GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #7

[cvillemegan]

There are still things we don't know that could have (or maybe still could) sway this case -- like whose fingerprints were on the septic tank lid? Or had too many days passed to be able to determine who touched it that Sunday?

The sheriff's deputy testified he kicked the lid off and it went on like a garbage can lid. But unless it had a hinge on it, which doesn't seem to be the case, how did it get back on?

As ANonyMS said, this comes down to lack of evidence against Ashley. I hope the Sheriff's Office is able to get more answers so all of us -- especially the people in Pulaski who knew and loved Noah -- can one day have a clearer picture of what happened and possibly hold someone accountable.

 

[wvsoccermom]

I'm just at a loss right now....I feel sick.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

This is the saddest news I've read in a long time. I can't even imagine what poor Noah went through as he died. Either way, there are still neglect charges that could send them to jail for a few years. That would give prosecutors time to further investigate. I still hold faint hope the truth will come out. I just can't fathom the child falling in a septic tank and the lid closing behind him. God Bless little Noah.

 

[loveisthemovement]

When you think about it, the fact that they left the kids alone has probably saved AW from a murder charge. If she had have been home when he went into that tank, I am not sure she would be able to prove it wasn't intentional. Now we may never know.

 

[alreetlike]

From your link:

Paul Thomas and Ashley White both cried in court when investigators talked about how the boy's body was discovered and removed from the septic tank. There was septic tank sludge in his throat and lungs, the medical examiner testified.

Noah Thomas was found with a cell phone, toy, used condom, and a toothpaste tube cap.

Ugh. I'm surprised no manner of death has been released yet. If the judge dropped the felony homicide charge I'd assume MOD would be declared accidental.

BBM. Ugh. Jesus wept.

The cell phone found in Noah’s pocket was determined to belong to Ashley White’s aunt. She testified that she gave the phone to Noah to play with after it had been deactivated in 2014. http://wsls.com/2015/08/12/parents-of-noah-thomas-return-to-court-wednesday/

I remember wondering about all the mention of a cell phone (while desperately trying to keep up with the fast-moving thread). I figured it'd be something along those lines.

id almost rather he WAS drugged.... that poor baby fell in sewage and struggled? omg #tears

I think I agree. What an awful way to go.

 

[keeponsearching]

Very awful sad news. I think he could lift the lid and some how manage to fall in, and the lid fell back on. I don't know, just freaking crazy. I can't even imagine that type of septic tank being legal and pass inspection. I would need to see this lid though. Mine is metal and super secure. This just is so upsetting.

 

[keeponsearching]

Very awful sad news. I think he could lift the lid and some how manage to fall in, and the lid fell back on. I don't know, just freaking crazy. I can't even imagine that type of septic tank being legal and pass inspection. I would need to see this lid though. Mine is metal and super secure. This just is so upsetting.

 

[kshultz06082]

Well Courtneyb, I guess we can put our pitchforks away....

I am so sad that this little guy died this way, but in some small way, it gives me hope that his life wasnt the hell we all speculated it was. That is truly the only good thing I can take away from this case.

RIP Noah

 

[NSS]

So, he fell in or was put in.

Lid was on.

I thought they only had to show he died during the commision of a felony. If a victim dies of a heart attack during a robbery, is that still manslaughter/murder?

Poor Noah managed to wander outside whilst his Mum was out, having got himself up and dressed (including coat), he collected a stuffed toy and his cell phone and went out to play before it got light. Poor child slipped and fell into a septic tank, the lid fell back into place, he managed to continue clinging to the toy and phone. What a series of tragic events.

If I had to consider the totality of all that I'd conclude that he was put in there.
However, I wouldn't be able to say which parent (or both) did it as I wouldn't know what time it occurred. As disappointed as I feel, I cannot imagine how LE must be feeling. Noah has been denied justice as of this moment.

ETA - didn't his mother describe his clothing? If so, how did she know?

 

[ANonyMs]

So, he fell in or was put in.

Lid was on.

I thought they only had to show he died during the commision of a felony. If a victim dies of a heart attack during a robbery, is that still manslaughter/murder?

Poor Noah managed to wander outside whilst his Mum was out, having got himself up and dressed (including coat), he collected a stuffed toy and his cell phone and went out to play before it got light. Poor child slipped and fell into a septic tank, the lid fell back into place, he managed to continue clinging to the toy and phone. What a series of tragic events.

