Identified! WA - Snohomish Co., WhtFem 516UFWA, 15-22, hitchhiker, Aug 1977 - Lisa Roberts

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i've kept overlooking betty, but as she is not on the rule out list, has hair style (killer was very specific about that) thought it was worth a look. i am wondering if there was any investigation into what flight she may have left on (if she did so?)

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1838/625/

also i know earlier there was discussion about whether or not we could tell if SJD had given birth.

christine, any word on that?
 
i've kept overlooking betty, but as she is not on the rule out list, has hair style (killer was very specific about that) thought it was worth a look. i am wondering if there was any investigation into what flight she may have left on (if she did so?)

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1838/625/

also i know earlier there was discussion about whether or not we could tell if SJD had given birth.

christine, any word on that?

Oh gosh, I am so overwhelmed with cases ,I have let another fall to the wayside.....let me reread and see what I am supposed to be doing.

DO NOT HESITATE TO NAG...PM, CALL, EMAIL!
 
bump. 32 year anniversary coming up next week. its hard to believe that after all this time no one has missed this beautiful girl.

hopefully someone somewhere will remember something. 32 years is too long to go without a name.
 
here is the last list of rule outs we have:

Maria Florence Anjiras 08-10-61 DNA
Cheryl Ann Moser Iacovone 04-22-60 DNA
Rose Lena Cole 12-23-56 DNA
Mary Rachael Trlica 11-15-57 DNA
Corinne June Groenenberg 10-14-57 DNA
Debra T. Pscholka 11-07-58 DNA
Roxanne Marie Sims 11-25-58 DNA
Kimberly Ann Stewart 03-22-56 DNA/Dental
Cherry Ann Greenman 05-07-56 DNA/Prints
Danuta Theresa Vann 11-12-54 Fingerprints
Myrna Loy Stone 02-16-39 Fingerprints
Rhonda Louise Burse 12-11-55 Fingerprints
Melanie Dee Flynn 11-24-52 Dental
Yvonne Reglar 07-11-60 Dental
Diane Marie Schulte 09-16-54 Dental
Laurie Lynn Partridge 05-31-57 Dental
Audrey Lyn Nerenberg 09-24-58 Dental
Laura L. Flink 05-15-47 Dental
Barbara Kay Jolly 08-03-57 Dental
Jamie Rachel Grissim 11-11-55 Dental
Donna Gail Manson 06-09-54 Dental
Angela M. Meeker 07-09-65 Dental
Debra L. Otis 04-05-61 Dental
Barbara Annette McClure 05-19-54 Dental
Christina Lee White 03-03-67 Dental
Marcia Lynn Joyce 06-27-50 Dental
Linda Mary Adams 02-02-63 Dental
Joyce Lee Kennedy 03-28-33 Dental
Nancy E. Glovick 08-17-43 Dental
Linda Sue Endorf 02-12-45 Dental
Esther Mae Gesler 05-16-38 Dental/Age
Lorelee Sue Lhotka 06-22-55 Race
Deborah Ann Quimby 10-09-63 Height/Age
Angela Sigrid Ramsey 05-16-61 Height
Karen Beth Kamsch 01-19-62 Height
Teresa Gail Cupps 04-08-57 Height/Tattoo
Althea Dayle Blankinship 10-24-49 Age
Charlotta Marie Sanchez 02-10-67 Age
Elsie Eldora Luscier 01-30-66 Age
Terry Gail Johnson 05-17-52 Boat Accident
Cynthia Ardina Leslie 02-01-59 Circumstances
Joyce C. Brewer 01-24-55 or 57 Body burn scars
 
i found noreen again (having forgotten previous possibles) and the resemblance for me is still uncanny: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2782dfon.html

any word on LE and SJD having given birth? It would be great to get all the info off the original report. Plus, any additional information not listed in press that LE got from Roth....even the tiniest new detail might jog someone's memory.

i wondered if the info was passed around to area schools and unis, for instance.
 
christine, would you mind if i contacted LE to get an update on rule outs?
 
i spent yesterday scouring newspaper online archives for girls missing in august 1977.

nothing that fit. any ideas on other keyword searches that have worked in the past?

i tried missing, missing girl, missing woman, search continues....
 
here is a new wild theory i have been mulling over. maybe convos with the LE will totally dismiss it, or someone (like anthrobones) can tell me why a misidentification may have occurred initially.

according to this interview: http://missingpiecesshow.homestead.com/MissingPiecesEpisode96Archive.html

the ME originally thought Jane was a John. is there anyway the initial impression was correct? could she have been an effeminate or transgender male?

that would certainly explain the rage/overkill and the severe destruction to her face. Roth has hinted more recently about "a hidden motive" beyond SJD merely refusing his sexual advances. He says its because she threatened her two boyfriends would beat him up. Something about this doesn't ring true, when you consider she was hitchhiking and willing took the detour with him. Its that detour that has never, ever made sense to me...especially with the rash of missing and murdered women occuring across the country (and in the press) during this era.

and the details from Roth's recent interviews also make me scratch my head. She was wearing her watch on her left hand but smoked with her right. She spoke in a monotone. No bra, mens style clothing. No color treatment, no purse or other items.

I read somewhere she was wearing pink underpants, but that isn't in any of the other reports.

i would love a fresh set of eyes to mull this over with.....
 
Most people wear a watch on the opposite of their dominant hand...for ease in putting it on. I am left-handed and wear my watch on my right arm.
 
