That would be pretty rare indeed--so either LE messed up and doesn't have the correct prints and hair (and I doubt this) or either this perp is so good that he never gets caught--meaning this wasn't his first time.
VA VA - Michael, 50, Mary, 36, & Jennifer Short, 9, Bassett, 15 Aug 2002
- Thread starter Doyle
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That would be pretty rare indeed--so either LE messed up and doesn't have the correct prints and hair (and I doubt this) or either this perp is so good that he never gets caught--meaning this wasn't his first time.
Not sure if it helps but I looked up a few articles on 22s used to kill.
I do not know how accurate the info is so, as always, be sure to check it for accuracy.
22s used in killings and executions:
". . .The Mafia's current version of Murder, Inc. is a squad of professional
hit men armed with silencer-equipped, .22-cal. automatic pistols. . ."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879765,00.html
". . .One final word. The Israeli Mossad arms its agents with .22 caliber pistols. What they lack in
ammunition size they make up for in more accurate shooting because of low recoil - and by
firing more shots. A shot in the head with a .22 will make the target just as dead as a shot
in the head with a .45. . . ."
http://www.americanfirearms.org/learn_shoot.php
". . .Deer can be killed with a .22 down to a .22 short, the issue is what distance do you
want to be effective. I have owned a deer farm for the last 20 years and have killed hundreds
of deer with a .22 caliber. If you want the deer to die quickly the animal must be shot
in the brain cavity. . ."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Could_you_kill_a_deer_with_a_22_cal_rifle
I do not know how accurate the info is so, as always, be sure to check it for accuracy.
22s used in killings and executions:
". . .The Mafia's current version of Murder, Inc. is a squad of professional
hit men armed with silencer-equipped, .22-cal. automatic pistols. . ."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879765,00.html
". . .One final word. The Israeli Mossad arms its agents with .22 caliber pistols. What they lack in
ammunition size they make up for in more accurate shooting because of low recoil - and by
firing more shots. A shot in the head with a .22 will make the target just as dead as a shot
in the head with a .45. . . ."
http://www.americanfirearms.org/learn_shoot.php
". . .Deer can be killed with a .22 down to a .22 short, the issue is what distance do you
want to be effective. I have owned a deer farm for the last 20 years and have killed hundreds
of deer with a .22 caliber. If you want the deer to die quickly the animal must be shot
in the brain cavity. . ."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Could_you_kill_a_deer_with_a_22_cal_rifle
Thanks for the info. This is totally different than what I've always been told, but I stand corrected. So I went and googled this, and as I already knew a .22 is quieter which is one plus for using it, and will work at point blank range. I didn't know that professionals used it. Thanks!
less0305
The face is familiar, but I can't quite remember m
Snipped for space:
Don't all law enforcement agencies have employee finger prints on file also? Would this also mean the prints didn't match any of the LE officers in the area that were or were not involved in the corruption case?
curious_mom
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Thanks for the important info. I should know better by now to do my research instead of reporting what our local cable station says. I stand corrected :blushing:
You're welcome and sorry if I came off grumpy. I had some surgery earlier this week and I haven't been sleeping well.
The phone lines having been cut does seem to show some level of planning
but I have found it is not too unusual a thing to find in a murder,
as a quick & simple web search showed:
' . . .Police found that the phone lines leading into the home had been cut,
disabling all communications to the dwelling. . .'
http://www.altereddimensions.net/crime/BTKBindTortureKill.aspx
'. . . Donna Ott attempted to call police, but the phone lines had been cut. . . .'
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...d-for-girls-killer-in-2002-Layton-murder.html
". . .Finally, he moved to the telephone and tried to call for help, but the phone lines had been cut. . ."
http://staging.element74.com/capecounty/MajorCaseSqaud/MCS11.aspx
'. . . because their phone lines had been cut . . .'
http://www.jdnews.com/news/lehman-11063-mcclain-mosley.html
' . . . Three elderly women found dead in their beds. Three homes left unlocked
and three phone lines cut or ripped apart. . .'
http://www.shelbystar.com/news/rape-43838-eugene-witness.html
'. . . were brutally murdered last October. Before their deaths, their cable and
phone lines had been cut twice and a note reading *advertiser censored* was left on their door. . . .'
http://www.advocate.com/News/News_Features/The_House_at_Heartland_Crossing/
'. . . They also discovered the phone lines had been cut. . . .'
http://www.q13fox.com/community/wamostwanted/kcpq-071409-wmw-donnaosteen,0,1332948.story
'. . . a search of the exterior of the house showed that the phone lines had been cut. . . .'
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/jun/28/anna-green-murder-trial-under-way/
********************
I am a bit interested though in the type of tool mark left on the wires when they were cut.
