Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[golfmom]

Unfortunately in almost every group that claimed they were a religion but were in reality acting as a cult they have had no truly benevolent leaders. There always seems to be someone who weasles their way into power or seizes power, and is more cunning, vicious/sadistic who portrays themselves outwardly as a good person when they are rotten to the core. It's not just the women and children who suffer, but the men who aren't in the hierarchy as well.

Why do they all seem to collect expensive cars?

 

[Clearly Confused]

The below link takes you to pics of the foster facilities. They look super nice. Scroll down and on the right side it says "touring the sect children's new homes"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5724209.html

Those girls are going from pastel to fluorescent...they might go into shock.

 

[mollymalone]

Why do they all seem to collect expensive cars?

While denying the basics to their followers! It's a do as I say versus do as I do concept. :waitasec:

 

[Clearly Confused]

Birth certificates really aren't a problem. Child born "at home", mother says father is unknown. Mother says she is 18. Mother says she has no other children. Doctor signs off on them (either a doctor who doesn't normally treat them, or a doctor cooperative with the FLDS.) Who is there to say that mother knows who the father is, what the mother's actual age is, or how many other children she might have? The mother doesn't have to produce her birth certificate to prove her age.

Thanks mysteriew and everyone else. I was asking about the birth certificate because were I live you do need to provide one for each child and for yourself. I suppose welfare fraud is more common here.

 

[southcitymom]

I'm a huge homeschooling fan as well. What I didn't like though was that Jeffs forced ALL the children to leave public school. If you didn't pull your children out, you got kicked out.

Again, it's that choice thingy.

And that's the thing - is your "choice" taken away if you are indoctrinated? We could argue that while Jeffs forced these parents to keep their kids out of public school, the parents accepted this direction willingly and felt like it was their own decision.

Don't know if that makes sense or not.

 

[golfmom]

And that's the thing - is your "choice" taken away if you are indoctrinated? We could argue that while Jeffs forced these parents to keep their kids out of public school, the parents accepted this direction willingly and felt like it was their own decision.

Don't know if that makes sense or not.

Well, under his guidance, women lost the right to chose who and when they'd marry and children lost the right to an education.

Here's a link to some photos from Alta Academy where Jeffs was the principal: http://thehopeorg.org/photos_Alta_Academy.html

From what I've read, this was where he really worked hard on indoctrinating the children. They were encouraged and rewarded for turning their parents in for behavior that Jeffs wouldn't approve.

 

[Leila]

He sure is. I've been confused about the fact that he's been allowed to have visitors, receive mail and make calls. That's all good if that was allowed so LE can snoop and obtain more info. Otherwise he needs to be cut off from any outside contact.

Suzy...............I think Jeffs is still very much in control of the FLDS. Being allowed visitors and phone calls, he still controls his followers from his jail cell. One of the most disturbing aspects of Marilyn's tour of her home was seeing Jeffs picture on the walls......in the hallway, in the bedrooms, everywhere.

But even if Jeffs were removed, there's other FLDS men who I think are just as evil. Merrill Jessop is the first that comes to mind, and as the person in charge of the YFZ ranch, where is he?

 

[golfmom]

Oh My . . . . :silenced: :silenced: :silenced:

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm

2. Barack Hussein OBAMA Sr. was born in 1936 in Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya and died in a car crash in Nairobi, Kenya in 1982, leaving three wives, six sons and a daughter.

Hussein Onyango OBAMA had several wives. His first wife was Helima, with whom he had no children.

 

[southcitymom]

Well, under his guidance, women lost the right to chose who and when they'd marry and children lost the right to an education.

Here's a link to some photos from Alta Academy where Jeffs was the principal: http://thehopeorg.org/photos_Alta_Academy.html

From what I've read, this was where he really worked hard on indoctrinating the children. They were encouraged and rewarded for turning their parents in for behavior that Jeffs wouldn't approve.

Very interesting photos - thanks for the link.

Now - back to the "choice" question - did all of these women truly lose their right to decide who to marry or would some of these women tell you "I want and choose to marry whoever Jeffs tells me to."?

Did all these children lose their right to an education or did their parents believe they were choosing to educate them in a different way?

I hear you about the indoctrination and don't know if I am clearly expressing myself. Let's say my mainstream church pastor tells me over and over again that I will not go to heaven if I don't purple popsicles (or insert the sin of your choice here. If I believe the pastor and stop eating purple popsicles, would I be making a choice or would I have been brainwashed by a religious leader?