If I had to consider the totality of all that I'd conclude that he was put in there.
However, I wouldn't be able to say which parent (or both) did it as I wouldn't know what time it occurred. As disappointed as I feel, I cannot imagine how LE must be feeling. Noah has been denied justice as of this moment.

ETA - didn't his mother describe his clothing? If so, how did she know?

But that's just it...that is exactly what is contested and the CA does not have enough evidence to maintain the charge.

There is no evidence that he fell in OR was put in WHILE AW DROVE PT TO WORK (when they left the kids alone and the "neglect" occurred). The only witness (that we know of) is AW. She states that Noah was alive when she arrived home and he disappeared sometime *after* that while she was sleeping (thus, the death did not occur DURING the neglect). Because there is no other evidence proving contrary, the charge was dropped.

The Commonwealth Attorney (CA or "Prosecutor") has to show some kind of evidence that AW is lying about Noah being alive when she arrived home. Fleenor has not done that. He says so himself in court. He chalked it up to the only evidence of Noah being alive during that time is AW's word and she is not to be trusted. The judge found that to be insufficient.

They have to draw a connection to between the two events with some kind of admissible evidence and the CA has not that.

P.S.
Just to clarify...the phone was in his pocket, so he wasn't clinging to it. As for knowing what he was wearing, I almost wonder if she was getting him dressed and then decided to leave him at home or, if her version of events is true, she knew what he was wearing and then saw his coat and boots missing. It is a tiny home and I doubt he had more than one winter coat.

 

[ANonyMs]

Hoping some of you can expand my mind a little.

Those of you who think AW (or AW with others) put him in the tank, why do you think she would do that? If he had no other injuries (he was not beaten before going in the tank) nor was he drugged, what reason would she have to put him in there?

Just curious. It seems difficult to rectify the issues of the lid, but that aside, WHY would AW put her alive and well child in the tank?

 

[AnnaGrace]

I'm really confused about why the CA thought there was enough evidence to charge her with felony murder. He went on to say, or maybe it was the sheriff, that that charge meant an accidental death during the commission of a felony, which was the neglect and abuse charges. If that was the case, then why felonious murder instead of neglectful homicide? Why did they think it was murder? I hope someone can make this a little clearer to me. What evidence did they have that only Ashley was charged with felonious murder? I'm not understanding any of this.

 

[NSS]

Hoping some of you can expand my mind a little.

Those of you who think AW (or AW with others) put him in the tank, why do you think she would do that? If he had no other injuries (he was not beaten before going in the tank) nor was he drugged, what reason would she have to put him in there?

Just curious. It seems difficult to rectify the issues of the lid, but that aside, WHY would AW put her alive and well child in the tank?

Why does any parent neglect, harm, endanger, kill their child?
Her baby was born with fetal abstinence issues.
The child was or became a burden.

If there were no other injuries, he didn't bump himself on the narrow entrance, lid or struggle to grab anything. I think she believed that she had suffocated him (with a pillow or similar), the septic was a hiding place, she was as shocked as we were to find he drowned.
Oh and never believed the sleeping story, not with an infant there.

 

[atthelake]

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html

Child falls into septic tank in Tewksbury; family warns of dangers

On Sunday, July 13, the family was playing softball in Betsy and Stanley Parman’s side yard at their Hollowbrook Road home. After a batter got a solid hit 4-year-old Abbey, the daughter of a niece, chased after the ball that had landed near the home's septic system.
SepticAbbey.jpgAbbey, 4, gets her turn at bat before a family game of softball nearly became a tragedy. Abbey fell into a septic tank after chasing a hit ball.

When the child unwittingly stepped on the lid of the septic tank, it flipped over and she vanished from sight. Then the lid flipped back into place.

Nationwide, several children have died in septic tanks this year, according to news reports. Most recently, in early June a 7-year-old boy died after falling into an uncovered septic system in Arizona. Although someone saw him fall in and tried to help immediately, the child drowned before he could be retrieved. A few days later in Ohio, a 5-year-old girl died after falling into a septic tank. The lid apparently gave way when the girl stood on it.

NOTE that lid to the cover. It has holes for SCREWS. As many of you folks will recall, I was up in North Georgia on vacation at rental cabins, and found the SAME THING! Same type of cover, which was NOT screwed in. I called the owners of the cabins and told them to screw it in! It was easily kicked off by my foot!