This might match the type of tools carried by telephone workers or might not
or the marks might show a wire cut made by someone not trained to work with such wires.
but I have found it is not too unusual a thing to find in a murder,
as a quick & simple web search showed:
' . . .Police found that the phone lines leading into the home had been cut,
disabling all communications to the dwelling. . .'
http://www.altereddimensions.net/crime/BTKBindTortureKill.aspx
'. . . Donna Ott attempted to call police, but the phone lines had been cut. . . .'
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...d-for-girls-killer-in-2002-Layton-murder.html
". . .Finally, he moved to the telephone and tried to call for help, but the phone lines had been cut. . ."
http://staging.element74.com/capecounty/MajorCaseSqaud/MCS11.aspx
'. . . because their phone lines had been cut . . .'
http://www.jdnews.com/news/lehman-11063-mcclain-mosley.html
' . . . Three elderly women found dead in their beds. Three homes left unlocked
and three phone lines cut or ripped apart. . .'
http://www.shelbystar.com/news/rape-43838-eugene-witness.html
'. . . were brutally murdered last October. Before their deaths, their cable and
phone lines had been cut twice and a note reading *advertiser censored* was left on their door. . . .'
http://www.advocate.com/News/News_Features/The_House_at_Heartland_Crossing/
'. . . They also discovered the phone lines had been cut. . . .'
http://www.q13fox.com/community/wamostwanted/kcpq-071409-wmw-donnaosteen,0,1332948.story
'. . . a search of the exterior of the house showed that the phone lines had been cut. . . .'
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/jun/28/anna-green-murder-trial-under-way/
********************
I am a bit interested though in the type of tool mark left on the wires when they were cut.
This might match the type of tools carried by telephone workers or might not
or the marks might show a wire cut made by someone not trained to work with such wires.
:+:MrTT:+:
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QUOTE...
I am a bit interested though in the type of tool mark left on the wires when they were cut.
This might match the type of tools carried by telephone workers or might not
or the marks might show a wire cut made by someone not trained to work with such wires...END OF QUOTE...
That is a good quote.
I to would like to know the answer to that question.
They could have seen using there tools, if the cut was back and forth or straight threw the line like a snip.
Which would tell us if it was a knife or a *snip tool(*wire cutter).
Mr short being in the moving business, it would seem perhaps someone working for him was using tools to cut/snip wires somewhere in the mobile home before moving. A tool one would have carried in there utility belt perhaps.
But my real question about the phone line was this.
If the Shorts had cell phones, why cut/snip the land-line phone?
If the shorts did-not own any cell phones, then yes cut the land-line phone wire to prevent anyone from calling out, pushing 911 or prevent anyone from calling in during the murder. As far as i know, there was no security system attached to the house that would have become disabled after the wire cutting.
Did the killer know before hand, the shorts did not have cell phones?? From your example above, it seems that when phone lines to a home are cut, its because the person whom did it, was planning on spending sometime in side the house. In this case it seemed the killer did-not stay long at the shorts. So I am just confused on why the need to cut the wires outside?
I have wondered, if there were any phone records to show the shorts had called the phone company earlier in the day to report a phone problem. If not, then that may indicate they had cell phones or that the line was cut/snipped right before the murders?
There is that chance, that Jennifer was taking as an afterthought.
Perhaps the killer was going to kill all inside, but decided at the last moment to take the girl and kill her later.
Or to make it look like she was the intended target all along, to through the police off.
But all is just speculation on my Part.
I to would like to know the answer to that question.
They could have seen using there tools, if the cut was back and forth or straight threw the line like a snip.
Which would tell us if it was a knife or a *snip tool(*wire cutter).
Mr short being in the moving business, it would seem perhaps someone working for him was using tools to cut/snip wires somewhere in the mobile home before moving. A tool one would have carried in there utility belt perhaps.
But my real question about the phone line was this.
If the Shorts had cell phones, why cut/snip the land-line phone?
If the shorts did-not own any cell phones, then yes cut the land-line phone wire to prevent anyone from calling out, pushing 911 or prevent anyone from calling in during the murder. As far as i know, there was no security system attached to the house that would have become disabled after the wire cutting.
Did the killer know before hand, the shorts did not have cell phones?? From your example above, it seems that when phone lines to a home are cut, its because the person whom did it, was planning on spending sometime in side the house. In this case it seemed the killer did-not stay long at the shorts. So I am just confused on why the need to cut the wires outside?
I have wondered, if there were any phone records to show the shorts had called the phone company earlier in the day to report a phone problem. If not, then that may indicate they had cell phones or that the line was cut/snipped right before the murders?
There is that chance, that Jennifer was taking as an afterthought.
Perhaps the killer was going to kill all inside, but decided at the last moment to take the girl and kill her later.
Or to make it look like she was the intended target all along, to through the police off.
But all is just speculation on my Part.
