Was Burke Involved? # 4

[margarita25]

I am brand new to this forum so forgive me if this is currently being discussed in another thread.

My question is for the RDI/BDI believers.
If you believe Burke's voice can be heard saying "What did you find?" at the end of the 911 tape, what do you think it means? If Burke knew he injured/killed his sister, why would he be asking his parents "What did you find?" Find what? Wouldn't something like "What did you do?" or "where is she?" make more sense? Or is it possible he didn't saying "Find" but something else?

For the record I am not defending Burke. I just want everyone's opinions. I personally think that Burke and John's behavior is more suspicious then Patsy's. Patsy is the only one I've seen express emotion. Perhaps John did the cover up and Patsy only found out about it before making the call?

Welcome Duchess518

:welcome5:

 

[write]

I'm new but have done quite a bit of reading here. When this crime first happened, I wondered if perhaps there was a jealous sibling. After all, this little girl got a lot of attention. Sure enough, turned out there was an older brother. However, when it came out that he was only 9, I became doubtful that he could have done it. Another reason I thought it was a close family member was that PR and JR stuck together to protect the person. Patsy wrote the note--that's mostly as far as I got.

But that CBS program with the kid demonstrating the ability to do it, brought me full circle--along with Burke admitting on Dr Phil that he was up during the night while everyone was supposedly asleep.

Burke must have hit her (circumstances are vague so I won't even speculate) and he may have dragged her down to the basement. I don't know about the strangulation--whether he would have done that and why. It's possible that in his rage, he wanted her deader than dead. Or that he was starting to stage it so no one would know he'd hit her and it would look like an intruder.

Again, I don't know.

But I think that at some point he went to his parents and told them. Patsy either found JBR unconscious from the blow to the head or found her strangled in the basement. Probably she went and got John. They didn't call 911--why? Was it because Burke had already committed the strangulation and that would be so obviously purposeful and deviant?

I think PR and JR told Burke to go back to bed. John staged it or finished what Burke had started. Patsy wrote the note with some help from John. They told Burke that he must have had a terrible nightmare. What a bad dream--that he killed his sister! Now go back to sleep, you've had nightmares before, this will be okay. Burke wasn't so easily convinced so when he heard his parents in the kitchen making the 911 call, he hung around out of curiosity. "What DID you find?" He now knows something has happened and wants to know more.

They may have told him that YES, it wasn't a total nightmare, that he probably did hear something in the night. That's what caused his nightmare. That would have made sense to a 9 year old. That he DID hear "the intruder" and it woke him up enough so that when he went back to sleep he had a nightmare about it. In the morning he hears that JBR is missing. He is clueless though because they've convinced him he was dreaming. But they've told him that, indeed, there was commotion in the night. He is really wondering now.

John can't disguise his anger at Burke and says, "We're not talking to you." (We are talking to the police!) Burke goes back to his room in a state of confusion but not a state of guilt. All he knows is something happened during the night--an intruder?--and his sister is now missing. She could just be hiding or outside for all her knows--and that's what he says later, in all honesty. Later on, he's escorted to the White's home, still feeling innocent. He really doesn't think he knows what happened--he did have a bad dream that night, that's for sure, in his mind. The parents brainwash him some more later on so that he is 100% convinced that it was an intruder. He's 9 yrs old, he believes them. If he ever had any inclination that he did it, he could have repressed it so deeply that he actually has no memory of it today.

Today he KNOWS that there are people out there who speak of pineapple and such. So when he is interviewed, he knows that he'd better say that he doesn't know what a bowl of pineapple looks like. He knows he'd better act dumb when it comes to suggestions that he could have done it. Burke did it but I'm not 100% certain that he even knows he did it.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm new but have done quite a bit of reading here. When this crime first happened, I wondered if perhaps there was a jealous sibling. After all, this little girl got a lot of attention. Sure enough, turned out there was an older brother. However, when it came out that he was only 9, I became doubtful that he could have done it. Another reason I thought it was a close family member was that PR and JR stuck together to protect the person. Patsy wrote the note--that's mostly as far as I got.

But that CBS program with the kid demonstrating the ability to do it, brought me full circle--along with Burke admitting on Dr Phil that he was up during the night while everyone was supposedly asleep.

