GUILTY Wa - Pat Shunn, 45, & Monique Patenaude, 46, Arlington, 11 April 2016 *arrests*

[MU42M]

What is the difference between probable cause documents and charging documents?

I did try to Google my ? but I just want a simple answer :thinking:

The charging document is just an accusation of the charges committed. The affidavit of probable cause contains an affidavit summarizing the factual allegations that contain all of the elements of the crimes charged. The latter is reviewed by a judge and, if there is sufficient information, is what allows the judge to issue an arrest warrant, set bail, etc. Occasionally a prosecutor will fail to include a detail regarding a necessary element - then the defendant won't be held because probable cause hasn't been established.


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[SCHMAE]

Note to the perps: Now that your names, faces and your $$ haul have been made public, please enjoy your stay in Mexico !

 

[ClaireNC]

What is the difference between probable cause documents and charging documents?

I did try to Google my ? but I just want a simple answer :thinking:

Real simple definition: Probable cause documents outline why they should be arrested. Charging documents detail why they have been arrested.

 

[ANZAC]

I sat here this morning and thoroughly read the charging documents, matter of fact I read them twice. I was trying to form a picture of what happened to this couple and how these two brothers were able to incapacitate them. Even with all the information provided, there are still a couple of missing pieces to the puzzle.

First of all, I think the Reeds waited until both of the victims pulled up to the entry gate and stopped, and then shot them from a distance with a hunting rifle. Apparently one of the victims was still alive when the Reeds walked up to the car, and was shot with a 9mm pistol in order to finish the job.

Certainly possible -- but the risk of missing vs shooting point blank through the car window is higher. All they had to do was walk up to the car in the driveway, and then shoot the driver in the head, once. Look at all the police ambushes - it is scarily easy to do.

Immediately after being shot, their bodies were loaded into the rear of their SUV's right there in front of the gate, and then driven "somewhere" to be buried or disposed of. Nothing in the house appeared to have been disturbed at all, so I don't think either one of them ever made it through the gate.

What about the dried blood in the bathtub in the Reed house?

The parts of the story I'm struggling to understand are as follows:
The neighbors that lived close by, the ones the couple was texting and planning to spend the evening with, didn't report hearing any gunshots that afternoon.
Why not ? Apparently nobody else reported hearing any gunshots either, at least not that made it into the charging documents.

In that area I can't imagine anyone reporting gun shots. Even where I live it barely rates a mention (except I live in near a small no shooting zone).
It is perfectly legal to target shoot on your own land in unincorporated Snohomish County, as long as you're shooting safely.

When the neighbors went to their home to do a check on them at 4:30 p.m., both vehicles were gone. Both vehicles were seen the following morning at 3:30 a.m. on a surveillance camera being driven to where they were found. Where were these two vehicles being stored after the owners were shot ?

On the Reed property while the remains were being prepped for disposal? (per cell records)

They must be buried or dumped close enough by that their cell phones continued to ping from the same tower as they normally would. The reason being, the pings didn't register at a different location until the next morning when the vehicles were moved. Wherever the vehicles were taken after the shootings, it was still within range of the normal cell tower in that area.

The bodies were probably moved with the vehicles, and in the vehicles.

 

[ClaireNC]

I agree for the most part about the gunshots in rural areas, but what I find strange is that no one seemed to have reported hearing gunshots during that 3 hour lull between when Monique arrived home, when Pat arrived home, and when the neighbors arrived at 4:30 p.m. I would think that LE would've at least reported that one or more of the neighbors heard gunfire during that timespan, including the ones they were friends with. You see that surface in many police reports, but it was left completely out of this one.

To expand on what Schmae said about gunshots in rural areas. When they are a common part of the background noise you really just don't hear them. It's like a car passing or the birds singing. You know they are there but you simply don't notice them.

 

[steelman]

I'm thinking Monique did go past the gate and must have been home long enough to let the dog out. The documents state from the neighbor that the dog was running loose and it would never be outside unattended. The worst comes to mind when I think about how Monique may have died. Hope I am wrong.

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It's possible, but if they were shot as they entered the gate, the Reeds would have had access to their house keys along with everything else. I'm wondering if the Reeds actually pulled her vehicle all the way up to the house so it would appear to Pat Shunn that everything was normal when he pulled up. Obviously she was attacked first, then the vehicle was moved while they waited for Pat Shunn to arrive. I would imagine he met almost an identical fate.

Something didn't go quite as planned though, because one shiny brass bullet casing was found in the driveway by the gate.

 

[ANZAC]

I wonder if the Moses Lake sightings were made purposely to throw LE off their trail.


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Let's not forget, they definitely were in Ellensburg because their truck was found there and that's where they got the VW. The timing is the only thing excluding the Moses Lake sighting right now. Moses Lake is about 1hr from Ellensburg.


