VA - Hannah Elizabeth Graham, 18, Charlottesville, 13 Sept 2014 - #16 *ARREST*

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NBC29 ‏@NBC29 1h
Jesse Matthew could be back in Charlottesville as soon as today. We've got an update on the #HannahGraham case ahead on your #NewsatSunrise.

https://twitter.com/NBC29
 
Apologies for OT post:
A reminder to our regular trial watchers....Beginning at 9 a.m.EST, first full day of testimony, live streamed, in Michael Dunn retrial.
 
steelman said:
I've been wondering about that "intent to defile" charge ever since they announced it. I read the legal description and all of that, and then I began trying to figure out how it would apply here. It almost seems like one of those charges they levy "so we can at least get him on something".

Just a shot in the dark here, but I'm thinking maybe he was taking pictures or video clips of her with his cell phone that night, unbeknownst to her. If she accepted a ride with him, maybe he took even more pictures of her after she was in his vehicle, especially if she had passed out or was close to it.

The key here is the word "intent". How would you establish that ? Helping a drunk girl walk along the sidewalk ? Starting up a chat with a tipsy woman that is out partying all night ? Putting your arm around someone that really isn't accepting of it ?

Is flirting with a pretty girl considered "Intent to defile" ?? If that's all it takes, then I would think that charge should be levied on 50 guys per night in those bars.

That charge by itself seems weak to me. However, coupled with additional evidence such as cell phone photos or video clips, it may have some teeth behind it depending what is shown. If there are no photo's or videos, just eye witness statements, then I have no idea how they would make that charge stick.
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I agree with you, steelman. I think Chief Longo really wanted to have a warrent out on JM that was far more serious than the reckless driving one. I think the DA balked. Being an attorney himself, or at least having had the law school training, Longo likely came up with the charge which seems to me to be custom made for this situation. Something the DA was willing to commit to pursing. The examples in describing this charge do cover this case, though proving it in a court of law with nothing else than what LE has shared with us would be tough. I believe Longo came up with the charge, not because of new evidence either, or much new evidence since the FIRST of the forensic results were not received until afterwards. THough he could have gotten an off the record report from Forensics.

I so agree that what JM is done all of the time. Men hang out at bars for that very purpose, and to be fair, women go to them to get picked up. Where the line is crossed, when it becomes "intent to defile" is when there is no agreement between those two parties to the activities concering the body of one of them. When you take the person other than where she wants to be taken , when you touch her or do anything to her without consent, and go further. What we see at the mal is perfectly fine. At those points in time all interaction between Hannah and JM are consensjual. The witness actually thought the two knew each other. No resistance or crying out or pulling back on part of Hannah one JM approached her and put his arms around her. Zip. Plus she stood outside of Tempo WAITING for him. No one tying her to a post. FOr a good 15 minutes while JM went into the place, maybe buying liquor to go (?), using the restroom, paying a tab he left, finishing a drink he left, picking up something he left (he was there earlier in the evening, it has been confirmed), or any of those things, doesn't matter what, all that much. She was waiting outside for him in full view of others who have confirmed this.

It's what may have happened afterwards and how JM is acting that has led to the charge. If Hannah had NOT disappeared, if JM told LE where he went afterwards and it could be confirmed with him dropping of Hannah alive and well, he would not be in this predicament. When you pick up a lost, confused, inebriated young woman, and that is last sign of her and you are the last person to be traced to her, and it's been days, going into over a week, and your refuse to give and infoand flee, you look pretty bad.

Though, I don't believe JM's pick ups were savory and I think they always had ill intent, that isn't what is driving the case here. it's that one of his pick ups have disappeared.
 
steelman said:
Per the article you linked above:
It still sounds like a pretty slippery slope to me. They had better have a lot more than this to go on............or this guy is going to walk.
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Forensics was not out yet, though unofficial results might have been fed to Longo before that. I agree with you, but given JM's carelessness as his mode of operation and living life, I have no doubt that there will be plenty of evidence. But if there is not and JM stays mum, it will be a problem. I think that's why the DA was so reluctant to press any charges even though LE was gung ho for it. I agree that charging JM for the "abduction with intent to defile" and the reckless driving and going all out with that wanted poster was a tactical move to keep JM right where LE can watch him.