Burke must have hit her (circumstances are vague so I won't even speculate) and he may have dragged her down to the basement. I don't know about the strangulation--whether he would have done that and why. It's possible that in his rage, he wanted her deader than dead. Or that he was starting to stage it so no one would know he'd hit her and it would look like an intruder.

Again, I don't know.

But I think that at some point he went to his parents and told them. Patsy either found JBR unconscious from the blow to the head or found her strangled in the basement. Probably she went and got John. They didn't call 911--why? Was it because Burke had already committed the strangulation and that would be so obviously purposeful and deviant?

I think PR and JR told Burke to go back to bed. John staged it or finished what Burke had started. Patsy wrote the note with some help from John. They told Burke that he must have had a terrible nightmare. What a bad dream--that he killed his sister! Now go back to sleep, you've had nightmares before, this will be okay. Burke wasn't so easily convinced so when he heard his parents in the kitchen making the 911 call, he hung around out of curiosity. "What DID you find?" He now knows something has happened and wants to know more.

They may have told him that YES, it wasn't a total nightmare, that he probably did hear something in the night. That's what caused his nightmare. That would have made sense to a 9 year old. That he DID hear "the intruder" and it woke him up enough so that when he went back to sleep he had a nightmare about it. In the morning he hears that JBR is missing. He is clueless though because they've convinced him he was dreaming. But they've told him that, indeed, there was commotion in the night. He is really wondering now.

John can't disguise his anger at Burke and says, "We're not talking to you." (We are talking to the police!) Burke goes back to his room in a state of confusion but not a state of guilt. All he knows is something happened during the night--an intruder?--and his sister is now missing. She could just be hiding or outside for all her knows--and that's what he says later, in all honesty. Later on, he's escorted to the White's home, still feeling innocent. He really doesn't think he knows what happened--he did have a bad dream that night, that's for sure, in his mind. The parents brainwash him some more later on so that he is 100% convinced that it was an intruder. He's 9 yrs old, he believes them. If he ever had any inclination that he did it, he could have repressed it so deeply that he actually has no memory of it today.

Today he KNOWS that there are people out there who speak of pineapple and such. So when he is interviewed, he knows that he'd better say that he doesn't know what a bowl of pineapple looks like. He knows he'd better act dumb when it comes to suggestions that he could have done it. Burke did it but I'm not 100% certain that he even knows he did it.

write,
There is a lot of sense in what you suggest. Yet with a little thought, Burke Ramsey must know who killed JonBenet. So either he is shielding her killer or he did it himself. Its pretty simple, I'm a bit of a bore for telling people to think KISS, etc, yet I reckon it applies in this case since nearly everyone, including those who author books on the subject, theorize and comment on the staging, which has led a lot of people astray.

I liked the CBS Documentary a lot, including the thought that the White's have some dirt on the Ramsey's did you all see that bit? No camera's allowed, i.e. no confirmation of sources, etc.

The CBS production emphasized an accidental BDI, when I get round to it I'll post a non-accidental BDI, one based on the evidence and thoroughly counter-intuitive, personally I reckon the case is either BDI or PDI, but PDI seems almost passe in today's climate.

.

 

[Duchess518]

Welcome Duchess518

:welcome5:

Thank you Margarita!

 

[Annapurna]

two things with BDI theory that i am curious about.
1/. the ligature.
think a lot of people have the theory that because parts of the paint brush are evident in the basement it must have been devised at that moment..
but what if it wasnt?
every time i look at the 'garrote" i see a make shift handle for a play toy specifically a kite handle comes at me.
who's not to say this device wasnt made innocently in the days weeks leading up to christmas?
the fact PR was purchasing crafty items could have related to the kids more to the point BR inventing stuff, you know typical very normal boy behaviour.
the crime scene photos show us plenty of ready at hand make do strangling apperadices (apologies no spell check or autocaps)
so why go to the trouble?
unless said new very important newly made play toy was amongst all that clutter.

2/. cigars.
another thing that irks me is the ME not clarifying what 'ABRASIONS" on JBR actually means.
this is such a shame.
its curious to me that no matter what objects and ideas WB-ERS or specialist bring to the table those marks look extremely suspiciously like cigerette burns.
the FACT there were cigars found in the basement and BPD thought it serious enough to question the R'S about them makes me wonder why.
and if by any chance those were cigar burns....is a game changer....no matter who did it.

