VA - Nicole Lovell, 13, Blacksburg, 27 January 2016 #6 *Arrests*

[courtfollower89]

Do you think law enforcement then has enough hard evidence that you do you NOT see them offering DE a plea deal to escape a trial? Or is that always on the table, both as a financial incentive for the state and as a way to have the victim's family not go through it?

As far as Natalie and the crazy town defense, I see this back-firing on her something fierce. I see rather the prosection offering a further reduction in charges for her cooperation and her team grabbing it and shoving it down her throat because 15-20 years is better than 40+.

I would agree with you there on NK! Probably why her lawyers have her singing. I don't know though with DE . . It reminds me of Jesse Matthew he has so much overwhelming evidence against him and he was offered the Alford plea. I guess it's up to the states DA.

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[courtfollower89]

Is the Alford plea something the prosection has to agree for you to have the option to plea? I understand it to be when an accused does not admit to guilt, but admits you have enough evidence to convict them of the crime. Is that correct? I would assume most would enter this plea if given the chance.

That is correct


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[BUF]

I don't think LE will plea anything except not guilty to murder. I think he will gamble by going to trial, not negotiating. It's hard to read his strategy since he and his lawyer have been silent except for his, "The truth can set me free" statement (whatever his exact words were).

I think NK's team is negotiating like crazy, imo, and will turn against DE at every opportunity.

Do we know yet if they will be tried together or not?

jmo

I agree, DE will fight this. I wonder if they'll put the DP on the table.

Yes, NK started talking as soon as she was confronted with the surveillance photo and sounds like she didn't stop even when an attorney was obtained for her. I have a feeling that her attorney will try to work out some reduced sentenced for her in return for her testimony against DE.

Does anyone remember the Seth Mazzaglia trial and his girlfriend Kat in the murder of Lizzie Marriott? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...*S-Mazzaglia-guilty*&highlight=Seth+Mazzaglia

 

[Inthedetails]

I agree, DE will fight this. I wonder if they'll put the DP on the table.

Yes, NK started talking as soon as she was confronted with the surveillance photo and sounds like she didn't stop even when an attorney was obtained for her. I have a feeling that her attorney will try to work out some reduced sentenced for her in return for her testimony against DE.

Does anyone remember the Seth Mazzaglia trial and his girlfriend Kat in the murder of Lizzie Marriott? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...*S-Mazzaglia-guilty*&highlight=Seth+Mazzaglia

Did NK lead LE to the body? IIRC, she did. If that is true, I'm sure she will ask for some consideration for that.

I don't think they will ask for the death penalty. He's so young and without a previous record - I think it would be hard for a jury to condemn him to death. However, the planning of the murder will weigh heavily, imo, and he will get a long sentence in my prediction. This wasn't an "impulse" killing in the heat of emotions....quite the opposite.

Predictions from my armchair, just opinions.

 

[wyome]

I don't think LE will plea anything except not guilty to murder. I think he will gamble by going to trial, not negotiating. It's hard to read his strategy since he and his lawyer have been silent except for his, "The truth can set me free" statement (whatever his exact words were).

I think NK's team is negotiating like crazy, imo, and will turn against DE at every opportunity.

Do we know yet if they will be tried together or not?

jmo

I agree that DE will plead not guilty, but wow I cannot imagine what his defense will be. The only thing I suspect they can do would be to pick apart everything piece of evidence (and their methods of collection) the prosecution's collected so far. I keep trying to imagine what DE's team's opening statements to the jury would be, but you're right -- they've been so tight lipped, it hard to do anything but speculate.

 

[Inthedetails]

I agree that DE will plead not guilty, but wow I cannot imagine what his defense will be. The only thing I suspect they can do would be to pick apart everything piece of evidence (and their methods of collection) the prosecution's collected so far. I keep trying to imagine what DE's team's opening statements to the jury would be, but you're right -- they've been so tight lipped, it hard to do anything but speculate.

