WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #4

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BeanE said:
Do you have a link to information that says there is a certain protocol for LE and that LE did not follow it in this case?

Is there any reason to believe that LE was incompetent and did not properly instruct RS as to what types and conditions of items to bring?

I know that LE stated that RS was fully cooperative.
Click to expand...
I do not have the link, but perhaps the original poster who stated the info to which I was responding, might.
 
RubyRed said:
Is it being insinuated that LE didn't follow the procedure of obtaining scent items and are incompetent? Where is this proof? So the scent dogs went on a wild goose chase because RS gave LE useless scent items? The man was desperate to find Shantina and Azriel. I am sure he followed their instructions. There is no proof of wrong doing by LE or RS. To suggest otherwise, with no concrete evidence, would be ridiculous conjecture. This is my opinion only.
Click to expand...

I am not AT ALL saying RS did something to compromise the scent items. I believe there is a proper protocol for obtaining scent items, as I remember reading about it from an investigator talking about the Lindsey Baum case. I also remember reading if a cigarette smoker handled scent items, it can compromise the scent item. I don't know if RS smokes. Let me see if I can find the article I am referring to.
 
Jules71 said:
I believe I read the same thing - RS brought scent items. IMO, this is not a proper way to obtain and maintain the integrity of scent items. This could explain why the dogs did not pick up on a scent trail (or for very long, if they did).
Click to expand...
This was the post to which I was responding. Jules, do you have a link or anything to further shed light here?
 
Jules71 said:
I am not AT ALL saying RS did something to compromise the scent items. I believe there is a proper protocol for obtaining scent items, as I remember reading about it from an investigator talking about the Lindsey Baum case. I also remember reading if a cigarette smoker handled scent items, it can compromise the scent item. I don't know if RS smokes. Let me see if I can find the article I am referring to.
Click to expand...

Snipped from:
http://www.k9sardog.com/missing_children.htm

COLLECTING SCENT ARTICLES.
Immediately gather good scent articles. NEVER let a family member or a friend of the family, hand your officer the scent articles. Only the officer or dog handler should collect these items. Note chain of custody of the scent items in your report / notebook. The officer, who does this properly, will be a hero to the dog handlers.

Take a NON SMOKING Officer / handler, he / she goes to the residence of the missing person. Put on a pair of rubber gloves and bring 2 clean paper sacks and one large plastic bag FOR EACH item to be collected.

The officer, while wearing rubber gloves, collects non-washed clothing, shoes, pillows, hairbrush, and bed sheets of missing person. Places them individually inside separate paper sacks. Closes paper sacks. Places the paper sack inside another paper sack. Closes paper sack. Places these sacks inside plastic bag and seals bag shut. Never put scent items directly into plastic bags. The plastic bag can destroy scent. Try not to expose any cigarette smoke to the scent items.

Cigarette smoke contains various poisons that desensitizes the search dog’s noses and can affect the ability of the search dog to perform his or her tasks.
 
SMK said:
Just throwing an idea out:
Its obvious at this point that either:
a. This was a tragedy in which Shantina and Azriel were caught by high tide and drowned or
b. There is something more complicated, involving a third party, and this is not what it seems.

I find myself wanting to accept a and "move on", but something keeps pulling me toward b. Is this just delusional, or wishful thinking? Are there others who lean toward b?
Click to expand...