This all comes down to the cult/religion question. I know there are distinctions between what is a cult and what is a religion - I studied them in some depth in college. They were never particularly meaningful to me. All religions have cultish elements and all cults have religious elements.

When is one genuinely brainswashed as opposed to choosing to follow something that sounds good to them?

 

[southcitymom]

Oh My . . . . :silenced: :silenced: :silenced:

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm

2. Barack Hussein OBAMA Sr. was born in 1936 in Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya and died in a car crash in Nairobi, Kenya in 1982, leaving three wives, six sons and a daughter.

Hussein Onyango OBAMA had several wives. His first wife was Helima, with whom he had no children.

Polygamy has fairly ancient roots and is still practiced in some cultures. Again - that's not something that bothers me.

 

[Leila]

Although I share the same sentiment, it's unlikely he'll be cut off from outside contact. Unless it could be shown that he was using those outside contacts to plot something violent against authorities/govt etc. he'll continue to wield his power over his followers.

As I understand it, Warren Jeffs is being held in a jail cell in Mohave County, AZ, awaiting another trial. There's a hearing for Jeffs tomorrow. So, he hasn't been sent to a prison yet. I wonder if his ability to communicate will be curtailed once he's sent to prison?

 

[Spydernweb]

You know, I could actually live with their polygamy issues if
a) they entered into it willingly
b) they were adults
c) they didn't attempt to claim absent fathers and welfare benefits for the children
d) both male and female members were free to leave the society if they wished. And free to come and go from the community when they wish.
e) all births and deaths were properly reported to the county, state, feds.
f.) all children received a formal education, at least through grade 12.

Yes, polygamy is illegal. But how many marriages don't have some adultery happen at some time. Right, no. But it is reality. But because they formally recognize it, it is illegal. If they as adults wish to give permission for their spouses to have relationships with others, why should I object?

As far as the communal living aspect, again that is their choice. But when they choose to turn their income over to the church, the church should be responsible for the education of the children beyond the 12 th grade if the child so wishes. All children (male and female) should have the opportunity for further education and/or vocational training.

As far as abuse and subjugation of the women, it is like a domestic violence relationship. If they (as adults) choose to stay in that type of relationship, then it is their right to choose. You can encourage them, you can support them, but you have to let them choose if/when it is right for them to get out. And I really believe that some women thrive in that type of relationship. They seem to feel the need to be controlled, to not have to take responsibility for decisions. Some women may be drawn to that type of relationship because of the fact that they really don't have much contact with men, and have a strong "sisterhood."

So while I personally wouldn't choose a polygamous relationship, some people might.

I personally am a whatever floats your boat person as long as its LEGAL. In Tx, the state DOES recognize common law as a legal marriage. So by their own admission of "spiritual marriage" they are breaking Texas Bigamy laws. Where is the harm in that? Well if we allow people to pick and choose the laws they wish to obey without recourse the system breaks down. One person's level of tolerance or blind eye isnt another's. Our legal system is far from perfect but its the only one we have and everyperson should atleast attempt to adhere to it or live in a place where they can legally exist with that areas laws.

I always joke with my husband about Men, ya cant live with em, cant shoot em. But its our laws that keep society in check. That is NOT to say if you see something wrong just turn away. I am all for taking legal steps to try and change laws. Believe me, as someone who has lobbied the US Congress and the Maryland Senate on child daycare laws it may take time, but it DOES work. If the FDLS truly believe their arguement on plural marriage then they surely could have hired Attorney's and taken their cause to the courts with the millions they have. There are ways to change laws rather then break them.


JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

 

[golfmom]

Very interesting photos - thanks for the link.

Now - back to the "choice" question - did all of these women truly lose their right to decide who to marry or would some of these women tell you "I want and choose to marry whoever Jeffs tells me to."?

Did all these children lose their right to an education or did their parents believe they were choosing to educate them in a different way?

I hear you about the indoctrination and don't know if I am clearly expressing myself. Let's say my mainstream church pastor tells me over and over again that I will not go to heaven if I don't purple popsicles (or insert the sin of your choice here. If I believe the pastor and stop eating purple popsicles, would I be making a choice or would I have been brainwashed by a religious leader?

This all comes down to the cult/religion question. I know there are distinctions between what is a cult and what is a religion - I studied them in some depth in college. They were never particularly meaningful to me. All religions have cultish elements and all cults have religious elements.

When is one genuinely brainswashed as opposed to choosing to follow something that sounds good to them?