I agree that DE's team will pick apart the evidence. What else can they do? Will he even take the stand?? I think they are going to force the prosecution to make the case and that's it.

I can't imagine what he could say on the stand that would soften the jury, other than to point out he is young (which is not an excuse, but might save him from the DP).

Unless....he turns this all against NK, that he was lured into this crime by her suggestion and influence. We haven't heard a peep from his side so who knows what they are brewing. It will be very interesting to watch unfold.

jmopinion

 

[Bootsctr]

Alford plea? OMG! Please say it ain't so! An Alford plea was taken by the West Memphis 3, and I still have a bad taste in my mouth. There should have been a re-trial. I know there was hinky business with the jury and other factors, but the information Damian gave regarding what they did to one of the little boys.... uke: Just my opinion on that certain murder case of 3 innocent little boys!!

This is Nicole's thread, and I hope we see a full blown trial. I would be satisfied with life without the option of parole.

 

[Night-owl]

Is the Alford plea something the prosection has to agree for you to have the option to plea? I understand it to be when an accused does not admit to guilt, but admits you have enough evidence to convict them of the crime. Is that correct? I would assume most would enter this plea if given the chance.

Prosecution (and possibly the judge) has to agree to accept any pleas.

I can't see a lot of motivation to accept pleas on significantly lower charges for either defendant. No need for one to testify against the other. I think LI has both of them firmly hooked already.

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[DaleTray]

That all rings true.I have my doubts about DE's questions about kissing a girl. If he's a sociopath, as he claims to be, he would be quite confident in his abilities, especially with a younger girl. And, sociopaths are unlikely, imo, to seek advice from someone else.
I wonder if the questions DE posed to the Pulaski guy were pulling his leg, perhaps part of some online shenanigans that he and/or NK played.

Of course, it's entirely possible DE really did ask how to kiss a girl. Just seems weird to me when we have eons of human history to rely on - young couples manage to figure it! Or, google it!
jmo

I have just sporadically kept up with this case so my opinion can't be worth much. If I try and put myself in a desperate male in this situation I am going to start with seeking indirect help. Needing confirmation of my game plan. I think initial inquiry was to gamer in Pulaski then later NK. I guess it DE starts physical relationship then wants out. Some form of blackmail ensues. DE asked Pulaski guy for advice. Pulaski suggest just ending relationship and cease all contact with underage girl. But that wasn't enough as blackmail continues. DE knows he is in major trouble and Pulaski can't offer a more permanent solution...which sends DE to NK. I can guess DE initially formed his comments in a hypothetical way, something along the lines of "Hey NK, let's say you started an online relationship, it turned sexual, then you want out but the other party doesnt want to end relationship. What would you do?" DE then finds out how committed NK is to helping him out. I personally think DE felt painted into a desperate corner but NK sickly volunteered to ally w/ DE. I am in no way justifying DE's desperate and terrible actions....but for NK to volunteer to jump in and help shows her just as desperate. NK desperate for attention of some type, DE desperate for a solution.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I would agree with you there on NK! Probably why her lawyers have her singing. I don't know though with DE . . It reminds me of Jesse Matthew he has so much overwhelming evidence against him and he was offered the Alford plea. I guess it's up to the states DA.

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Jesse Matthew thought the judge wouldn't give as harsh of a sentence if he took the Alford plea...that didn't work out so well for him...

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[courtfollower89]

I agree that DE's team will pick apart the evidence. What else can they do? Will he even take the stand?? I think they are going to force the prosecution to make the case and that's it.

I can't imagine what he could say on the stand that would soften the jury, other than to point out he is young (which is not an excuse, but might save him from the DP).

Unless....he turns this all against NK, that he was lured into this crime by her suggestion and influence. We haven't heard a peep from his side so who knows what they are brewing. It will be very interesting to watch unfold.

jmopinion

I can see him blaming NK for alot of this. Mainly because of her having the blanket, cell, and bag in her posession and him saying he didn't kill her but "The truth would set him free" I wouldn't be suprised if he would flip and start screaming she did it. This case has had its twists and turns from day one! LE has been tight lipped about evidence (which is good in my opinion).