However, I also firmly believe that it is a major job of LE to keep the public safe, and JM does not seem to be all that stable with his reactions and history and carelessness. All of this is putting tremendous strain on him, and who knows how someone will react to this? His history is not good that way. I think putting JM behind bars is the safest thing for JM even, his friends, family and the public at large. If I were someone close to him, his mother even, at this point I think I'd feel better with him in jail, under observation until things sort themselves out, if he indeed remains innocent of any wrongdoing with Hannah. He is putting a lot of people at risk running around loose., and himself as well. It's not like he is a calm, cool, collected guy. He's now put his sister (and her car) in direct jeopardy, wasted LE time and effort, and now has more charges against him and made a production on national news with all of this. It would have been a lot cleaner had he just been able to be charged with something, anything and taken into custody from the get go. I blame Longo and the DA for how this part was handled, by the way. I am not in the choir that is singing praises of him and how this was handled even though there are some fantastic, insightful experienced forum members who think this is being well handled. I do not agree.
 
All night kept awakecthis scenario: JM sees pretty girl. Goes into pick up mode. Sees she's upset. Her cell phone battery dead. Tells her he will go inside tempo, someone he knows there from her dorm? Hannah waits. Fiddles with phone. Goes on briefly sending last text in que. Phone goes dead. (Happens to me) Comes back out with spiked drink. Hannah drinks. Bingo. Off they go. He gets "lucky" in his mind. Goes too far OR she succumbs to drugs. He panics. Leaves/dumps her somewhere. In his mind he didn't Murder her. Goes to PD. When sees lawyer, tells lawyer they "fooled around" but maybe not the rest. lawyer tells him he's screwed. He runs. I am a newbie/lurker. I am big on scenarios and mind sets. This is just a theory. I am sure many ways to shoot it down. I love web sleuths! You guys are brilliant!!!
 
jamicat said:
Forensics was not out yet, though unofficial results might have been fed to Longo before that. I agree with you, but given JM's carelessness as his mode of operation and living life, I have no doubt that there will be plenty of evidence. But if there is not and JM stays mum, it will be a problem. I think that's why the DA was so reluctant to press any charges even though LE was gung ho for it. I agree that charging JM for the "abduction with intent to defile" and the reckless driving and going all out with that wanted poster was a tactical move to keep JM right where LE can watch him.

However, I also firmly believe that it is a major job of LE to keep the public safe, and JM does not seem to be all that stable with his reactions and history and carelessness. All of this is putting tremendous strain on him, and who knows how someone will react to this? His history is not good that way. I think putting JM behind bars is the safest thing for JM even, his friends, family and the public at large. If I were someone close to him, his mother even, at this point I think I'd feel better with him in jail, under observation until things sort themselves out, if he indeed remains innocent of any wrongdoing with Hannah. He is putting a lot of people at risk running around loose., and himself as well. It's not like he is a calm, cool, collected guy. He's now put his sister (and her car) in direct jeopardy, wasted LE time and effort, and now has more charges against him and made a production on national news with all of this. It would have been a lot cleaner had he just been able to be charged with something, anything and taken into custody from the get go. I blame Longo and the DA for how this part was handled, by the way. I am not in the choir that is singing praises of him and how this was handled even though there are some fantastic, insightful experienced forum members who think this is being well handled. I do not agree.
Click to expand...

bbm, Me too. My opinion is that JM would not have left the area had the state boys not been up in his face on that day he drove recklessly he would have stayed put. When the evidence comes back to show he was involved (if that happens) then he could have silently been taken in. Hell had they layed low he probably would have continued going to work, who knows. It' was wrong the way it was done, jmo idk.
 
OK...I tried to keep an open mind while waiting for more evidence and witness statements to come forward but after reading Coy's article I am just horrified.

:thud:
 
ninij9 said:
All night kept awakecthis scenario: JM sees pretty girl. Goes into pick up mode. Sees she's upset. Her cell phone battery dead. Tells her he will go inside tempo, someone he knows there from her dorm? Hannah waits. Fiddles with phone. Goes on briefly sending last text in que. Phone goes dead. (Happens to me) Comes back out with spiked drink. Hannah drinks. Bingo. Off they go. He gets "lucky" in his mind. Goes too far OR she succumbs to drugs. He panics. Leaves/dumps her somewhere. In his mind he didn't Murder her. Goes to PD. When sees lawyer, tells lawyer they "fooled around" but maybe not the rest. lawyer tells him he's screwed. He runs. I am a newbie/lurker. I am big on scenarios and mind sets. This is just a theory. I am sure many ways to shoot it down. I love web sleuths! You guys are brilliant!!!
Click to expand...

