WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #3

[BeanE]

BeanE, I think it was safe to assume accidental drowning considering the location. That may or may not always be the case. Toxicology reports are not in yet. And she has not been found. It may not have been accidental after all. He could have been abandoned in that car.

Drowning is the cause of death, accidental refers to manner of death. If the M.E. believed Azriel's death was foul play, he/she would have put homicide for manner rather than accidental. If the M.E. was unsure, he/she would have put drowning for COD and unknown for MOD.

It is an extremely rare thing for a M.E. to go back and change their ruling.

 

[houndstooth]

I just watched another viddie where the ex JS seems to have to suppress laughter. What on earth is THAT about? This is the ex she recently resumed contact with. What about C the father of Az. Were they ever married and did she not maintain contact with him?

As for the ME ruling it's like this to me hypothetically: If a person went out to swim alone as far as anyone knows and someone unknown swims along and drowns them, then swims away again. How would the ME be able to determine if the drowning were accidental or forced? How would they be able to determine in this case if the circumstance was accidental or possibly forced? Is there a physiological difference apparant to the body to determine? How would he know yet if the person was drugged and left to drown? Just thinking out loud, but if you know BeanE, I am very curious.

 

[mrsc72]

I seem to recall a picture of SS (maybe with a motorcycle) with sneakers similar to the larger one. I'm pretty sure I remember the silver things on them too. I have looked and can't find the picture again now but maybe from a blog or FB (I guess I was unfriended).

 

[justme96]

I seem to recall a picture of SS (maybe with a motorcycle) with sneakers similar to the larger one. I'm pretty sure I remember the silver things on them too. I have looked and can't find the picture again now but maybe from a blog or FB (I guess I was unfriended).

RS identified the smaller shoe as hers. The Larger one is a mans shoe and has not been identified.

 

[powayparent]

I don't believe Shantina or anyone else intended to drown Azriel but it's an almost certainty that her actions put him in grave danger over the course of that bizarre night.

If a child drowns in a swimming pool or other body of water, even through the gross negligence of an adult, the death is still ruled "accidental drowning".

 

[mrsc72]

Thurston County Sheriff's Lt. Chris Mealy told ABC News that Robb Simmons, Smiley's fiance, told investigators that Smiley's son had asthma and used an inhaler. Simmons also identified the smaller of the two shoes and the orange ball as belonging to Azriel, Mealy said

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/sh...ewes-evidence-washes-ashore/story?id=10134521

I seem to recall a picture of SS (maybe with a motorcycle) with sneakers similar to the larger one. I'm pretty sure I remember the silver things on them too. I have looked and can't find the picture again now but maybe from a blog or FB (I guess I was unfriended).

I was looking at the larger shoe.

 

[darlin gal]

Lt. Mealey says his team has identified contents found on a beach. Some belong to Shantina and Azriel, and some do not. Lt. Mealey also mentions that they could have fallen out of the family mini-van because the doors and hatch were left open:
• Wine bottle (Shantina was seen purchasing this earlier in the night at the Handy Pantry around 7:55 p.m., it was found on the beach, half empty with the cap on it)
• Baseball (not identified)
• Orange ball (does belong to Azriel)
• Possibly a men’s shoe, size 13 (not identified)
• Asthma inhaler (belongs to Azriel)
• Two water bottles (unidentified)
• A woman or man’s shoe size, 9w (does belong to Shantina)




http://www.michellesigona.com/2010/03/shantina-smiley-still-missing-remembering-azriel/

 

[justme96]

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/29873132/new-clue-in-search-for-missing-mom.htm

In this video Lt Mealy said the smaller shoe size 9W belongs to SS.

Listen to this. The Larger shoe could not have belonged to SS because the smaller shoe belongs to her.

Have a good day all. Going to work.

 

[trina133]

I just watched another viddie where the ex JS seems to have to suppress laughter. What on earth is THAT about? This is the ex she recently resumed contact with. What about C the father of Az. Were they ever married and did she not maintain contact with him?

As for the ME ruling it's like this to me hypothetically: If a person went out to swim alone as far as anyone knows and someone unknown swims along and drowns them, then swims away again. How would the ME be able to determine if the drowning were accidental or forced? How would they be able to determine in this case if the circumstance was accidental or possibly forced? Is there a physiological difference apparant to the body to determine? How would he know yet if the person was drugged and left to drown? Just thinking out loud, but if you know BeanE, I am very curious.