Social media points to DE.
Police tell us NK tells us DE was killer and she helped . . Could she be lying? Is there forensic evidence? I'm just playing devils advocate for a moment.

Court Follower

 

[cujenn81]

I have just sporadically kept up with this case so my opinion can't be worth much. If I try and put myself in a desperate male in this situation I am going to start with seeking indirect help. Needing confirmation of my game plan. I think initial inquiry was to gamer in Pulaski then later NK. I guess it DE starts physical relationship then wants out. Some form of blackmail ensues. DE asked Pulaski guy for advice. Pulaski suggest just ending relationship and cease all contact with underage girl. But that wasn't enough as blackmail continues. DE knows he is in major trouble and Pulaski can't offer a more permanent solution...which sends DE to NK. I can guess DE initially formed his comments in a hypothetical way, something along the lines of "Hey NK, let's say you started an online relationship, it turned sexual, then you want out but the other party doesnt want to end relationship. What would you do?" DE then finds out how committed NK is to helping him out. I personally think DE felt painted into a desperate corner but NK sickly volunteered to ally w/ DE. I am in no way justifying DE's desperate and terrible actions....but for NK to volunteer to jump in and help shows her just as desperate. NK desperate for attention of some type, DE desperate for a solution.

I go back and forth on this too. While I don't want to diminish or justify DE's actions---because he, without a doubt, knowingly preyed on an innocent child who was desperate for attention just because he wasn't socially savvy or confident enough to meet someone his own age and that makes him the worst of the worst---but sometimes I wonder if (like you suggested) he felt backed into a corner and NK planted the "murder" seed in his head.

I also wonder how these two met each other. When I hear NK say things like "secret club" I think of an online club/message board... not necessarily a video game related board but maybe one about role play? We know he liked to play role play video games and we know she liked theater/drama. At this point, I wouldn’t even discount these two meeting after one responded to a post online that said, “I’m looking for a fellow VT sociopath to plot and murder a teenage girl with… Kik message me if interested”. I’ve said it before and I’m sure I will say it again, but it really makes me sick to think about the callousness of these two.

I can see them both having serious sociopathic tendencies but can actually picture NK taking it a step farther into psychopath land for these reasons:
-the YouTube video project she made for school (the video has since been removed) where her face turned all red, and she looked full of rage, and she was practically spitting on the video camera
-she uses the word “sociopath-in-training” in reference to herself (as if this were something to be proud of)
-she said the secrecy and planning of NL’s murder gave her the “best feeling ever”
-LE claims she was insistent about showing LE where her body was located, while pointing out tire tracks and blood stains on the snow (needs credit to be given where it’s due)
-She initially lied about several things (had no info about NL, heard about her disappearance on the radio, didn’t go to Walmart with DE, said DE first contacted her to ask for help almost 24 hours after NL went missing); if she initially lied about those things, who's to say she's not lying about being present during the crime or even being the person who stabbed her
-Only after LE dumped her phone did she admit to knowing more; only after being presented with the video surveillance did she break down and admit her part in this (this shows a level of manipulation that’s not really being portrayed by the media)
-Her almost giddy demeanor during the booking process
-DE looks gaunt, sleep deprived, and haunted in his mugshot, NK looks sleep deprived, pissed off, annoyed, and disheveled in hers
-She shows up to court in a purple hoodie (possibly to get others to identify her as someone who is still just “a little girl”), while DE shows up in a black suit and tie
-She was fidgety, took notes, and whispered back and forth with her lawyers; he remained still and stared at the table in front of him

I just don’t know. Maybe I only feel like she’s more lethal and evil than he is because she’s talked a lot, whereas he’s said very little. But I don’t think I like where this is going----where she paints herself as a naïve little girl who is also a victim in this tragedy because she was manipulated by DE into helping him commit this crime. Because, regardless if she was the mastermind here or not, she played a much larger and more sinister role than she’d like us to believe.