yes you're definately not alone in your leaning towards b. Things do not add up and I don't mean necessarily because we're dealing with an alcoholic. There are a few large pieces completely missing from this puzzle that the LE has got to be or has already investigated&just not letting the public no anything else thats been discovered. For one, we know she was "supposedly" loeaving Silverdale approx. 4:15 and we do not see her until 7:50 at Handy Pantry. Thats a huge chunk of time 3hrs 35mins. And its right at a 60mile trip. No way possible it shoulda taken almost 4hrs. Next sighting is at 9:00 at the Martin Way Diner.And the diner is 4.1 miles from Handy Pantry. (BTW I google mapped all stops&also looked at each place&routes between the stops, and it is LITERALLY IMPOSIBLE that she was lost) Ok, so she's at the diner at 9:00 and she asks for directions to I-5. As Ive seen previously bstated from locals there would be no long list of directions to get there&by looking at google earth(aerial view&street view)its literally pull out of diner,immediately turn right and that street is what directly ramps onto I-5 a mile down the road. But instead of taking that simple turn she instead continues straight out to where it quickly becomes very remote. Next sighting is Mercantile at 9:55 and it is exactly 5.4miles from the diner. Leaves Mercantile and is at the WILLIAMS 10:00-10:10(right around 10pm) The Mercantile is 1.6miles from the Williams house(literally around the corner). This is where she seems as tho she had been crying, was barefoot, and nervous about being lost. She only calls her gparents(who live all way back near Silverdale?,so why would she call them??)Tells them she's lost but is ok& getting directions from homeowners to get back on I-5. Why would she not call step-dad who had long since been expecting her, or why not RS who she knew would long since have been at step dads&also expecting her?? While she makes phone call AZ is given the slice of pizza and once again(as he did to waitress at diner)That his mommy had accident and hit her head. They gave her the simple directions of how to get to I-5, which literally would have been to take a left off of their street and would be back on Boston Harbor Rd,passing Mercantile and heading back into downtown Olympia. Where all she had to do was make 1 more left(back near diner where she when leaving there was supposed to turn right)and she would ramp on to I-5 directly from that road. There is some confusion about after she left the Williams, as some later reports said that she was seen at the Mercantile again at 10:34(tho I've never been able to find or see that video) But if that is fact then she did make the left off of the William's street and was heading in correct direction.Less than 5 miles from getting back on I-5. So she either did go to Mercantile and then instead of continuing on into Olympia she turns back to the right(direction in which she just came from) passes the Williams street 46th Ave NE and continues on Boston Harbor Road to where it looks as tho it literally forks off to the right, and that becomes Zangle Street. Had she not forked off to right onto Zangle she woulda cont'd on Boston Harbor Rd and NOT have ended up on beach. These many many hours were spent all within less than a 9mile area of Olympia. And almost 4hours unaccounted for from 4:15-7:50. This isnt just about alcohol. There is something huge that is missing. And I hope that huge piece is what LE is looking into and finding the answers to. I do not believe she is alive, but I am not entirely convinced that it was of her own accord what took place on that beach or getting to that beach...
 
Jules71 said:
Snipped from:
http://www.k9sardog.com/missing_children.htm

COLLECTING SCENT ARTICLES.
Immediately gather good scent articles. NEVER let a family member or a friend of the family, hand your officer the scent articles. Only the officer or dog handler should collect these items. Note chain of custody of the scent items in your report / notebook. The officer, who does this properly, will be a hero to the dog handlers.

Take a NON SMOKING Officer / handler, he / she goes to the residence of the missing person. Put on a pair of rubber gloves and bring 2 clean paper sacks and one large plastic bag FOR EACH item to be collected.

The officer, while wearing rubber gloves, collects non-washed clothing, shoes, pillows, hairbrush, and bed sheets of missing person. Places them individually inside separate paper sacks. Closes paper sacks. Places the paper sack inside another paper sack. Closes paper sack. Places these sacks inside plastic bag and seals bag shut. Never put scent items directly into plastic bags. The plastic bag can destroy scent. Try not to expose any cigarette smoke to the scent items.

Cigarette smoke contains various poisons that desensitizes the search dog’s noses and can affect the ability of the search dog to perform his or her tasks.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

We have a verified dog handler who just joined up at WS. Let me see if I can track her down and ask her to come by and comment. She'll probably want to see what the news articles said about the scent items, if somebody has those links handy.
 
Calliope said:
If they never left the van, how did the rear hatch get open? And why?
Click to expand...

Key fob has a hatch release. I think there is also one in the car on the dash or near window controls. Why it was open - don't know.
 
Here is some more info on scent items from a different SAR handler:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ent+items+be+handled&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


What makes a bad scent article?
A “bad scent article” doesn’t have the scent of the subject you are looking for, or has been contaminated with a competing scent that confuses the dog. This contamination could be from “residual” sources, scent falling from the air or transferring from another article, or “direct” meaning someone other than the person you seek touched the scent article. Example of bad scent articles: Clean laundry. Shared clothing / linens. Item handled by someone other than the subject, something that has not been in contact with the subject recently.

Many times a scent article is collected by a family member for the teams to use, without knowing that this is not an accepted practice, so it is often the best to try to obtain an item yourself, but always thanking them for the effort!

How do I collect scent guide/article?
When in doubt, don't. Let the dog handler collect it or a trained member of the search team that has been taught how to properly collect the scent articles without contaminating it too much. If the situtation dictates that you must collect one, choose an item that you believe will contain a large amount of the persons scent. If the area has been thoroughly contaminated by previous search efforts or other family members, look under furniture and between mattresses. Take precautions to avoid contamination of the item as the more scents that are on the item, the more the dog has to work through to find the correct scent of the missing person. Remember that the person collecting the article is contaminating it! Handle the items in as short a time as possible; avoid leaning over the item. ALWAYS use gloves (i.e. latex) especially if you have to spend time sorting or moving items around to find a suitable article. Use clean tongs / tweezers to pick up the item if possible as it will keep the item as far from 'your' scent rafts as possible. If possible make multiple scent guides form one item by, cutting it and bagging them separately ( if the item is NOT needed by Law Enforcement as evidence ). Most search teams recommend that you use a zip-loc style bag ( without perfumes ) as they are small and see through. Seal bag as soon as possible after collecting item.
 