The term abrasion has a specific meaning in the medical field (Feel free to chime in kanzz):

In dermatology, an abrasion is a wound caused by superficial damage to the skin, no deeper than the epidermis. It is less severe than a laceration, and bleeding, if present, is minimal. A more traumatic abrasion that removes all layers of skin is called an avulsion. Abrasion injuries most commonly occur when exposed skin comes into moving contact with a rough surface, causing a grinding or rubbing away of the upper layers of the epidermis. (wiki)

I can't for the life of me find what the medical term for burn is. I know there is another word for it. (otg, kanzz, anyone know?) The point is that they would have been noted differently on the AR. This actually applies to the supposed stun gun marks as well. I agree that the wound on her face does look a lot like a cigarette burn. I still do not know nor do i have any guess as to what actually made it, but I suspect it was likely not a burn.

 

[Annapurna]

Well, these are lay people. BUT, this kid was breathing. It was probably cheyne-stokes or agonal after the head trauma (yeah, I'm an RN), but she had to be breathing prior to being strangled. So, yes, they would have been able to tell if she was dead or alive.

Which is why it seems unreasonable that JR &/or PR would have strangled her. They would have called likely 911. Why not, after all? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they would have just killed her (even though we know she would have died from the head trauma anyway). BDI.

I've often wondered if the cheyne-stokes or agonal breathing were what prompted someone to strangle her. Perhaps it was so frightening someone (say...a child) just wanted it to stop in any way possible. Kind of out there, but was a thought I've had.

I agree, they would have called 911 if there was still even a slim chance at saving their precious daughter.

 

[kanzz]

The term abrasion has a specific meaning in the medical field (Feel free to chime in kanzz): In dermatology, an abrasion is a wound caused by superficial damage to the skin, no deeper than the epidermis. It is less severe than a laceration, and bleeding, if present, is minimal. A more traumatic abrasion that removes all layers of skin is called an avulsion. Abrasion injuries most commonly occur when exposed skin comes into moving contact with a rough surface, causing a grinding or rubbing away of the upper layers of the epidermis. (wiki)I can't for the life of me find what the medical term for burn is. I know there is another word for it. (otg, kanzz, anyone know?) The point is that they would have been noted differently on the AR. This actually applies to the supposed stun gun marks as well. I agree that the wound on her face does look a lot like a cigarette burn. I still do not know nor do i have any guess as to what actually made it, but I suspect it was likely not a burn.

Right, Annapurna. Good job on clarifying the abrasion. The mark on JB's cheek was also described in the autopsy report as an abrasion. As far as the medical terminology for "burn", the only thing I know is "thermal injury". I'll look through some of my trauma nursing literature to see if I find anything else.

 

[Heymom]

I'm new but have done quite a bit of reading here. When this crime first happened, I wondered if perhaps there was a jealous sibling. After all, this little girl got a lot of attention. Sure enough, turned out there was an older brother. However, when it came out that he was only 9, I became doubtful that he could have done it. Another reason I thought it was a close family member was that PR and JR stuck together to protect the person. Patsy wrote the note--that's mostly as far as I got.

But that CBS program with the kid demonstrating the ability to do it, brought me full circle--along with Burke admitting on Dr Phil that he was up during the night while everyone was supposedly asleep.

Burke must have hit her (circumstances are vague so I won't even speculate) and he may have dragged her down to the basement. I don't know about the strangulation--whether he would have done that and why. It's possible that in his rage, he wanted her deader than dead. Or that he was starting to stage it so no one would know he'd hit her and it would look like an intruder.

Again, I don't know.

But I think that at some point he went to his parents and told them. Patsy either found JBR unconscious from the blow to the head or found her strangled in the basement. Probably she went and got John. They didn't call 911--why? Was it because Burke had already committed the strangulation and that would be so obviously purposeful and deviant?

I think PR and JR told Burke to go back to bed. John staged it or finished what Burke had started. Patsy wrote the note with some help from John. They told Burke that he must have had a terrible nightmare. What a bad dream--that he killed his sister! Now go back to sleep, you've had nightmares before, this will be okay. Burke wasn't so easily convinced so when he heard his parents in the kitchen making the 911 call, he hung around out of curiosity. "What DID you find?" He now knows something has happened and wants to know more.