In South Carolina, any person who aids in the commission of a murder or is an accessory before the fact is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, must be punished in the same manner as the principal felon.. I wish that was also true in VA!

 

[Haayturtle]

This case has really darkened even though I thought it to be impossible. I'm interested to learn how DE and NK first formally met. IMO it was well before her hospital visit with DE as the knight in slimy armor.


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[BUF]

I can see him blaming NK for alot of this. Mainly because of her having the blanket, cell, and bag in her posession and him saying he didn't kill her but "The truth would set him free" I wouldn't be suprised if he would flip and start screaming she did it. This case has had its twists and turns from day one! LE has been tight lipped about evidence (which is good in my opinion).

Social media points to DE.
Police tell us NK tells us DE was killer and she helped . . Could she be lying? Is there forensic evidence? I'm just playing devils advocate for a moment.

Court Follower

It sounds like these items were laying in the car and NK packed them into a duffle bag that was in DE's car and then took them to her dorm room. Most (myself included) have always assumed that it was NK who chose to take those selected items...IDK but could it possibly be the the other way around in which DE told her to take them, so she would be the one caught with them if LE suspected them, setting her up. That statement he made about the truth can set me free (or something like it) has always been unsettling.

As far as forensic evidence, those looked like gouge marks on the left side of DE's nose in his mugshot. If that's the case, they may have been able to retrive his DNA from under Nicole's fingernails.

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news...a7e-1ebd-11e6-83fb-47dfb062c64c.html?mode=jqm

After returning to campus, Keepers placed some of Lovell’s items and leftover cleaning supplies in a duffle bag in Eisenhauer’s car. According to testimony, Keepers brought the duffle bag back with her to her dorm room.

 

[wyome]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/k...cle_c12b86c0-d9fe-535c-80fa-4b05930d1a20.html

Two things that stand out for me (both referenced in above article):

1) But Keepers told police she became involved in the scheme because a bond she shared with Eisenhauer, Hite testified.


“She said she was part of a special club. It was the best club in the world because he understood her,” Hite said.


He understood her. That to me is the most curious part. The "club" speak is more typical of the age group -- high school is defined by sports and clubs, even college is, as there are sororities and fraternities, and even multiple colleges within a university depending on your major. But these tend to be broad groups, sometimes large groups, and not everyone is going to share an intimate friendship. But Natalie felt that this special club (which has yet to be defined, but based on evidence to date, means the two of them conspiring to "get rid of Nicole") was the BEST because he understood her. Obviously, she did not get adequate help for her cutting in middle school. But I am not labeling this as an excuse for her behavior. I actually tend to believe that she learned years earlier that if she provoked certain emotions in her parents, she could get a lot of attention, and less expectations, and a whole lot of doting. Isn't she the one with younger twins as siblings?

Simply, I think Natalie hates herself and has a host of issues, but her self cutting has been replaced with a desire to cut elsewhere. HE UNDERSTANDS ME is both creepy and I think will be very relevant in this case. I think it also speaks volumes to HIS mind (he understands me) and the jury will keep tidbit close.

2)During his own police interviews, Eisenhauer said he had been exchanging messages with Lovell since mid-December under the impression she was 16 or 17 years old, according to testimony. He told police they eventually opened up to each other, as Lovell said she was upset and everyone hated her.

He would later text Natalie that she was blackmailing another guy too.

The fact that Eisenhauer shared with police that Nicole shared her deepest sadness that everyone hated her with David Eisenhauer, and he plotted to kill her instead of build her up and let her down easy, speaks of an evil intent. Put on top of that his blackmailing someone else text, that speaks to me of anger towards women. JMO but I think his relationship with his mom will come into play.

 

[wyome]

It sounds like these items were laying in the car and NK packed them into a duffle bag that was in DE's car and then took them to her dorm room. Most (myself included) have always assumed that it was NK who chose to take those selected items...IDK but could it possibly be the the other way around in which DE told her to take them, so she would be the one caught with them if LE suspected them, setting her up. That statement he made about the truth can set me free (or something like it) has always been unsettling.

