WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #6

[elf69]

Has anyone checked the public records laws in WA and whether the LE reports etc are available to be requested/ordered online? Or perhaps if the reports are public record, one of our locals would be willing to go over to the clerk's office and pick them up and scan 'em and link 'em in.

Note that there may be a fee for the reports, which vary widely from state to state and even county to county.

I think that's a great idea also. I am fairly local and would be more than happy to pick up an reports. So, maybe someone that is more along the lines of a professional, ie, reporter, journalist, etc could order them and I could take a little road trip.

 

[PaulR]

Has anyone checked the public records laws in WA and whether the LE reports etc are available to be requested/ordered online? Or perhaps if the reports are public record, one of our locals would be willing to go over to the clerk's office and pick them up and scan 'em and link 'em in.

Note that there may be a fee for the reports, which vary widely from state to state and even county to county.

Good idea.

LE may not give out records if the case is still considered "open" which it may be, since they haven't found her body. Worth a try, though!

 

[Calliope]

Has anyone checked the public records laws in WA and whether the LE reports etc are available to be requested/ordered online? Or perhaps if the reports are public record, one of our locals would be willing to go over to the clerk's office and pick them up and scan 'em and link 'em in.

Note that there may be a fee for the reports, which vary widely from state to state and even county to county.

Does WA have a "sunshine law" like FL? My other question would be if they'd be able to release information on a case that's still open?

 

[yosande]

Right, and that is my perception of what he meant, and what he thinks.

The problem is humans are bad at estimating distances. (When was the last time someone told you to something was a mile away, and it ended up being more like ten?)

So you've got someone who found items a few days earlier, who I'm guessing may well pick up garbage off the beach at other times, and the police are asking her how close it was together.

I wouldn't expect her to give an accurate answer. She's guessing from memory, and she's being honest about it, but if she picks up the inhaler, then takes a few steps to pick up the ball, maybe a few more steps to pick up the wine jug - all of a sudden those items were scattered over yards, not feet.

An article on how poorly we can be at judging distance: http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2005/10/physical_exertion_impacts_our.php

bbm, no has ever told me something was a mile away only to discover it was more like 10 miles away. Nor have I ever heard that happen to anyone else.

second bbm, I would think that LE did not ask how close they were together, but rather where she found each item. Since she lives in the area, and frequents the beach in question, imo she would have a better memory of where each item was found, since she would be familiar with landmarks, like the pier, steps, trees, and even certain rock or wood formations on the beach. But that's just my opinion.

It would be helpful if you would clarify what you think she saw, but is unable to remember, that is, your theory on where the items were found and how they got there, and how you came to your conclusions, or if you are just trying to defame the witness like a defense attorney. Since there isn't a suspect, and LE has stated that there is no evidence of foul play, it is unclear why you would be doing that. thanks in advance.

 

[BeanE]

Does WA have a "sunshine law" like FL? My other question would be if they'd be able to release information on a case that's still open?

I don't think any state is as open as FL. Wish they were.

I'll see if I can find the public records laws for that state and how you get the different types of reports.

Somebody up above mentioned about a professional such as a reporter getting the reports and documents. It's almost always more expensive when a professional requests them because they are then assumed to be for commercial use such as in media reports. Reporters have no more access. If a record is public, it's public. They just have more money and more motivation to get them.

Let me see what I can find.

 

[yosande]

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Shantina%20Smiley%20-%20Azriel%20Carver/

The archive album has about as much as I can find, until Shantina is found.

Going by the water temp chart, she should have surfaced. It has been 26 days.
Unless she is caught up in branches or something.

bump, and tyvm for this valuable data collection.

 

[yosande]

I agree. I had hoped for a more thorough canvassing of the surrounding area and of Boston Harbor. Someone could have seen something that night/morning. Imo, there were relatively few local news reports. Many locals I've talked to had not even heard of this case, which is concerning to me.

I have not seen any fliers posted in the Olympia area, and I travel the area daily and frequent a number of businesses, office buildings, etc. If fliers have been posted here, there were/are not enough ~ jmo

This is disturbing information, imo.

 

[BeanE]

Looks like police reports are public record. May need a case number to get them.


Thurston County Clerk's Office
2000 Lakeridge Drive SW, Bldg. 2
Olympia, WA 98502

Phone: (360) 786-5430

Web: http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/clerk/


You can also order police reports from the Washington State Police online and receive them in electronic format here:

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/publications/pub_record_req.php

ETA: I just remembered there are two counties involved here. If you want the police reports from the van/beach area, I don't think that's Thurston County. It's whatever county the M.E. is from who took care of Azriel's body. You want the clerk's office for that county. They'll have a web site and you can see if you can order copies of police reports online or if you have to go to the office or if you can mail in a request. Along with non-commercial being less expensive, non-certified is also less expensive, and you don't need certified documents. Certified documents are for legal purposes.

Hope this helps.

 

[bobcat]

ETA: I just remembered there are two counties involved here. If you want the police reports from the van/beach area, I don't think that's Thurston County. It's whatever county the M.E. is from who took care of Azriel's body.