 

[ANonyMs]

ETA: from ANonyMs link http://www.roanoke.com/noah-thomas-...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html :thinking:so its possible the try a direct indictment still?

Yes, but on those 4 charges specifically, which were the original ones filed having to do with neglect/abuse.

 

[ANonyMs]

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html

Child falls into septic tank in Tewksbury; family warns of dangers

NOTE that lid to the cover. It has holes for SCREWS. As many of you folks will recall, I was up in North Georgia on vacation at rental cabins, and found the SAME THING! Same type of cover, which was NOT screwed in. I called the owners of the cabins and told them to screw it in! It was easily kicked off by my foot!

I know we had discussed that example before but I think having the pics here was a great idea. It's hard for people to imagine it without seeing it. And yes, you can see the little loops for the screws and so many of these lids are NOT screwed down (as we know the one in Noah's yard was not when LE searched it.)

 

[NSS]

I concede that accidents occur atthelake. (that same 2014 article has appeared in these threads before)

I could post a much longer list of parents who have killed their children.

Neither would prove this instance in one direction or the other.

Parents in this case are self absorbed, drug using, and openly neglectful. He was not SEEN falling in, he was not HEARD crying out, he was alone, for hours, and he died before anyone even knew he was missing.

What happened here was avoidable, not a tragic or unfortunate accident.

 

[kshultz06082]

Hoping some of you can expand my mind a little.

Those of you who think AW (or AW with others) put him in the tank, why do you think she would do that? If he had no other injuries (he was not beaten before going in the tank) nor was he drugged, what reason would she have to put him in there?

Just curious. It seems difficult to rectify the issues of the lid, but that aside, WHY would AW put her alive and well child in the tank?

Just jumping off your post:

I used to think AW or PT put him there due to a lack of info. Now that we know more, I cant reconcile in my mind that any parent put a living child in a septic tank. I actually believe now that AW was telling the truth. I think she did lay down for a nap and Noah may have gone outside to play without her knowledge. We have no credible evidence saying the lid of the tank was securely on when the first responders got there. We have heard stories that 2 men showed up while LE was inside with AW and poked a stick around in the tank. We still dont know who they are or if they can confirm the lid was securely on versus just laying on top of the opening.

Dont get me wrong, I am in no way saying these parents were the worlds greatest parents but we have no proof that they abused either child. Yes, i believe leaving the children alone was a horrible decision and neglectful, but that really is the only evidence of neglect/abuse we have. I know someone will argue that the baby being sick was neglectful/abusive, but I lean toward the parents thinking she just had a cold and not realizing how serious it was. I am still waiting for proof that she had drugs in her system after she came home from the hospital at birth. If that is proven, next, i would need proof that she was not being breastfed because the methadone that AW was taking could be transferred that way.

I realize that this is all contrary to everything i have said previously, but that was all before the new info came out. By all accounts, Noah was a happy and healthy little boy. I truly hope that is true and this was just a tragic accident. If the parents do get the baby back, I hope it is only after major parenting classes, drug rehab, and with continued check ups by CPS. And if it is just a tragic accident, I for one, am sorry for my speculations about the parents and I hope a valuable lesson has been learned.

 

[NSS]

I know we had discussed that example before but I think having the pics here was a great idea. It's hard for people to imagine it without seeing it. And yes, you can see the little loops for the screws and so many of these lids are NOT screwed down (as we know the one in Noah's yard was not when LE searched it.)

I think we also discussed that this was not the same as the one on Noahs property. No big deal. Noah is dead, murder can't be proven, case closed. Moving on to the next dead baby.

 

[ANonyMs]

Why does any parent neglect, harm, endanger, kill their child?
Her baby was born with fetal abstinence issues.
The child was or became a burden.

If there were no other injuries, he didn't bump himself on the narrow entrance, lid or struggle to grab anything. I think she believed that she had suffocated him (with a pillow or similar), the septic was a hiding place, she was as shocked as we were to find he drowned.
Oh and never believed the sleeping story, not with an infant there.

I should have been more clear...he did have minor scratches on his abdomen and a laceration on his mouth...so other than those...

I assume that was from falling in but it could have been from a back hand, too.

In general though, I find it hard to make that leap. I find these parents to be morally reprehensible, but there has been no other indication of physical abuse, loathing, hatred or contempt for her children. I realize that drugs could quickly change all of that, but it just feels like a pretty big leap to me.

Thanks for sharing you opinion - I was having a hard time seeing that side.