They may have told him that YES, it wasn't a total nightmare, that he probably did hear something in the night. That's what caused his nightmare. That would have made sense to a 9 year old. That he DID hear "the intruder" and it woke him up enough so that when he went back to sleep he had a nightmare about it. In the morning he hears that JBR is missing. He is clueless though because they've convinced him he was dreaming. But they've told him that, indeed, there was commotion in the night. He is really wondering now.

John can't disguise his anger at Burke and says, "We're not talking to you." (We are talking to the police!) Burke goes back to his room in a state of confusion but not a state of guilt. All he knows is something happened during the night--an intruder?--and his sister is now missing. She could just be hiding or outside for all her knows--and that's what he says later, in all honesty. Later on, he's escorted to the White's home, still feeling innocent. He really doesn't think he knows what happened--he did have a bad dream that night, that's for sure, in his mind. The parents brainwash him some more later on so that he is 100% convinced that it was an intruder. He's 9 yrs old, he believes them. If he ever had any inclination that he did it, he could have repressed it so deeply that he actually has no memory of it today.

Today he KNOWS that there are people out there who speak of pineapple and such. So when he is interviewed, he knows that he'd better say that he doesn't know what a bowl of pineapple looks like. He knows he'd better act dumb when it comes to suggestions that he could have done it. Burke did it but I'm not 100% certain that he even knows he did it.

I think your scenario is possible, but not as likely as another one, wherein Burke knows he did it and is not unhappy about it. Did you watch the Dr. Phil interview where he made quite negative comments about his sister, never once saying how horrible it was? He called her pageant performance "flaunting it" and make a small gesture that was mocking in nature. Then, when Dr. Phil asked about her funeral, he remembered that "one of her eyes was kinda droopy, that was weird." He also remembered their relationship as being normal, and gave an example of fighting over which one of them got to push the elevator buttons. Really? Do you mean to tell me that you have no positive memories you could bring up, for national television?

I believe that he did it, he hit her hard, he then poked her with a train track section to see if she would get up, he then did the sexual things, and then he choked her with the cord. I think he knows he did it and has no regrets, not to this day.

I hope one day that JonBenet gets justice, as she deserves.

 

[Heymom]

I've often wondered if the cheyne-stokes or agonal breathing were what prompted someone to strangle her. Perhaps it was so frightening someone (say...a child) just wanted it to stop in any way possible. Kind of out there, but was a thought I've had.

I agree, they would have called 911 if there was still even a slim chance at saving their precious daughter.

I don't think a child like Burke would have recognized the Cheyne-Stokes breathing as being a sign of impending death. You have to know what's happening in order to be frightened about it, no? Maybe he thought JonBenet was doing it on purpose. We don't know if she even did have that response, or if she was just quietly slipping away.

 

[Annapurna]

Right, Annapurna. Good job on clarifying the abrasion. The mark on JB's cheek was also described in the autopsy report as an abrasion. As far as the medical terminology for "burn", the only thing I know is "thermal injury". I'll look through some of my trauma nursing literature to see if I find anything else.

Maybe I'm just imagining it then. I thought I remembered otg posting about this topic and having a term that a ME would be more likely to use than "burn". It's not terribly important. Thanks!

 

[kanzz]

Maybe I'm just imagining it then. I thought I remembered otg posting about this topic and having a term that a ME would be more likely to use than "burn". It's not terribly important. Thanks!

My wheels are turning. ::shrug:: There is the word "cauterized", but that wouldn't really apply here; because that word actually only applies to the medical procedure of applying heat to seal off a bleeder in a wound (either traumatic or surgical).