To the point of throwing people off their trail, I would also point out -- there are no confirmed SIGHTINGS by LE or photo evidence of the suspects on the run.

There is only evidence of their vehicles. And statement of the friends in Phoenix.

Let's say they have a cousin Jimmy in Ellensburg. They tell Jimmy "take this red car to Phoenix, go see our friend Phil, get a car from him and drive it towards the Mexico border. If the police come around, have him tell them you gave us the car and $500. Meanwhile, we're going to have dinner at a golf course in Moses Lake and head east."

While it is unlikely, it is possible, though honestly I don't think they are that smart.

 

[SCHMAE]

To expand on what Schmae said about gunshots in rural areas. When they are a common part of the background noise you really just don't hear them. It's like a car passing or the birds singing. You know they are there but you simply don't notice them.

Right! This past weekend apparently one of ' neighbors' got a new gun. I heard it for about an hour going almost continuously it seemed. To me that sounds like breaking in a new gun and target practice. Now if LE had come to me the next morning and asked if I heard something, I would have said yes. But a random few shots here or there in the days before that, I would have no way of remembering.

 

[Portabella]

I live in a very small rural town, I cannot tell you how many gunshots I hear, you do tune them out. The only time I react is when they are so close I wonder if my fighting neighbors across the way finally killed each other. If the police followed up on every gunshot out here, they would be running in circles day in and day out. I am betting its the same in this case's situation.

I too feel that at least "she" made it through the gate and to the home, I think she took the pup out and then was ambushed. I am hoping they did not sexually assault her prior to her death. I believe "he" may have been shot at the gate. Both vehicles could have been at Reeds former "squatting" residence. Do any neighbors have a view of the gate? If not, perhaps at Mom or Dads house....IMHO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I sat here this morning and thoroughly read the charging documents, matter of fact I read them twice. I was trying to form a picture of what happened to this couple and how these two brothers were able to incapacitate them. Even with all the information provided, there are still a couple of missing pieces to the puzzle.

First of all, I think the Reeds waited until both of the victims pulled up to the entry gate and stopped, and then shot them from a distance with a hunting rifle. Apparently one of the victims was still alive when the Reeds walked up to the car, and was shot with a 9mm pistol in order to finish the job.

Immediately after being shot, their bodies were loaded into the rear of their SUV's right there in front of the gate, and then driven "somewhere" to be buried or disposed of. Nothing in the house appeared to have been disturbed at all, so I don't think either one of them ever made it through the gate.


The parts of the story I'm struggling to understand are as follows:
The neighbors that lived close by, the ones the couple was texting and planning to spend the evening with, didn't report hearing any gunshots that afternoon.
Why not ? Apparently nobody else reported hearing any gunshots either, at least not that made it into the charging documents.

When the neighbors went to their home to do a check on them at 4:30 p.m., both vehicles were gone. Both vehicles were seen the following morning at 3:30 a.m. on a surveillance camera being driven to where they were found. Where were these two vehicles being stored after the owners were shot ?

Were the vehicles immediately driven up into the hills after the shooting in order to bury the bodies ? If so, once again, where were the vehicles stored until the early morning hours when they were moved and an attempt made to hide them ? All of this driving around and moving things, and yet no witnesses report seeing anything ?

They must be buried or dumped close enough by that their cell phones continued to ping from the same tower as they normally would. The reason being, the pings didn't register at a different location until the next morning when the vehicles were moved. Wherever the vehicles were taken after the shootings, it was still within range of the normal cell tower in that area.

I think there are neighbors around there that both heard and saw things, but for whatever reason, are choosing to keep quiet about it. Maybe they will open up a little bit after these two psychos are caught. Then again, with all the feuding and hard feelings going on around there, maybe the neighbors feel as though the two of them got what they had coming.

Agreed, I think the couple were shot like animals the brothers probably hunted and shot from afar as well.

And yeah, why did no one hear the gunshots? The charges are first degree, so some planning/premediation....would these guys think to use a type of silencer on their guns? I'm not sure they would plan that much.

And like you say, why did no one see any of the vehicle movement? I get the time of 3:30am, people are usually sleeping for that time, but good question about where were the vehicles kept before that.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I'm thinking Monique did go past the gate and must have been home long enough to let the dog out. The documents state from the neighbor that the dog was running loose and it would never be outside unattended. The worst comes to mind when I think about how Monique may have died. Hope I am wrong.

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I am really hoping Monique wasn't sexually assaulted by one or both of these animals. I shuddered when I first heard about the kidnapping charge as that was the first thing that came to my mind. I am hoping it was quick and sudden in their vehicles, I guess we'll have to wait for more details.

 

[ANZAC]

Agreed, I think the couple were shot like animals the brothers probably hunted and shot from afar as well.