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well, I guess I'd say they need to check them again. What we know is that Joseph Duncan's crimes were done in the west but he had a jeep that was stolen from Missouri. They might have not even bothered to check data from the west, thinking perps stay where they know. I don't know enough about him to get him on the east coast. Family vacatipns, old relatives, special doctors, etc.
All I know is that his mode of operation was the same as with the Groene Family, and after killing the parents, he took the children away from the home and into the woods. Imo, JS was the reason for the crime, it was her the perp wanted all along, but simply enjoys killing.
Same lunancy, imo as JD.
Whatever though, just throwing it out there.
I will go see if I can find if he cut the phone cords. I know he stalked the house for a few days before he made his attack.
moo
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From http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=27031&back=archives
Joseph Duncan... the black and white is Jim Verney aka, Ernest, in his younger days.
From Sheriff Perry:[/quote
the man was “very rugged looking,” seemed to be in his mid-40s and looked similar to television host Mike Rowe or the late actor Jim Varney, according to the show. Varney was known for his portrayal of the “Ernest” character.
http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=27031&back=archives
Mike Rowe
pics taken from google image
moo
Joseph Duncan... the black and white is Jim Verney aka, Ernest, in his younger days.
From Sheriff Perry:[/quote
the man was “very rugged looking,” seemed to be in his mid-40s and looked similar to television host Mike Rowe or the late actor Jim Varney, according to the show. Varney was known for his portrayal of the “Ernest” character.
http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=27031&back=archives
Mike Rowe
pics taken from google image
moo
Thank You for the kind words.
Very possible but in most of the cases I ran across in my simple web search the line cutting appeared
to be planned. If one planned to cut wires then one brought a cutting tool to the crime.
To plan to cut a phone line but not bring a tool to use would seem to indicate the killer knew in advance
such a tool would indeed be there to use and would not need to waste time looking for something
& was willing to risk being seen when picking up the tool from whereever it was normally stored before
entering the home to commit the crime.
An employee could certainly have done the deed but I think LE would have solved it a
long time ago if that was the case.
At moment I am leaning towards it being someone who brought his own kill kit with him
(I do not know if this indicates a grudge kill or a serial killer since I do not know
the condition and details of the bodies found- the stuff not in the news reports.)
& who
had driven through the area before, somone who might have been choosing a person to victimize
and a place to dispose of the body.
Maybe not an expert on the area but someone who took a look around a time or two.
If Jennifer was his chosen victim then where did he see her to choose her? Had her pic appeared online?
Sorry, I do not know if they had cells or not but not all killers were thinking:+:MrTT:+: said:
about cell phone coverage back then. I know this because in at least one or
two of the cases I recently websearched (about cutting phonelines in murder
& attempted murder cases) the perp cut the landlines only to be foiled when
the victim was able to call out on their cell phone.
Still if you are a killer but don't know for sure if the victims have a cell phone then
cutting the land line helps cut down on the odds of them calling out for help.
I don't know if the perp took much time in the home or not.
(I wonder if luminol or other evidence showed if the home was searched by the killer.)
But he was going into a home with at least 3 people inside so cutting the odds
by cutting the landline seems like a few seconds worth spending.
This crime has some minor odd twists that I haven't yet sorted out.
Some things make me think of a younger killer and some make
me think of an older killer. For now I am guessing the age at somewhere between
25 and 32, young enough to think like a young person & yet having lived long
enough to begin planning ahead a bit.
I am guessing there is some evidence being held back from the public
and I do not know
if it indicates that this crime was a personal grudge or a crime committed by a stranger
robber/killer or a serial killer.
curious_mom
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I have no way of knowing for sure if the Short's had cell phones, it was never released. If I were to make a guess, I would say probably not. From what I have been able to gather, these were very "simple" people. Also, in the area where they lived, back in 2002, I know first-hand cell service was almost non-existent. (I was driving thru the area and almost hit a huge bull, standing in the middle of the highway, so I called 911 from my cell, which was probably the best carrier in the area at the time. They couldn't hear me. After a few frustrating tries, dispatch told me to go to the nearest pay phone & call back).
As far as where the Short family home is located. It is on what locals would call our major highway. It is not like an interstate, but a 4 lane highway with a median in between the north & south bound lanes. There are businesses before, after, and close to the home, and a flea market across the street. There are other houses in the near vicinity, but not a rocks throw away. (You can google map or google earth 10820 Virginia Avenue, Bassett, VA, go to Satellite and zoom in to walk. This will show you a pic of a brick building, and just past that building is a small restaurant which was also a small motel. The person who found the Short's bodies, actually lived in that motel. Iirc, dogs were able to track Jennifer's scent back to the restaurant/motel because it was very common for her to walk there.) If you pan to your left just a bit from point A, the brick house that you see was their home. The map will show an icon that says Carter Bank & Trust, but the bank is actually on up the road a bit so ignore the icon.