Oh, and although I said "thermal injury" before.. "thermal insult" is also used. But actually, when I went back through my trauma slides, it only mentions thermal as a sub of Burns. Here is a copy/paste of that info:
* Burn classifications include:
- Thermal: Hot object, steam, smoke, or flash
- Chemical: Alkalis worse than acids
- Electrical: AC or DC
- Radiation: Sunburn or cancer radiation treatments

 

[otg]

The term abrasion has a specific meaning in the medical field (Feel free to chime in kanzz):


In dermatology, an abrasion is a wound caused by superficial damage to the skin, no deeper than the epidermis. It is less severe than a laceration, and bleeding, if present, is minimal. A more traumatic abrasion that removes all layers of skin is called an avulsion. Abrasion injuries most commonly occur when exposed skin comes into moving contact with a rough surface, causing a grinding or rubbing away of the upper layers of the epidermis. (wiki)

I can't for the life of me find what the medical term for burn is. I know there is another word for it. (otg, kanzz, anyone know?) The point is that they would have been noted differently on the AR. This actually applies to the supposed stun gun marks as well. I agree that the wound on her face does look a lot like a cigarette burn. I still do not know nor do i have any guess as to what actually made it, but I suspect it was likely not a burn.

You're absolutely correct about the abrasion. This is where many are confused over what the ME describes that he sees and what we assume is the cause. When Meyer describes an "abrasion," he's simply saying there is damage to the top layer of skin (the epidermis) -- not how it happened.

As for a medical term for a burn... I don't know. A medical person though will usually classify it as a first, second, or third degree burn.

 

[ghostrighter]

How soon after a severe head injury does the brain swell? Is it possible JBRs head was so swollen that whoever found her would come to the conclusion JBR would likely be brain-dead?

 

[kanzz]

How soon after a severe head injury does the brain swell? Is it possible JBRs head was so swollen that whoever found her would come to the conclusion JBR would likely be brain-dead?

It varies. But we can use the AR as a guideline. He reports that there was probably 45 - 90 minutes between the head injury and strangulation, with the brain swelling in that time. With the skull fracture, the swelling probably started fairly soon.

Her head would not have been swollen. We have to keep in mind that not even the coroner was aware of the skull fracture until he got to that part of the autopsy. The only thing that would have been obvious prior to the strangulation would have been that she was unconscious and probably having some sort of unusual breathing pattern.

As to "whoever found her" - that depends upon who you think strangled her, I guess. I think the same person who hit her on the head is the person who strangled her. So, in that scenario - "whoever found her", found her dead. That's my opinion.

Otherwise, why wouldn't someone have called 911?

 

[debbiegarcia36]

It varies. But we can use the AR as a guideline. He reports that there was probably 45 - 90 minutes between the head injury and strangulation, with the brain swelling in that time. With the skull fracture, the swelling probably started fairly soon.

Her head would not have been swollen. We have to keep in mind that not even the coroner was aware of the skull fracture until he got to that part of the autopsy. The only thing that would have been obvious prior to the strangulation would have been that she was unconscious and probably having some sort of unusual breathing pattern.

As to "whoever found her" - that depends upon who you think strangled her, I guess. I think the same person who hit her on the head is the person who strangled her. So, in that scenario - "whoever found her", found her dead. That's my opinion.

Otherwise, why wouldn't someone have called 911?

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why there was a 45 - 90 minute delay between the head injury and strangulation, say if BDI. What was he doing during that time? Any speculations?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[fedfan4life]

Poking her with train tracks and using the paintbrush in an inappropriate way.

 

[kanzz]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why there was a 45 - 90 minute delay between the head injury and strangulation, say if BDI. What was he doing during that time? Any speculations?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

My thoughts - this was the time of the pokes with the train tracks and the molestation. He probably also moved her then to the spot outside of the WR.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

 

[debbiegarcia36]

My thoughts - this was the time of the pokes with the train tracks and the molestation. He probably also moved her then to the spot outside of the WR.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

Yikes. And that's probably how she got the abrasions I guess. It's hard to imagine such slow deliberate deviance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[TeaTime]

I can't even go to the deviant mind theory about BR. I don't see him as a psycho deviant who lusted after his little sister. Nope. Won't go there.

 

[otg]

The 45 to 120 minute interval was one person's opinion who was consulted after the brain had been sliced up and fixed in formalin (preserved). Her (Dr, Lucy Rorke-Adams) report has never been made public and was only reported by Kolar. When asked about her estimate, Kolar hedged saying that the interval was based on her opinion of the brain injuries as well as the digestion time of the pineapple. Other "experts" have suggested lesser intervals and even that the order of injuries was switched. The Medical Examiner (Dr. Meyer) made no estimate of the interval between the two insults.

I've said this before, and I'll repeat it now... I don't think anyone should get too fixed on this time interval. It's not definite and there are reasons it could be wrong.