While I am certainly no expert, but I would think that if someone was drowned on purpose there would be bruises and possibly scratches.......from fighting off the person drowning them. The person being drowned is going to fight as a natural instinct of course and the person who is drowning them will have to hold on hard enough to make bruises......I would think in the shape of their fingers. That's my thought anyway.

 

[bobcat]

While I am certainly no expert, but I would think that if someone was drowned on purpose there would be bruises and possibly scratches.......from fighting off the person drowning them. The person being drowned is going to fight as a natural instinct of course and the person who is drowning them will have to hold on hard enough to make bruises......I would think in the shape of their fingers. That's my thought anyway.

That is true, but what if the boy was left sleeping in the van, alone, by someone who knew the tide would eventually come in and he would drown? Still, it seems the boy would have had a good chance of getting out of the car and making it to shore, as long as he woke up before the water was too high.

 

[trina133]

That is true, but what if the boy was left sleeping in the van, alone, by someone who knew the tide would eventually come in and he would drown? Still, it seems the boy would have had a good chance of getting out of the car and making it to shore, as long as he woke up before the water was too high.

I see what you're saying........I don't know, I just think he may have fell in and the coat and his jeans weighed him down. Did they ever find his coat? Was it on him still?

 

[Jules71]

I thought I already posted this but I guess not. Does anyone know if this model of mini van has a button to release the back hatch on the dashboard and/or in the back of the van? And if so, would it work without the keys on? I used to have a car that had a trunk release button on the key remote.

Also I was trying to find the video surveillance footage that showed Az getting into the passenger rear of the van to see for sure if this was the sliding type doors or regular ones. I can't seem to find it.

 

[BeanE]

I just watched another viddie where the ex JS seems to have to suppress laughter. What on earth is THAT about? This is the ex she recently resumed contact with. What about C the father of Az. Were they ever married and did she not maintain contact with him?

As for the ME ruling it's like this to me hypothetically: If a person went out to swim alone as far as anyone knows and someone unknown swims along and drowns them, then swims away again. How would the ME be able to determine if the drowning were accidental or forced? How would they be able to determine in this case if the circumstance was accidental or possibly forced? Is there a physiological difference apparant to the body to determine? How would he know yet if the person was drugged and left to drown? Just thinking out loud, but if you know BeanE, I am very curious.

Medical examiners are provided all the information about the circumstances of the person's death, and evidence such as clothing, even dirt, sand, leaves, trash, etc that was in the area surrounding the body. They use all that plus the physical cause of death and condition of the body to determine both the cause and manner of death. They work closely with LE.

For drugging, they do initial tests along with their examination of the body and consideration of the circumstances. The tox tests show more obscure drugs, and rarely come back positive. I don't want to be gross but they have, e.g., the stomach contents and bladder contents. They check the body for signs of drug use and overdoses, e.g., looking at fingernails and eyes.

I haven't heard that this ME has an eye on the tox tests, or that there have been any rumblings from LE about foul play, so for me, I'm not thinking foul play, at least not in terms of a deliberate act.

I do wonder if perhaps we have a case of negligence on the part of SS, and if perhaps she is holed up somewhere in a quandary about what to do. I don't think that's the case, but I can't say I would be entirely surprised.

MOO

 

[houndstooth]

That is true, but what if the boy was left sleeping in the van, alone, by someone who knew the tide would eventually come in and he would drown? Still, it seems the boy would have had a good chance of getting out of the car and making it to shore, as long as he woke up before the water was too high.

This seems more likely to me. The wondering about forceable drowning was just a curiosity factor that occured to me about how ME would determine an intentional drowning that didn't occur in a bathtub or swimming pool but in a natural environment where it might appear more obviously accidental. Ya know?

 

[bobcat]

I haven't seen many people mention this, but what are the chances that someone other than Shantina drove the van down to the beach? I just can't see her being able to find that little gravel road in the dark, and not knowing where it would lead, plus you would think she'd be concerned about someone in that house seeing her and calling the police since she was driving on private property.

The only other possibility in my mind is that she had been there before in the past and knew exactly where she was going...

 

[Jules71]

In my gut I really think she was intoxicated or impaired in some way (head injury from accident, or other) which led to her confusion and getting lost. I think at some point (probably after her stop at the Williams and then going the wrong way again) she purposely looked for somewhere to sleep it off for the night.

I think she parked on the beach and it did not even occur to her to be concerned about the tide. I am from around the Puget Sound area and I might not have even thought about the tide coming in, especially if I were tired, intoxicated, and/or impaired in some way. I think the door and hatch being open --were from when they awoke to water coming in and tried to get out.

