WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #6

[houndstooth]

Except, as I was talking about earlier, you are asking someone who found the items a few days earlier, who at the time thought that the items were just garbage and had no significance, and thus had no reason to make special note about exactly where each item was found.

True. But, she had a landmark. How far away and in what direction from the stairs, ma'am?
They were apparantly grouped more or less together, not individually. Like when someone leaves a beachspot or campsite type of thing.

 

[Calliope]

Except, as I was talking about earlier, you are asking someone who found the items a few days earlier, who at the time thought that the items were just garbage and had no significance, and thus had no reason to make special note about exactly where each item was found.

Are you seriously saying the person who found these items can't remember if they were together or scattered down the beach?

 

[PaulR]

Are you seriously saying the person who found these items can't remember if they were together or scattered down the beach?

What's the difference between "together" or "scattered"? One foot, five feet...?

What to us is "scattered" may be "together" for the eyewitness.

And please, mind your tone.

 

[Calliope]

OK, good. Now, let's run with that.

How far apart would the items need to be apart for you to consider it "one spot"? Literally right on top of one another? A foot? A yard? A few yards?

What number was the officer thinking of when he asked that question?

What number is the Chief Deputy thinking of?

He's been in the business long enough to know what to ask, and what he means by "found together in the same spot". I think it's clear what he meant, but if you have any questions, here's a contact email form you can use to ask him to clarify:

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/cm/email/email.asp?mod=1

 

[PaulR]

True. But, she had a landmark. How far away and in what direction from the stairs, ma'am?
They were apparantly grouped more or less together, not individually. Like when someone leaves a beachspot or campsite type of thing.

That's what we think, but I don't believe the person who retrieved the items ever made a comment that she thought they were part of a campsite or beachspot.

 

[Calliope]

What's the difference between "together" or "scattered"? One foot, five feet...?

What to us is "scattered" may be "together" for the eyewitness.

And please, mind your tone.

My tone? lol

The deputy stated they were found together in the same spot. Now if you want to question how far apart they were or if they were teetering atop of one another, I can't help you except to point you to the email contact link posted above.

 

[PaulR]

He's been in the business long enough to know what to ask, and what he means by "found together in the same spot". I think it's clear what he meant, but if you have any questions, here's a contact email form you can use to ask him to clarify:

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/cm/email/email.asp?mod=1

Irrelevant, the Chief Deputy wasn't there when the items were found. And he's been in the business long enough to know that people aren't great eyewitnesses, and are bad at estimating distances.

Did the CD even talk to the woman who found the items?

 

[Calliope]

Irrelevant, the Chief Deputy wasn't there when the items were found. And he's been in the business long enough to know that people aren't great eyewitnesses, and are bad at estimating distances.

Did the CD even talk to the woman who found the items?

Probably not. He's just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

 

[SMK]

OK, good. Now, let's run with that.

How far apart would the items need to be apart for you to consider it "one spot"? Literally right on top of one another? A foot? A yard? A few yards?

What number was the officer thinking of when he asked that question?

What number is the Chief Deputy thinking of?

For a chief deputy of the investigation - which involves a dead child and a presumed dead female still in her 20s - for him to tell a journalist (and the Examiner article ranks high on the Google newsfeed, regardless of what some may think of the Examiner) he "found it peculiar that they should all be in that same spot", sounds to me as if he is indicating feet together, not yards (the word "spot")

 

[Calliope]

For a chief deputy of the investigation - which involves a dead child and a presumed dead female still in her 20s - for him to tell a journalist (and the Examiner article ranks high on the Google newsfeed, regardless of what some may think of the Examiner) he "found it peculiar that they should all be in that same spot", sounds to me as if he is indicating feet together, not yards (the word "spot")

And ... "He found it peculiar, he said, that the items would all be found at the same location on the beach."

 

[SMK]

Irrelevant, the Chief Deputy wasn't there when the items were found. And he's been in the business long enough to know that people aren't great eyewitnesses, and are bad at estimating distances.

Did the CD even talk to the woman who found the items?

He would be required to, and she would have to sign the statement, if he is following protocol (which one must assume he would)

 

[SMK]

And ... "He found it peculiar, he said, that the items would all be found at the same location on the beach."

:loser:Uh, Oh, MY very bad error. The word "spot" was in my mind's eye: So much for my photographic memory. "Spot" would have me think inches and feet, "Location" could conceivably be yards. :sick: So Sorry!:sick:

 

[Calliope]

He would be required to, and she would have to sign the statement, if he is following protocol (which one must assume he would)

Here's another link in case the above doesn't work. Just scroll down to "Sheriff - Business Only (360) 786-5500 Send an E-mail Message".