The info that this girl was originally thought to be a male was something I hadn't heard before. I see that there is a DNA profile on her. Shouldn't the DNA be able to tell for sure what the sex is? Although there is a case on Doe Network where partial remains were found and it states that a DNA profile was done but also says the sex and race are undetermined! Does that mean they weren't able to get a complete DNA profile or what? It makes you wonder about Snohomish Jane Doe, whether the DNA proved the sex or if it was determined by an anthropologist by pelvis shape, etc. She was dressed as a woman and had average sized feet for a woman. I think the absence of a bra is not that odd. A lot of young women in the 70s quit wearing them. She is tall for a woman, but not unusually so. I know several women who are that tall.
I also don't think they can go by the uneruption of wisdom teeth to judge her age. I got one wisdom tooth in my mid-twenties, another in my mid-thirties, and my dentist says I will never get the other two. I also have a good friend who got her first two wisdom teeth at the age of 38! She was also told the other two would never erupt. While it might be a little unusual to get wisdom teeth at an older age, this shows that it does happen.
As to which arm the watch was on, I am right-handed and wear my watch on my left wrist. I don't think I could buckle it with my left hand if I wanted to wear it on my right wrist.
If she was a runaway, maybe her family never reported her missing because they didn't care or because she was running away from abuse that they didn't want anyone to know about. Or maybe they knew she left voluntarily because it was a troubled family and they just assumed she made a life somewhere else. There are some cases on Doe Network in which missing teens had run away several times before, so maybe whoever was responsible for her was tired of trying to track her down and didn't report it. Also, there are cases from the 70s in which if you were at least 18 the police wouldn't file a missing persons report unless there were obvious signs of foul play. A good example is Jeanne Melville who disappeared at the age of 18 in 1970 but the police wouldn't file a report. So when a body was found in the same state a little while later, there was no missing persons report to match the person to. She was just positively identified this year! Maybe Snohomish Jane Doe left home voluntarily in the 70s and no report was ever filed by police. Sometimes these unidentified teens make me wonder if the family does know the body was found but don't want to come forward because they are hiding something from the past, perhaps sexual or physical abuse in the home.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
 
As far as the question about being a man vs. a woman goes-- I've seen this in a few cases. There is a case I've looked into quite a bit in Mass and for awhile LE and the media was reporting it as the remains of a man. They even had it checked against a man who went missing from the area. After several months a forensic anthropologist came to the conclusion that the remains weren't from a man but from a heavy set woman. Occasionally this case has come up in summaries of area cold cases and the UID is sometimes still referred to as male although they've proven pretty much that it was a woman.

My feeling on this is that sometimes when the remains are very badly decomposed people make snap judgments based on measurements. In this case, UID was tall and lacking feminine undergarments and that probably led to the assumption that the body was male not female at first glance. If ME recorded that thought, it's probably been passed around that this was a male to at least some outlets and those references will remain in the public eye. By now though it seems pretty conclusive that this was a female, possibly with some more masculine traits. The thought of a transsexual may be worth investigating but it seems to me that at this time they are certain this was a female victim.
 
i don't remember if we have discussed possible match with ingrid: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/908dfon.html

but i don't see her on the list of rule outs.

here is why i like her:

age
height
hair color (it says she had blonde hair but it looks darker. as a former blond, i also started to go towards brown after puberty)
she was not carrying id
she hitchhiked

there was some indication that she was abducted and met with foul play, but you never know.

any thoughts?
 
i can't remember if we have discussed susan labbe before, but she looks really similar to the composite.

there are the considerations of height and distance, but i could suppose she could have hitchhiked over time...and grown. although 5 inches post puberty....?

it would be a pretty easy look see at dentals to rule her out for sure....
 
I thought the same thing about Susan Rhonda Labbe. To me her picture and Jane's sketch look so much alike.

But then there's all the logistical things like the height and weight and of course the question of what happened in those years between '74 and '77. I guess it's possible she was a runaway even though her case file says she was trying to hitchhike from her parent's to her boyfriend's home.

I might check it out just in case.
 
A little new news...

I contacted the LE (very nice and helpful, as he has been in the past!) and he was able to look at Jane's autopsy which shows no signs of her ever giving birth. So that's at least some new info for us to help narrow the scope.

In other news, I had asked him about the list of names he had requested from the FBI that were purged from the system of missing women from the 70s and early 80s. What they handed him back was a list of over 39,000 names. The list gives no reason for the women having been removed, and with marriage/name changes it really is an impossible task to try and track down everyone on the list.

So...he stresses that through continued outreach we can hopefully encourage families to re-list their missing love ones. Here are his two suggestions for outreach messages:

"There are two things that the public needs to know.

1) If a person was reported missing years ago, they may have been removed from NCIC without being located. Loved ones need to verify with the Law Enforcement Agency they filed their missing report with, that they are still listed as a missing person. If they are no longer listed as missing, they need to be entered again.

2) Parents, siblings and children of missing persons need to provide a saliva sample to Law Enforcement. This sample can be sent to the University of North Texas-Health Science Center where a DNA profile can be developed. That profile can be compared to DNA profiles from all of the human remains that are on file and yet unidentified. Some matches will be made!"

please post this on your blogs, myspace pages, and other threads....and let's get the word out that people need to check to see if their loved ones are still registered as missing.

I have noticed on doe and elsewhere some old/new cases popping up as well as a flurry of identifications so I know it is possible for "cold cases" to finally be resolved, especially if we can encourage families to take the necessary steps.
 

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