I do sense her not wanting Robb along for whatever reason, and I think she left her cell phone at home on purpose - not so that they wouldn't pick up the cell phone pings, but because she didn't want to be in touch with or controlled by Robb.

The dogs did not track her scent away from the beach, and I don't think any other vehicles were involved in picking her up and taking her somewhere else. I think she will be found in the water.

 

[Allison907]

Living on the water front, being exposed to high tide/low tide. When the high tide is coming in, it's loud, louder than one would think. ( wakes me up at nights..lol ) I would venture to think just the high tide coming in... would make anyone aware of the tide coming in.

Were the doors on the van open, when found?

Wouldn't the tide coming and going.. close the doors?


Also, the temp that night.. does anyone know what it was?

 

[powayparent]

"They dusted the vehicle for fingerprints but found no new evidence, he said."

http://www.theolympian.com/2010/03/17/1174911/no-new-clues-in-missing-pair.html

It doesn't specify that they found only expected prints or no prints at all.

I'm directionally challenged and have many times found myself in places I couldn't have found on a map and could never find again. At the point she drove down the narrow driveway it's clear she's not heading towards the freeway but she may have wanted to camp at the beach and figured that any of the little driveways would take her there.

None of the events that night were logical so it's probably an exercise in futility to try to find a logical reason for where the van ultimately stopped.

 

[houndstooth]

Here's what I am thinking as a possible scenario: SS wants to end her relationship with RS. She has begun and or resumed a relationship with X. X does not want her kid. SS would also like to end all her responsibilites. So she and he devise a plan to make it look like both have disappeared. Her recent lapses may be to convince someone she is still having a problem. But, there are few alcoholics who would leave a half bottle of wine undrunk in such a stressfully excusable in her mind situation. So I do not think she was actually drunk, but rather very nervous about what she planned to do.

Leaving cell phone. Leaving a high profile easy to follow path timeline would be her going overboard to convince that she merely became lost and that's why she ended up where she did. But, it is so far off that she realistically would have only found it if she had been there and knew this place and it was a designated rendezvous point. Why this spot? Well for one thing, I see from google earth that it sits on the mouth of about 6 different inlets/outlets and be much more difficult to ever find her or son's missing bodies. If her's is never found no one will be too questioning.

Leaving the van with doors open just LOOKS like it was meant to be flooded with water.
All her activities seem suspect to me.

I could of course be wrong, she could have been drunk or taking pills and just been disoriented like most people think. But, how could she navigate that road much less find it off someone's driveway?

Time will tell. But, this poor little boy is a victim no matter which outcome turns out to be true.

 

[SMK]

Here's what I am thinking as a possible scenario: SS wants to end her relationship with RS. She has begun and or resumed a relationship with X. X does not want her kid. SS would also like to end all her responsibilites. So she and he devise a plan to make it look like both have disappeared. Her recent lapses may be to convince someone she is still having a problem. But, there are few alcoholics who would leave a half bottle of wine undrunk in such a stressfully excusable in her mind situation. So I do not think she was actually drunk, but rather very nervous about what she planned to do.

Leaving cell phone. Leaving a high profile easy to follow path timeline would be her going overboard to convince that she merely became lost and that's why she ended up where she did. But, it is so far off that she realistically would have only found it if she had been there and knew this place and it was a designated rendezvous point. Why this spot? Well for one thing, I see from google earth that it sits on the mouth of about 6 different inlets/outlets and be much more difficult to ever find her or son's missing bodies. If her's is never found no one will be too questioning.

Leaving the van with doors open just LOOKS like it was meant to be flooded with water.
All her activities seem suspect to me.

I could of course be wrong, she could have been drunk or taking pills and just been disoriented like most people think. But, how could she navigate that road much less find it off someone's driveway?

Time will tell. But, this poor little boy is a victim no matter which outcome turns out to be true.

This is interesting, because although it seems that she was lost, nervous, perhaps on meds, and just parked to "sleep it off" and did not consider the tide......there IS something suspicious, as another poster had said, about her leaving almost a "bread crumbs trail" . I had read somewhere that her own mother had committed suicide. If so, there is often an intense urge to recreate this scene (from what I have read of people who have attempted suicide on the anniversary of a parent or sibling's suicide). of course , this is all speculative at this juncture. But perhaps going to see the stepfather , or planning to, brought back unbearable memories? Perhaps she blamed him? All so tragic, in any case, for the child, and for Shantina , too, who was, like all of us, once a child herself.