As far as forensic evidence, those looked like gouge marks on the left side of DE's nose in his mugshot. If that's the case, they may have been able to retrive his DNA from under Nicole's fingernails.
http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news...a7e-1ebd-11e6-83fb-47dfb062c64c.html?mode=jqm

After returning to campus, Keepers placed some of Lovell’s items and leftover cleaning supplies in a duffle bag in Eisenhauer’s car. According to testimony, Keepers brought the duffle bag back with her to her dorm room.

They look like old pock marks to me, from chicken pox or ache picking? IDK, to me they don't look fresh, but it could be lighting of mug shot.

 

[BUF]

They look like old pock marks to me, from chicken pox or ache picking? IDK, to me they don't look fresh, but it could be lighting of mug shot.

If they are pock marks, they weren't visible in this March 2015 video, but something could have happened after then.
https://youtu.be/V9L2QDhOJVU

 

[NL007]

I find some of the speculation here to be kind of old-fashioned as far as the thinking goes. I think plenty of "normal", average, everyday people can be shy and socially awkward. I don't think it's a given that DE is "touched with Autism" at all. In fact, believe it or not, I've known one person with Asperger's and two with Autism, and I'm still alive to tell the tale. I can think of exactly two murderers with Autism, and thousands upon thousands that didn't have it. Should I now assume everyone without Autism will kill me?

I would say the same about people that self-harm. Self-harmers often have been either sexually, emotionally, or physically abused, or sometimes all three. A lot self-harm because they are used to pain from abuse, some self-harm because they aren't allowed to speak out or be angry so it's an outlet for them, some self-harm because it keeps them from doing something worse, etc. Some people that have self-harmed have murdered people, but the great majority haven't. To say that people that self-harm are creepy, scary, and dangerous because you find what they do shocking is a bit much. People that self-harm are at a much greater risk for suicide, but that's about it. They are violent to themselves, for sure, but it's highly atypical for them to murder.

I have read that people with Borderline Personality Disorder are more likely to be criminals, but so is almost every other person that struggles with any other mental illness. People with BPD are more likely to try to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol so of course they are more likely to go to jail. But, "criminal" and "murderer" are far from synonymous. Not to mention the fact that just because NK was known to cut doesn't mean she's got BPD.

Anyhow, I hate to judge those that judge because I am self-aware enough to know that's highly hypocritical, but I felt I should say something. Fear comes from the unknown, so maybe if those that repeat these outdated and unproven myths researched the conditions they talk so negatively about they'd have different "opinions" about them. God forbid if someone who feels this way would ever have a child or grandchild that struggles with any of these disorders. People with mental illnesses or disorders deserve your support and understanding, not your prejudice and fear.

As far as DE goes, I feel as if he's definitely got NPD. I think that he was sloppy because he legitimately thought he was so smart he'd never get caught. I think as others said NK was giving him his Narcisstic supply, going along with whatever he said as she told him him how smart and amazing she thought he was. I can't really get a handle on NK, however. She doesn't seem overly emotional like a typical BPD, but perhaps she's got a few disorders going on. I think it's really hard to speculate what is going on mentally with a lot of these criminals nowadays since they seem to go from normal to murder in 60 seconds. It will be very interesting to see what their mental health evaluations say.

 

[courtfollower89]

I find some of the speculation here to be kind of old-fashioned as far as the thinking goes. I think plenty of "normal", average, everyday people can be shy and socially awkward. I don't think it's a given that DE is "touched with Autism" at all. In fact, believe it or not, I've known one person with Asperger's and two with Autism, and I'm still alive to tell the tale. I can think of exactly two murderers with Autism, and thousands upon thousands that didn't have it. Should I now assume everyone without Autism will kill me?