See and this is what I think - if he DID kill her (because let's be honest, we don't know at this point), it was accidental.
 
Elley Mae said:
Yes, it is. Seems that JM did have a change of clothes in his car. He is in a different shirt then the white shirt in the video. Could be why they went back for clothes, iirc. jmo idk
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I think it's the same shirt and it just looks white b/c of the quality of the video.
 
bakerlady said:
OK...I tried to keep an open mind while waiting for more evidence and witness statements to come forward but after reading Coy's article I am just horrified.

:thud:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I feel the same way after reading that. I try so hard to give people the benefit of a doubt (simply because my friend, acquitted of murder, has been target of several made up news articles), but idk anymore..
 
steelman said:
I've been wondering about that "intent to defile" charge ever since they announced it. I read the legal description and all of that, and then I began trying to figure out how it would apply here. It almost seems like one of those charges they levy "so we can at least get him on something".

Just a shot in the dark here, but I'm thinking maybe he was taking pictures or video clips of her with his cell phone that night, unbeknownst to her. If she accepted a ride with him, maybe he took even more pictures of her after she was in his vehicle, especially if she had passed out or was close to it.

The key here is the word "intent". How would you establish that ? Helping a drunk girl walk along the sidewalk ? Starting up a chat with a tipsy woman that is out partying all night ? Putting your arm around someone that really isn't accepting of it ?

Is flirting with a pretty girl considered "Intent to defile" ?? If that's all it takes, then I would think that charge should be levied on 50 guys per night in those bars.

That charge by itself seems weak to me. However, coupled with additional evidence such as cell phone photos or video clips, it may have some teeth behind it depending what is shown. If there are no photo's or videos, just eye witness statements, then I have no idea how they would make that charge stick.
Click to expand...

I don't get why so many people are having a hard time understanding the charge. It's not an "intent to defile" charge it's "abduction with intent to defile." Abduction is a lesser included charge - a class 5 felony. The intent to defile motivation raises it to a class 2 felony. It's essentially an abduction that is motivated by a sexual purpose, i.e., intent to molest.

Here is an example of a set of facts that resulted in an abduction with intent to defile conviction upheld on appeal:

On August 1, 1994, at approximately 3:00 p.m., Donna Fortney exited the Spotsylvania Mall building and walked to her car in the parking lot. After she entered her car and closed the door,
Wagstaff approached the open driver's-side window. Startling Ms. Fortney, he told her that he had seen fire coming from the tail pipe of her car when she arrived at the mall. As they conversed briefly about the car, Wagstaff crouched down beside Ms. Fortney's car placing his hands on the window ledge. Suddenly, Wagstaff's voice changed to a "threatening" or "controlling" tone. He opened the driver's-side door without Ms.
Fortney's permission and ordered her to "move over." Wagstaff's hand was on the fly of his pants and his fly was unzipped. Ms. Fortney kicked Wagstaff in the torso. He fell backwards against a van parked in the next space. Ms. Fortney screamed for help, attracting the attention of another woman, who also screamed. Wagstaff fled, but was apprehended by three men. When Ms. Fortney saw Wagstaff after he had been caught, she noticed that the fly of his pants was still open and that a toy gun was protruding from the waistband.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/1040952.txt
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Here's another description of a conviction:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/28/AR2009012803534.html

The suspect was the last person to be seen with HG. According to the Coy Barefoot article, witnesses reportedly have her being very drunk, even unable to stand up. Witnesses also say the suspect was drinking, very inappropriately grabby with women all night, and had his hands on HG. HG is missing and there is no reason to believe that she simply vanished on her own. They also have the Liberty accusation. The warrant came back after some forensics - we don't know what they are yet. Presumably there is something else. So they get over the probable cause hurdle. We don't know what they have or don't have. Might they only have enough for probable cause and not enough for a conviction? Yeah, we don't know the evidence they've got.
 
Rodenberg had just tossed back a red fish when Matthew approached.

"He seemed real nice. He was real soft spoken," Rodenberg said. "(He) said he was down here from New Jersey and was looking for a job. I told him if I caught another red fish he could have it."

Matthew told him that his name was George, Rodenberg said. Nothing really seemed out of the ordinary until the police showed up after a female caller reported a suspicious person.
Click to expand...

(Article also states that JM says the Liberty rape was actually consensual sex - it's being discussed in the Liberty thread)

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/us/virginia-hannah-graham/?c=&page=0
 
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