And yeah, why did no one hear the gunshots? The charges are first degree, so some planning/premediation....would these guys think to use a type of silencer on their guns? I'm not sure they would plan that much.

as per several replies: very rural area, gunshots happen all the time.

re silencer: they are harder to get on the black market because they are NFA items and require federal approval. These two would not have been able to legally buy them. (I know they had guns illegally too, I just don't see either the need for a silencer or the likelihood they could obtain one)

 

[ANZAC]

I am really hoping Monique wasn't sexually assaulted by one or both of these animals. I shuddered when I first heard about the kidnapping charge as that was the first thing that came to my mind. I am hoping it was quick and sudden in their vehicles, I guess we'll have to wait for more details.

Based on the documents we've seen and statements to the press, there is no kidnapping charge. The charges are: Homicide in 1st degree, unlawful possession of firearm.

 

[ANZAC]

I live in a very small rural town, I cannot tell you how many gunshots I hear, you do tune them out. The only time I react is when they are so close I wonder if my fighting neighbors across the way finally killed each other. If the police followed up on every gunshot out here, they would be running in circles day in and day out. I am betting its the same in this case's situation.

Exactly!!! I am not sure about SnoCo, but down here if you call and say you heard gunshots, they will say "so why are you concerned? are bullets hitting your house? can you see the person shooting? what are they shooting at?"; the same as if someone sees a person carrying a gun out here, the deputies usually call back to the comm center and say "what is the person doing with the gun? does the reporting party feel threatened?" Carrying guns and shooting guns is a lawful and normal part of rural life in the US.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

as per several replies: very rural area, gunshots happen all the time.

re silencer: they are harder to get on the black market because they are NFA items and require federal approval. These two would not have been able to legally buy them. (I know they had guns illegally too, I just don't see either the need for a silencer or the likelihood they could obtain one)

I have to forget that gunshots are more common in the US. Here in Canada even in most rural areas gunshots aren't that common lol! It's crazy, I don't think I've ever heard a real-life gun shot ever!

But it makes total sense, it sounds like everyone in that neighborhood seemed to be gun owners.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Based on the documents we've seen and statements to the press, there is no kidnapping charge. The charges are: Homicide in 1st degree, unlawful possession of firearm.

Thanks, I think the kidnapping came from a MSM article and probably misinformation. I didn't notice it in the docs either, I'm glad it's not a charge.

 

[Limecat]

Since Canada is really strict about who they allow in the country, I think they would find it easier to do what you describe in the U.S. There are plenty of isolated places they could go, or as Steleman suggested, a larger city where they could blend in. Whitey Bulger hung out in plain sight in SoCal and Santa Monica CA for years.

I'm catching up on this thread and posting way ahead of where I'm reading - always dangerous I know - but just felt compelled to throw this in the hat.

In 2010 my ex and I went to the Winter Olympics in Vancouver. We flew into Seattle to save money and drove up. My ex had lived in Vancouver when he was younger and knew the area well so we went kind of the "back way" to avoid long waits at a major border crossing.

Long story short he'd accidentally left his briefcase at the rental car company in Seattle. It had our passports, tickets to Olympic events, and cash (there are reasons he's my EX). We didn't know it until we got to the crossing.

My point is apparently you do not need a passport to enter Canada, only to return back into the US. And secondly they will allow a ranting murderous wife and her idiot of a husband into Canada during the olympics without any fuss whatsoever. Lol


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[kalekona]

I'm catching up on this thread and posting way ahead of where I'm reading - always dangerous I know - but just felt compelled to throw this in the hat.

In 2010 my ex and I went to the Winter Olympics in Vancouver. We flew into Seattle to save money and drove up. My ex had lived in Vancouver when he was younger and knew the area well so we went kind of the "back way" to avoid long waits at a major border crossing.

Long story short he'd accidentally left his briefcase at the rental car company in Seattle. It had our passports, tickets to Olympic events, and cash (there are reasons he's my EX). We didn't know it until we got to the crossing.

My point is apparently you do not need a passport to enter Canada, only to return back into the US. And secondly they will allow a ranting murderous wife and her idiot of a husband into Canada during the olympics without any fuss whatsoever. Lol


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Since 9/11 it isn't that easy- You need a passport or an enhanced ID. My nephew tried to go up a few years ago and they couldn't enter Canada because one of the guys with him had a DUI (and he wasn't even the driver) There is a reason they headed to Mexico than just up to Canada.

 

[Limecat]

Since 9/11 it isn't that easy- You need a passport or an enhanced ID. My nephew tried to go up a few years ago and they couldn't enter Canada because one of the guys with him had a DUI (and he wasn't even the driver) There is a reason they headed to Mexico than just up to Canada.

This happened to us in 2010. Well after 9/11. Sorry for off topic but I just think you can get from the US to Canada without a lot of fuss.


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[ANZAC]

This happened to us in 2010. Well after 9/11. Sorry for off topic but I just think you can get from the US to Canada without a lot of fuss.

Not with felony convictions.