I would say the same about people that self-harm. Self-harmers often have been either sexually, emotionally, or physically abused, or sometimes all three. A lot self-harm because they are used to pain from abuse, some self-harm because they aren't allowed to speak out or be angry so it's an outlet for them, some self-harm because it keeps them from doing something worse, etc. Some people that have self-harmed have murdered people, but the great majority haven't. To say that people that self-harm are creepy, scary, and dangerous because you find what they do shocking is a bit much. People that self-harm are at a much greater risk for suicide, but that's about it. They are violent to themselves, for sure, but it's highly atypical for them to murder.

I have read that people with Borderline Personality Disorder are more likely to be criminals, but so is almost every other person that struggles with any other mental illness. People with BPD are more likely to try to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol so of course they are more likely to go to jail. But, "criminal" and "murderer" are far from synonymous. Not to mention the fact that just because NK was known to cut doesn't mean she's got BPD.

Anyhow, I hate to judge those that judge because I am self-aware enough to know that's highly hypocritical, but I felt I should say something. Fear comes from the unknown, so maybe if those that repeat these outdated and unproven myths researched the conditions they talk so negatively about they'd have different "opinions" about them. God forbid if someone who feels this way would ever have a child or grandchild that struggles with any of these disorders. People with mental illnesses or disorders deserve your support and understanding, not your prejudice and fear.

As far as DE goes, I feel as if he's definitely got NPD. I think that he was sloppy because he legitimately thought he was so smart he'd never get caught. I think as others said NK was giving him his Narcisstic supply, going along with whatever he said as she told him him how smart and amazing she thought he was. I can't really get a handle on NK, however. She doesn't seem overly emotional like a typical BPD, but perhaps she's got a few disorders going on. I think it's really hard to speculate what is going on mentally with a lot of these criminals nowadays since they seem to go from normal to murder in 60 seconds. It will be very interesting to see what their mental health evaluations say.

I personally don't think whomever stated this was meaning ALL those whose self harm or ALL those with autism kill. I simply think he/she was wondering if those could be factors that may or may not play into this case. NK is the one who brought up her self harm issues therefore an opinion on many WS is that she may be using it as a (look at poor me deploy) even though she had part in murdering a child. She also brought up she was a victim of bullying, however had no problem plotting this murder that she admit to plotting to feel "special" her own words.

As a former self mutilator and now child advocate who works in the system daily. I take no offence to theory's in this WS thread. That's what we do here. Let's try to pick apart the case not each other

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[2Hope4]

The only charge against Keepers that was not certified to the grand jury was an accessory after the fact charge. That was dropped at the prosecution’s request.
SNIPPED
He later told police they should be looking for a live body instead of talking to the last person who saw her alive. He then asked to call a lawyer.
SNIPPED
They discussed possible ways to kill Lovell. That included drugging Lovell, Keepers hiding in the back of Eisenhauer’s car and knocking her out, making Lovell’s death appear as a suicide, or making it appear that Lovell died from the cold weather. Keepers also suggested a place to drop off the body. After leaving Cookout, Keepers said she was under the impression that Eisenhauer was going to meet Lovell and kill her.
The next morning, Keepers said Eisenhauer sent her a message saying “it’s done.” Keepers said that Eisenhauer also asked her to meet.


http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/H...harged-in-Nicole-Lovell-murder-380233051.html

Prosecution seems to have a strong case for both. Prosecution wanted the charge dropped. I trust their judgment. They have a stradegy.
Interesting that DE thought he could sway the investigation by telling the police to look for a live body. Of course with the googling of missing persons, how many aren't found, etc., he wanted them to think Nicole had run away. Little did he realize, an investigation doesn't work that way. 18yrs old, and thought he knew it all. SMH
I'm deeply sorry for the loss of Nicole. If these two weren't caught, IMO, there would have been more murders. It almost seems they were looking for a reason to murder. No normal people don't think that way. Yet prisons are full of sociopaths that think they are so smart, and have no feelings towards anyone. They'll hopefully both be a part of that 'special club' for their lives!