Azriel's body was found on Fox Island, in Pierce County. Everything else took place in Thurston County.

 

[BeanE]

Second request.

Please discuss with respect, and curtail the bickering.

 

[PaulR]

You appear to dismiss the credibility of online publications, law enforcement, and now the witness, and since we are suppose to be on the same side as you say, I am confused as to why this is happening.

If you have a theory you would like to share, so we can all know the direction you are thinking, that might be helpful.

How am I dismissing their credibility?

I think LE is right - they think there was no foul play involved. They've stated that Az's drowning was accidental. They spent time searching the water and beaches, and the dogs could not track any scent of her getting off the beach. They think she drowned.

I think the person who found the items did find them on the beach, and found them together. None of us knows how close together the items were found. As far as I know, nobody - the finder, LE, the Deputy Sheriff - has said what they meant by the items being found "together." One foot? Five feet? Ten yards?

I've already stated my belief about what happened to them, many times.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

I also think Shantina is in the Sound, drowned.

I do have a question/problem...
Some say the house at the top of the stairs is where the knocking/pounding was heard.
BUT---
That particular home doesn't match the address of the Grimmers who reported the pounding.

The stairs lead to a huge deck attached to a huge home. If she was trying to get help, she would knock there first. Not go onto the property, hop a fence, go across the street to pound on another garage.

PLUS... the dogs, many dogs, picked up no scent.

She's in the Sound, IMO.

To the best of my knowledge, this map is accurate:

 

[Jules71]

it's been mentioned before in earlier threads that it was super windy that night and there is a chance that the banging was tree branches knocking against the house. on the other hand, soft earth and rain could have made any footprints difficult to see or wash them away...

I too find it odd that the water search/anysearching for SS has seemingly ceased. It is a long time to just wait around and hope she surfaces.

Here is a picture of the Grimmer's house from the Co Assessors office from 2009. I don't think there are any trees close that could account for the banging/knocking.


Also I have read both - knocking on house, knocking on garage:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/sh...ewes-evidence-washes-ashore/story?id=10134521

"Among the leads to emerge was the report from Charles Grimmer, who lives a half a mile from the beach where Smiley's van was found in the water. Grimmer reported that someone had knocked loudly and repeatedly on the garage door about 1 a.m. Sunday, Mealy told ABC News. "

http://www.nwcn.com/home/Fiance-Items-found-belonged-to-missing-woman-son-88432872.html

"We heard banging on the side of the house," said Rachel Grimmer about the sounds outside her house at 1 a.m. Sunday Morning. "It just kind of startled us because no one is ever out here, never ever see anyone out here at night."

 

[RubyRed]

Thanks AR and Jules. The map and the pic of the house help.
I do not believe Shantina is with us any longer.

 

[Calliope]

Here is a picture of the Grimmer's house from the Co Assessors office from 2009. I don't think there are any trees close that could account for the banging/knocking.
View attachment 8683

<snipped for space>

"We heard banging on the side of the house," said Rachel Grimmer about the sounds outside her house at 1 a.m. Sunday Morning. "It just kind of startled us because no one is ever out here, never ever see anyone out here at night."

That was a direct quote... and you're right. No trees could have accounted for the banging noise they heard. Good find

 

[BeanE]

That was a direct quote... and you're right. No trees could have accounted for the banging noise they heard. Good find

The Grimmers didn't think it was trees either. I don't recall them ever mentioning they thought trees were a possibility. Rather, they thought it was a person - a person trying to get in their house. So sure, that they turned on their alarm system, which obviously they normally felt safe enough at that hour of the night to leave off.

Also of note is that Mr was half asleep, but Mrs was awake. No "I was asleep and thought I heard knocking".

Because Grimmer said specifically that it was four knocks, I've thought from the beginning that it was Azriel knocking. I think a child would be more apt to give up when no one answered than a mom would. I think a mom would move down the wall, find a door or window, and pound and yell some more. Not that I'm an expert on door knocking behavorial patterns.


Grimmer said he was half-asleep as his wife, Rachel, was watching a movie, and they heard the loud knocks.

&#8220;Bang, bang bang bang,&#8221; Grimmer said, describing four knocks. He said his wife was frightened.

&#8220;We were thinking someone was trying to get in,&#8221; Grimmer said.

He said he activated the home&#8217;s alarm system, then went to front door and looked outside, but he could see no one.

http://www.theolympian.com/2010/03/18/1176112/clues-add-to-mystery.html#ixzz0klhkdA2I

 

[Calliope]

The Grimmers didn't think it was trees either. I don't recall them ever mentioning they thought trees were a possibility. Rather, they thought it was a person - a person trying to get in their house. So sure, that they turned on their alarm system, which obviously they normally felt safe enough at that hour of the night to leave off.

Also of note is that Mr was half asleep, but Mrs was awake. No "I was asleep and thought I heard knocking".

Because Grimmer said specifically that it was four knocks, I've thought from the beginning that it was Azriel knocking. I think a child would be more apt to give up when no one answered than a mom would. I think a mom would move down the wall, find a door or window, and pound and yell some more. Not that I'm an expert on door knocking behavorial patterns.