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/tc_phones_email.htm

 

[PaulR]

For a chief deputy of the investigation - which involves a dead child and a presumed dead female still in her 20s - for him to tell a journalist (and the Examiner article ranks high on the Google newsfeed, regardless of what some may think of the Examiner) he "found it peculiar that they should all be in that same spot", sounds to me as if he is indicating feet together, not yards (the word "spot")

Right, and that is my perception of what he meant, and what he thinks.

The problem is humans are bad at estimating distances. (When was the last time someone told you to something was a mile away, and it ended up being more like ten?)

So you've got someone who found items a few days earlier, who I'm guessing may well pick up garbage off the beach at other times, and the police are asking her how close it was together.

I wouldn't expect her to give an accurate answer. She's guessing from memory, and she's being honest about it, but if she picks up the inhaler, then takes a few steps to pick up the ball, maybe a few more steps to pick up the wine jug - all of a sudden those items were scattered over yards, not feet.

An article on how poorly we can be at judging distance: http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2005/10/physical_exertion_impacts_our.php

 

[Calliope]

:loser:Uh, Oh, MY very bad error. The word "spot" was in my mind's eye: So much for my photographic memory. "Spot" would have me think inches and feet, "Location" could conceivably be yards. :sick: So Sorry!:sick:

You were right the first time, taking everything he said in context. He says, "that spot", "same location" and at the base of the stairs. And that he knows they didn't float out of the van and happen to appear together in that spot. It's clear the items were together and not scattered down the beach---close enough that he thinks they were dropped at or near where they were found.

The items were about 50-60 yards from the house, just down a steep stairway," Chamberlain said.

He found it peculiar, he said, that the items would all be found at the same location on the beach. Chamberlain said he does not believe the items were washed out to sea as originally believed because of the difference in weight and size of the items. He believes it is more likely Shantina and Azriel walked down the beach and that they had the items with them.

"It is unlikely they would all float to that spot,"

 

[BeanE]

Let me see if I can help here. Here's everything about the position of the items. I've marked which are direct quotes, and which not.

The only one who knows for sure what Chamberlain meant - is Chamberlain, and he's not here. Everyone who is here is entitled to interpret and perceive Chamberlain's meaning as they wish.

Please discuss with respect, and curtail the bickering.


Direct quote:

"It was interesting that the items belonging to Shantina and Azriel found on the beach were just below the housing development where this house is located. The items were about 50-60 yards from the house, just down a steep stairway," Chamberlain said.

Not a direct quote - the reporter's interpretation of what Chamberlain said:

He found it peculiar, he said, that the items would all be found at the same location on the beach.

Direct quote:

"It is unlikely they would all float to that spot," Chamberlain said.

 

[Calliope]

Right, and that is my perception of what he meant, and what he thinks.

The problem is humans are bad at estimating distances. (When was the last time someone told you to something was a mile away, and it ended up being more like ten?)

So you've got someone who found items a few days earlier, who I'm guessing may well pick up garbage off the beach at other times, and the police are asking her how close it was together.

I wouldn't expect her to give an accurate answer. She's guessing from memory, and she's being honest about it, but if she picks up the inhaler, then takes a few steps to pick up the ball, maybe a few more steps to pick up the wine jug - all of a sudden those items were scattered over yards, not feet.

An article on how poorly we can be at judging distance: http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2005/10/physical_exertion_impacts_our.php

Since you don't believe what the deputy said, what's your point? I am truly trying to understand what you're getting at here.

 

[SMK]

Direct quote:

"It is unlikely they would all float to that spot," Chamberlain said.(From Bean above, Examiner piece)

OK, at least that word "spot" was in fact used by the investigator. Yes, I agree, people may not recall with much accuracy distances, etc. But she would know how much walking it took to gather the items, one would think. Also, I am from the greater New York metro area, and it seems police here always take statements, have you sign, for the littlest report of things , but for all I know , out there in Thurston County, they may do differently. I suppose in this sense, some of this is conjecture. . . . :crazy:

 

[BeanE]

Has anyone checked the public records laws in WA and whether the LE reports etc are available to be requested/ordered online? Or perhaps if the reports are public record, one of our locals would be willing to go over to the clerk's office and pick them up and scan 'em and link 'em in.

Note that there may be a fee for the reports, which vary widely from state to state and even county to county.

 

[SMK]

Has anyone checked the public records laws in WA and whether the LE reports etc are available to be requested/ordered online? Or perhaps if the reports are public record, one of our locals would be willing to go over to the clerk's office and pick them up and scan 'em and link 'em in.

Note that there may be a fee for the reports, which vary widely from state to state and even county to county.

That is a good idea!