I think SS is dead. I don't mean to be so abrupt or blunt but I honestly feel she is gone. The more I think/dream on it, the more I feel they were either both swept out by the currents, or he was and she, distraught, allowed herself to be as well. I also do not believe her body will be found.

When they first went missing, I had several working theories but the longer this plays out the more convinced I am that this was a tragic accident. I know others disagree, and I respect their opinions without sharing them.

Prayers to the family. RIP little Azriel.
 
Jules71 said:
Here is some more info on scent items from a different SAR handler:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ent+items+be+handled&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


What makes a bad scent article?
A “bad scent article” doesn’t have the scent of the subject you are looking for, or has been contaminated with a competing scent that confuses the dog. This contamination could be from “residual” sources, scent falling from the air or transferring from another article, or “direct” meaning someone other than the person you seek touched the scent article. Example of bad scent articles: Clean laundry. Shared clothing / linens. Item handled by someone other than the subject, something that has not been in contact with the subject recently.

Many times a scent article is collected by a family member for the teams to use, without knowing that this is not an accepted practice, so it is often the best to try to obtain an item yourself, but always thanking them for the effort!

How do I collect scent guide/article?
When in doubt, don't. Let the dog handler collect it or a trained member of the search team that has been taught how to properly collect the scent articles without contaminating it too much. If the situtation dictates that you must collect one, choose an item that you believe will contain a large amount of the persons scent. If the area has been thoroughly contaminated by previous search efforts or other family members, look under furniture and between mattresses. Take precautions to avoid contamination of the item as the more scents that are on the item, the more the dog has to work through to find the correct scent of the missing person. Remember that the person collecting the article is contaminating it! Handle the items in as short a time as possible; avoid leaning over the item. ALWAYS use gloves (i.e. latex) especially if you have to spend time sorting or moving items around to find a suitable article. Use clean tongs / tweezers to pick up the item if possible as it will keep the item as far from 'your' scent rafts as possible. If possible make multiple scent guides form one item by, cutting it and bagging them separately ( if the item is NOT needed by Law Enforcement as evidence ). Most search teams recommend that you use a zip-loc style bag ( without perfumes ) as they are small and see through. Seal bag as soon as possible after collecting item.
Click to expand...

Ah well this one sounds like it's fine for a family member to collect scent items.

I'm getting the name of the verified dog handler and then I'll PM her and ask her to drop by here.
 
jessigirl said:
I was just looming at ss ms to see if there were any of her contacts that lived in the area of Olympia. Seems that alot of the ms"friends" use some type of aka or nicknames for their cities or towns they live in. Jessinoly do u recognize either of these two nicknames for areas in wa 1st is "valley of sorrow,wa and 2nd is SimpleDale,wa. Do either ring a bell to u? Other guy was from Bremerton ,wa which I see is back closer to silverdale(which it's a long shot but could possibly be where she was for so long unaccounted for between 415-almost 8 when we see her at handy pantry) bcuz having left fro
silverdale it would not take well over 3 hours to just get to the Olympia area?? Anything could be possible ??? Jessinoly any ideas on the other two names of towns or specific areas of wa. TIA!
Click to expand...

Valley of Sorrow could mean anywhere. Central Valley Road in silverdale?
SimpleDale is silverdale.

Locals tend to do that here. We call Bremerton-Bummertown and Kitsap County-Kidnap county.
 
BeanE said:
Ah well this one sounds like it's fine for a family member to collect scent items.

I'm getting the name of the verified dog handler and then I'll PM her and ask her to drop by here.
Click to expand...

What I read Robb Simmons wrote:
"Last night they brought blood hounds over, and took scent item."

So hopefully it was properly handled.
 