Grimmer said he was half-asleep as his wife, Rachel, was watching a movie, and they heard the loud knocks.

“Bang, bang bang bang,” Grimmer said, describing four knocks. He said his wife was frightened.

“We were thinking someone was trying to get in,” Grimmer said.

He said he activated the home’s alarm system, then went to front door and looked outside, but he could see no one.

http://www.theolympian.com/2010/03/18/1176112/clues-add-to-mystery.html#ixzz0klhkdA2I

I wonder sometimes if that's a red-herring, so to speak, then I think maybe it WAS either Azriel or Shantina or someone who was with them. If it was either of them, perhaps they went to that house because they saw lights on. If it was either of them, why did they knock on the house? Did Azriel have an asthma attack and Shantina ran to get help? Did Shantina have a 'brain event' and Azriel went there for help for his mom?

 

[BeanE]

I wonder sometimes if that's a red-herring, so to speak, then I think maybe it WAS either Azriel or Shantina or someone who was with them. If it was either of them, perhaps they went to that house because they saw lights on. If it was either of them, why did they knock on the house? Did Azriel have an asthma attack and Shantina ran to get help? Did Shantina have a 'brain event' and Azriel went there for help for his mom?

I think if they both were at the house, then mom would have kept knocking. Four knocks just isn't enough when you're a mom stranded in the middle of the night in the dark at a beach.

And if they were both at the door, and both fine, and just being polite and not wanting to wake anyone, what would they do then? Go back down to the beach? I don't think so. They'd have headed to the next house with lights on. But we know that Az, at least, went back down to the beach. He had to have a compelling reason to do that rather than go on to the next house with a light.

So if it was Azriel knocking, then mom was in distress, intoxicated, drowning, brain event, swept out of the van, swept away in the water, passed out, whatever.

If it was Shantina knocking, then Azriel was in distress, drowning, asthma, swept out of van, swept away in water, whatever. It could be she was in a panic and felt compelled to run back to him after four knocks. We know he did, in fact, drown, so it's logical and reasonable that she could have been panicking and gave up after four knocks.

But I also think it's likely she was intoxicated or having a brain event, so I don't think she was running around at all. I think it was Az, not knowing what the heck to do, that he gave up after four knocks, and in a panic ran back to her, and drowned.

Who do you think was more likely knocking, Calliope? I've been over this in my head so many times it makes me crazy lol.

 

[yosande]

The Grimmers didn't think it was trees either. I don't recall them ever mentioning they thought trees were a possibility. Rather, they thought it was a person - a person trying to get in their house. So sure, that they turned on their alarm system, which obviously they normally felt safe enough at that hour of the night to leave off.

Also of note is that Mr was half asleep, but Mrs was awake. No "I was asleep and thought I heard knocking".

Because Grimmer said specifically that it was four knocks, I've thought from the beginning that it was Azriel knocking. I think a child would be more apt to give up when no one answered than a mom would. I think a mom would move down the wall, find a door or window, and pound and yell some more. Not that I'm an expert on door knocking behavorial patterns.


Grimmer said he was half-asleep as his wife, Rachel, was watching a movie, and they heard the loud knocks.

&#8220;Bang, bang bang bang,&#8221; Grimmer said, describing four knocks. He said his wife was frightened.

&#8220;We were thinking someone was trying to get in,&#8221; Grimmer said.

He said he activated the home&#8217;s alarm system, then went to front door and looked outside, but he could see no one.

http://www.theolympian.com/2010/03/18/1176112/clues-add-to-mystery.html#ixzz0klhkdA2I

because they thought someone was trying to get in, is it possible that what they heard was someone trying to open the garage door. If someone were to grap the the handle and attempt to open the door that the car would go through, the big door, and attempt to lift it up, twice, it would make a bang going up, then another coming down, and repeated once more. They say it was the garage door, and I'm assuming it is the one the car goes through, whether someone took their fist and banged on it four times, or grabbed the handle and attempted to open the door twice, but it was locked, does anyone think the sounds would be the same, or similiar enough for them to mistake it as knocking?

just pondering.

Eta; if the sound they heard was someone shaking the door via the handle, is it possible that they didn't want help, they simply wanted them to hear the sound, to point LE in a certain direction, as with all the other "props."

though I don't know why anyone would want to stage the van, the items on the beach, and the knocking on the garage door in an attempt to lead LE away from the beach, or even the area, it does make sense to me that is a possibility that the sounds are a part of the propping. jmo, and fwiw.

 

[yosande]

I also think Shantina is in the Sound, drowned.

I do have a question/problem...
Some say the house at the top of the stairs is where the knocking/pounding was heard.
BUT---
That particular home doesn't match the address of the Grimmers who reported the pounding.

The stairs lead to a huge deck attached to a huge home. If she was trying to get help, she would knock there first. Not go onto the property, hop a fence, go across the street to pound on another garage.

PLUS... the dogs, many dogs, picked up no scent.

She's in the Sound, IMO.

To the best of my knowledge, this map is accurate:

it is my understanding that that house is for sale, and empty, however, I could be wrong. This info was posted earlier by another poster, who linked to a real estate agency who had it on their site........