As far as where the Short family home is located. It is on what locals would call our major highway. It is not like an interstate, but a 4 lane highway with a median in between the north & south bound lanes. There are businesses before, after, and close to the home, and a flea market across the street. There are other houses in the near vicinity, but not a rocks throw away. (You can google map or google earth 10820 Virginia Avenue, Bassett, VA, go to Satellite and zoom in to walk. This will show you a pic of a brick building, and just past that building is a small restaurant which was also a small motel. The person who found the Short's bodies, actually lived in that motel. Iirc, dogs were able to track Jennifer's scent back to the restaurant/motel because it was very common for her to walk there.) If you pan to your left just a bit from point A, the brick house that you see was their home. The map will show an icon that says Carter Bank & Trust, but the bank is actually on up the road a bit so ignore the icon.
Anyone with insider information must be verified. Please do not use leading posts that state you have information you can't share. It is called "baiting" and is not allowed on WS.
Here's info on getting verified:
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is it possible that Jennifer was taken as an after thought because the perp was also a pervert and wanted to have sex with a child? This is really a sick crime and I pray that the killer(s) are found. With the fingerprints and hair it does seem like it should be solved.
:+:MrTT:+:
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That is a good theory as any other.
Why would a predator cut lines, and then kill the family just to take the young girl. Most cases i have read, the girl was taken while away from the home. Such as going to or from school etc.
This person was sloppy. He left prints and hair DNA.
It just seems there was an easier way to take the girl besides the way it was done.
Being 9 years old, i wonder if Jennifer kept a small diary/journal somewhere hidden in the home that only she knew about. And if it is still there hidden somewhere, i wonder if she wrote in it any names of persons that had shown her any special interest for a lack of a better word.
But perhaps she did, and they found it long ago, and it contain no relevant information on a possible person of interest.
This theory is based upon the speculation that Jennifer was the intended target.
I still have suspicion that there were two, and not 1.
Sooo was the killer pretending to have a truck to sell?
If so, then how did he know anyone was in the market
for a new truck?
'. . . The bodies of Michael and Mary Short were discovered
in their Henry County home on Aug. 15, 2002 . . .'
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2009/jan/16/fbi_releases_new_sketch_in_short_case-ar-388235/
'. . . went to his employer's house, expecting to drive his boss to Christiansburg to buy a truck. . . ."
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/172541
'. . . The vehicle is described as a 1998-2002, white, single-cab,
two-ton flatbed stake body truck with wooden rails . . . '
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2009/jan/16/fbi_releases_new_sketch_in_short_case-ar-388235/
Whatever became of the lead of this sketch?
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2010/aug/15/jennifer_short_family_murders_case_8_years_later-ar-468288/
and this aged version of the same pic?
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2009/mar/17/fbi_releases_aged_sketch_in_short_family_murders_c-ar-387219/
Note:Bolding done by me.
ETA: I read previous posts that seem to cast doubt on the sighting of
the truck but until LE rules it out as a viable lead it seemed good to look
at the info as one more possibility & then see how it might play into
the crime. . . .looking at it from different angles.
If so, then how did he know anyone was in the market
for a new truck?
'. . . The bodies of Michael and Mary Short were discovered
in their Henry County home on Aug. 15, 2002 . . .'
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2009/jan/16/fbi_releases_new_sketch_in_short_case-ar-388235/
'. . . went to his employer's house, expecting to drive his boss to Christiansburg to buy a truck. . . ."
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/172541
'. . . The vehicle is described as a 1998-2002, white, single-cab,
two-ton flatbed stake body truck with wooden rails . . . '
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2009/jan/16/fbi_releases_new_sketch_in_short_case-ar-388235/
Whatever became of the lead of this sketch?
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2010/aug/15/jennifer_short_family_murders_case_8_years_later-ar-468288/
and this aged version of the same pic?
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2009/mar/17/fbi_releases_aged_sketch_in_short_family_murders_c-ar-387219/
Note:Bolding done by me.
ETA: I read previous posts that seem to cast doubt on the sighting of
the truck but until LE rules it out as a viable lead it seemed good to look
at the info as one more possibility & then see how it might play into
the crime. . . .looking at it from different angles.
:+:MrTT:+:
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I don't know if this business showing at the above link was there in 2002, but it is directly across the street from the shorts. And there's a white cabin of a truck that does fit the composite drawing of the truck the eye witness gave. Looking at the truck at the above link, i wonder if they may-have seen one of the business trucks from that facility on that night?
Nice thinking. It certainly is something to consider.
curious_mom
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Thank you for posting that pic! That is part of the flea market that was and still is across the street from the Short family home. I've often wondered the same thing as you, if that truck was parked there way back in 2002. I know the flea market was there, but for the life of me cannot recall if they were using that corner to park those trucks in at the time