jessigirl said:
yes you're definately not alone in your leaning towards b. Things do not add up and I don't mean necessarily because we're dealing with an alcoholic. There are a few large pieces completely missing from this puzzle that the LE has got to be or has already investigated&just not letting the public no anything else thats been discovered. For one, we know she was "supposedly" loeaving Silverdale approx. 4:15 and we do not see her until 7:50 at Handy Pantry. Thats a huge chunk of time 3hrs 35mins. And its right at a 60mile trip. No way possible it shoulda taken almost 4hrs. Next sighting is at 9:00 at the Martin Way Diner.And the diner is 4.1 miles from Handy Pantry. (BTW I google mapped all stops&also looked at each place&routes between the stops, and it is LITERALLY IMPOSIBLE that she was lost) Ok, so she's at the diner at 9:00 and she asks for directions to I-5. As Ive seen previously bstated from locals there would be no long list of directions to get there&by looking at google earth(aerial view&street view)its literally pull out of diner,immediately turn right and that street is what directly ramps onto I-5 a mile down the road. But instead of taking that simple turn she instead continues straight out to where it quickly becomes very remote. Next sighting is Mercantile at 9:55 and it is exactly 5.4miles from the diner. Leaves Mercantile and is at the WILLIAMS 10:00-10:10(right around 10pm) The Mercantile is 1.6miles from the Williams house(literally around the corner). This is where she seems as tho she had been crying, was barefoot, and nervous about being lost. She only calls her gparents(who live all way back near Silverdale?,so why would she call them??)Tells them she's lost but is ok& getting directions from homeowners to get back on I-5. Why would she not call step-dad who had long since been expecting her, or why not RS who she knew would long since have been at step dads&also expecting her?? While she makes phone call AZ is given the slice of pizza and once again(as he did to waitress at diner)That his mommy had accident and hit her head. They gave her the simple directions of how to get to I-5, which literally would have been to take a left off of their street and would be back on Boston Harbor Rd,passing Mercantile and heading back into downtown Olympia. Where all she had to do was make 1 more left(back near diner where she when leaving there was supposed to turn right)and she would ramp on to I-5 directly from that road. There is some confusion about after she left the Williams, as some later reports said that she was seen at the Mercantile again at 10:34(tho I've never been able to find or see that video) But if that is fact then she did make the left off of the William's street and was heading in correct direction.Less than 5 miles from getting back on I-5. So she either did go to Mercantile and then instead of continuing on into Olympia she turns back to the right(direction in which she just came from) passes the Williams street 46th Ave NE and continues on Boston Harbor Road to where it looks as tho it literally forks off to the right, and that becomes Zangle Street. Had she not forked off to right onto Zangle she woulda cont'd on Boston Harbor Rd and NOT have ended up on beach. These many many hours were spent all within less than a 9mile area of Olympia. And almost 4hours unaccounted for from 4:15-7:50. This isnt just about alcohol. There is something huge that is missing. And I hope that huge piece is what LE is looking into and finding the answers to. I do not believe she is alive, but I am not entirely convinced that it was of her own accord what took place on that beach or getting to that beach...
Click to expand...
Wow, thanks for this, and confirmed some of my own questions, and you have given lots of food for thought!
 
tlcox said:
I think SS is dead. I don't mean to be so abrupt or blunt but I honestly feel she is gone. The more I think/dream on it, the more I feel they were either both swept out by the currents, or he was and she, distraught, allowed herself to be as well. I also do not believe her body will be found.

When they first went missing, I had several working theories but the longer this plays out the more convinced I am that this was a tragic accident. I know others disagree, and I respect their opinions without sharing them.

Prayers to the family. RIP little Azriel.
Click to expand...
I also think, sadly, that she is probably dead. I just think, along with some others, that there are pieces to the puzzle which are missing. I do feel very sad for them both, and for their families.
 
Okay! The verified dog handler's name is Sarx, and I've sent her a PM, explained a bit about the circumstances, and asked her to stop by when she has a chance to give us some input, so please keep an eye out for her!
 
Some things are simply tragedies...I think that by seeing so many criminal cases on this site people think there has to be a conspiracy or something

Yes she had problems..and maybe we can look at ourselves, people we know and help prevent another tragedy like this. Other than that I don't see much to "sleuth" here.

My thoughts and prayers to those who loved them
 
Jules71 said:
Snipped from:
http://www.k9sardog.com/missing_children.htm

COLLECTING SCENT ARTICLES.
Immediately gather good scent articles. NEVER let a family member or a friend of the family, hand your officer the scent articles. Only the officer or dog handler should collect these items. Note chain of custody of the scent items in your report / notebook. The officer, who does this properly, will be a hero to the dog handlers.

Take a NON SMOKING Officer / handler, he / she goes to the residence of the missing person. Put on a pair of rubber gloves and bring 2 clean paper sacks and one large plastic bag FOR EACH item to be collected.

The officer, while wearing rubber gloves, collects non-washed clothing, shoes, pillows, hairbrush, and bed sheets of missing person. Places them individually inside separate paper sacks. Closes paper sacks. Places the paper sack inside another paper sack. Closes paper sack. Places these sacks inside plastic bag and seals bag shut. Never put scent items directly into plastic bags. The plastic bag can destroy scent. Try not to expose any cigarette smoke to the scent items.

Cigarette smoke contains various poisons that desensitizes the search dog’s noses and can affect the ability of the search dog to perform his or her tasks.
Click to expand...

I'll be damned.

Thanks for that.

I guess it's too late now.
 
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