charge.

It's things like that which get remember later as facts when they were not factual at all. Details like that can make a big difference when trying to figure things out. It's hard enough to make sense of things as it is.

That would be me you are accusing of being sloppy. Yes, it's hard enough to make sense of things so I was trying to figure out how you get 6 counts capital murder with four dead people and reading the news report it was easy to misconstrue.

Are you aware that instead of being critical and snarky you could be very helpful? I appreciate knowing the fact versus the fiction and don't mind being corrected at all - but you call yourself out when you do it in a way that is degrading, or condescending so for your own sake, please refrain from insinuating that some of us -the lowly beneath thee - are in here just mucking it up for the intellectuals OK?

 

[wadahoot]

Again, why all over the place? Why is the movie in the car? What's up with all the stuff he put in the car but didn't put in his bag to take out of town with him?

The info in the latest news reports are that LE believed Sam was possibly trying to leave the area in the car, so he threw everything in and took off. If he was going to be in the car all the way to Cali, he didn't need it all together in his bag.

Then, when he went into the ditch and the tow truck and cops were there, he didn't have time or didn't want to draw attention to himself packing up his stuff. IIRC, we talked about how he went off to the side and smoked when the cops came, during our discussion of why the cops wouldn't have smelled him when all the other people did that came into direct contact with Sam.

 

[wadahoot]

I thought that I had read that he spoke to Sam at the door of the house but I could be wrong, in any case I would bet the note was from Mel's father either left with Sam or left at the door and Sam took it in as you say.

I think the documents said that Mr. Wells 'saw' Sam ... remember we wondered if he just saw him through the windows, since there was no note of him speaking with Sam?

So my guess is that either Sam was walking back from Kroger and took off when he saw Mr. W sitting in front of the house, keeping Mr. Wells from talking to him; or Sam simply didn't answer the door and Mr. W saw him inside (of course, had that have been me, I would have called the cops if Sam wouldn't answer and my girl was no where to be found, but we don't know the circumstances).

 

[wadahoot]

The only problem I have with this theory is that he didn't take the pills. It seems he was out there alone for a while.

Out there, meaning on Poorhouse Road? Remember that we know/think that a neighbor called cops about a suspicious car, so maybe he wasn't out there all that long - ??