I think I understand better now what you're asking. I'm by no means an expert on this group, however, I've been following and reading up on the group since about '03. This is completely my take on what's been going on. I believe that the FLDS did get their start as a legitimate religious dispute between themselves and the LDS. Both sides claim they're "right", but I'll tell you that I think FLDS modeled themselves closer to what was the original founders ideals of the religion. The big dispute between the groups was the practice of polygamy. LDS rejected it in favor of statehood. FLDS refused.

Now, as to how we got to where we are today. It was a process, not a single event. Each successive generation became more cultish. Rulon had folks standing around at designated times waiting for the world to end and he and his followers lifted up to be in charge. If you weren't with the group, you were damned. So, by the end of his time, they were behaving in a pretty cultish manner, IMO. Enter in Warren. Warren ramped everything up to the next level. Sports were pretty much banned, schooling banned, all marriages to be arranged by him, no tv, no internet. Any man that threatened his leadership or wouldn't follow his orders were banned, wives and children confiscated and reassigned. He asked his followers to throw out children's books, to quit reading the bible or the D&C and rely solely on his teachings and prophecies.

Free will has been completely eliminated. Anyone who would stand up removed and damned.

Jeffs handpicked everyone for the Eldorado facility. Those who weren't selected are paying tithes hoping eventually to be worthy enough to enter "YFZ" fearing that when the end comes they may end up with the damned.

 

[mollymalone]

As I understand it, Warren Jeffs is being held in a jail cell in Mohave County, AZ, awaiting another trial. There's a hearing for Jeffs tomorrow. So, he hasn't been sent to a prison yet. I wonder if his ability to communicate will be curtailed once he's sent to prison?

He'll still receive visitors and mail and phone calls in prison. He'll be allowed a certain amount of the phone and there will be a limited list for visitors.. just like Scott P and every other inmate gets in prison. Even in the jail his mail and phone calls are monitored as are the visits.

 

[mollymalone]

I posted these in the links thread just now. There's a lot of money tied up in this compound.

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/ (main site page)

2005-2007
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/More-Pics.htm
I release all rights to the photos I have created on this site, and consider all public domain. Use as you wish. I will only publish photos I created and link to others that may be copyrighted, with the exception of the satellite shot.

2008
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/02-19-08.htm

Warren Jeff's house: http://web.sccn2.net/flds/images/IMG_0945.JPG
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/images/IMG_138.JPG

 

[Floh]

Trying to catch up. anyone with any news about 'deserted' compounds?

thank you for everyone's posts here AND in the useful links only thread.

 

[Leila]

http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/NEWS01/80423013

A motion to postpone a hearing for a new trial for FLDS leader Warren Jeffs has been denied.

The motion to postpone the hearing was filed by Jeffs attorney Richard Wright Tuesday afternoon in Fifth District Court.

Judge James L. Shumate denied the motion this morning.

Thanks for the update! The hearing in St. George is in regards to whether or not to grant Jeffs a new trial. Meanwhile, he's awaiting trial in Mojave County, AZ on two other charges, one involving the same girl, Elissa Wall, who testified against him in the September 2007 trial.

Elissa Wall has written a book, "Stolen Innocence: My Story of Growing Up in a Polygamous Sect, Becoming a Teenage Bride, and Triumphing over Warren Jeffs" has just been published this month.

 

[mollymalone]

I read an article that said oil was discovered on a neighbor's property and since the FLDS didn't obtain the mineral rights to their site, they will probably have no choice but to allow the drilling for oil under their property by "outsiders."

 

[mollymalone]

Thanks for the update! The hearing in St. George is in regards to whether or not to grant Jeffs a new trial. Meanwhile, he's awaiting trial in Mojave County, AZ on two other charges, one involving the same girl, Elissa Wall, who testified against him in the September 2007 trial.

Elissa Wall has written a book, "Stolen Innocence: My Story of Growing Up in a Polygamous Sect, Becoming a Teenage Bride, and Triumphing over Warren Jeffs" has just been published this month.

Weren't two charges dropped because witnesses have recanted or disappeared, refusing to testify?

 

[Leila]

I just located this online book: Colorado City Polygamists -- An Inside Look for the Outsider.

I'll be reading for a while.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NM...sig=-2FJrue65nDlCvX0NpnNIhNrTqo&hl=en#PPP1,M1

Thanks Golfmom! I've bookmarked it for reading later. I note that the author is Benjamin Bistline. He's the man who was interviewed for the publication we discussed yesterday. Here's a link to that publication:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/*advertiser censored*/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php