Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Meara]

Nice post.

Well JR has been known to give talks in church about forgiveness. (That’s quite interesting in light of his professed hatred of the BPD for persecuting his family and allowing the real killer to escape. Sarcasm.)

But what I found most revealing about JR’s role within the context of this horrendous event was his question ‘why.’ The issue ‘why’ was muttered by JR the evening of the 26th. Again on the CNN interview he phrased the same thought: ‘For our grief to resolve itself we now have to find out why this happened.’ His question points to the idea that he did not grasp the motivation and actions of the family member responsible, and it really appeared he did not have a clue there was any ‘trouble in River City.’

It would have taken courage, seemingly far beyond their personal strength, to allow BR to receive the therapy he needed after JB’s death. (A child doesn't know how much he needs therapy or medicine.) But PR and JR put their own needs above the needs of BR. It’s doubtful a social services or judicial review would have ordered containment in an institute for life. It’s Colorado after all, and the Rs had connections. But undoubtedly the authorities would have ordered more intensive therapy than he received in Atlanta (a psychiatrist visit once every 3 weeks). Imo, the Rs’ egos and reputation superseded BR’s needs.

And then look at what else they taught him: Sue anyone for imagined harm, ruin careers, throw friends under the bus, all because of their need to run from their responsibility in this.They obviously protected themselves and BR at a cost greater than they’d planned. But for their daughter in the basement, heartbreakingly, there hadn't been much protection at all.

Hi qft. Sorry I didn't see your comment sooner. It's very moving.

JR deserves your sarcasm. Forgiving the killer aggrandizes his ego and wins him so many halo points. What glory is there in forgiving the BPD? Besides, blaming them over and over distracts from the fact that he's done exactly zero to bring the "real" killer to justice. Keep beatin' that horse, John.
:deadhorse:
He may be dead but he's the only one ya got.

I think you're right that neither JB nor BR got the help they needed because their parents didn't want to see, didn't want to know. Denial of reality is the hallmark of the disordered mind.

 

[Meara]

I did not bring up JAR's quote to start a religious discussion. I agree with everyone's take on the subject. My point was it seems the Ramsey's have moved beyond the capture of the criminal and rather quickly. I don't know all the behind the scenes activities over the years, but they have spent most of their money and efforts trying to prove they didn't do it rather than trying to capture the intruder. They have hired media relations firms, lawyers and investigators but it seems their search for the killer is much like OJ's search - all talk. I would have had an armed guard around my surviving child until he was 21 yet they let him drive off with friends while their daughter was still "missing", when for all they knew, the small foreign faction was following the white's home. Of course they knew he was perfectly safe. Maybe the Whites were in more danger. The ramsey's know what happened, and they have made peace with it. Now let us in on it and quit yanking our chains JR.

Thank you!!

I didn't mean to further a purely religious discussion. My point was that the process of forgiveness can often be very difficult, painful and slow, requiring much self-searching and reflection. This would imply some spiritual depth and strength, and it's ridiculous that the Rams claimed to have acquired it overnight, given the worldly life they led - eye of the needle and all that. They treated forgiveness like one more personal accomplishment, as though they could include it on the next Christmas card with Burke's grades and John's yacht. And the supreme irony - they were so out of their depth, they didn't realize the claim was self-negating and obvious to anyone who knew better. It was more fun to write this as satire, but then sarcasm doesn't always carry well online.

 

[Ambitioned]

Quite the Freudian slip.

John also said if an intruder fed JB pineapple she'd have screamed bloody murder. They seemed to love that phrase

 

[kanzz]

akh, I totally agree with you. As you point out, if BR was only responsible for the head wound, then it doesn't make sense to me that the parents would cover this up with such an elaborate "kidnapping by a crazed sicko gone wrong" scheme. It is much more plausible that they would have immediately called 911. And remember, the head wound wasn't immediately apparent to anyone -- even the coroner didn't know about it until the autopsy was conducted and they found the horrible skull fracture. So unless the parents actually witnessed BR hitting JBR over the head, they wouldn't even know this wound was there.

What makes more sense to me is exactly what akh theorizes -- I think BR not only hit her over the head, but also strangled her. As akh points out, this would remove any option that the parents could claim an accident had occurred. I also agree with akh on the ransom note -- I think both parents thought JBR's body would be found much sooner by the police. I think PR peering through her fingers at officer French is indicative of that as well -- I think she was just waiting for him to "hurry up and go to the basement and find her already!!" in her mind. I also think BR is the one who caused the vaginal injury to JBR that night. We know that injury caused some bleeding, so this would have taken place prior to the strangulation (when her heart stopped beating).

So I think the chain of events was:

1. During an argument/squabble, BR grabs JBR's shirt collar, twists it in an attempt to gain control of her as she is running away (which caused some of the neck injuries), and then grabs the flashlight and bashes her in the head.


2. The head blow caused JBR to fall unconscious to the floor immediately.


3. BR is now in "oh *****" mode -- realizing that he has seriously injured his sister. He wants to hide what he did -- but he's also a kid, so he's not going to be terribly sophisticated in this effort. It probably never occurred to him to just tell parents that JBR slipped and fell or some other lie. So he drags her downstairs (pulling by her arms over her head) and into the basement. This is how JBR gets the shoulder bruising and leg injuries.


4. We know that between 45 minutes to 2 hours passes between the head blow and the strangulation. Dragging JBR's body downstairs and into the basement would take some time and some effort for nearly 10-year old BR. Now that he's got her in the basement, he wants to see if he can revive her somehow. So he pokes her hard with the train tracks several times to try to wake her up. This is the cause of those injuries to the body.


5. When poking her doesn’t work, he becomes even more aggressive – either digitally penetrating her or using some other object. I believe BR was a deeply, DEEPLY disturbed adolescent already (scatological behaviors, deep-seated rage/jealousy) and I also believe it likely that he had already “experimented” a bit with this sexually abusive behavior toward JBR in the preceding months, but not to this extent.

6. Either in a final act of rage or perhaps because he detected *some* signs of life still (death rattle breathing or something similar), he decides he must finish her off or she will “tell.” So he fashions the garrote and strangles her. (The deeply imbedded cord in JBR’s neck suggests such rage to me – I don’t believe either JR or PR would have been capable of doing this to their daughter – not even to save BR).

7. At this point I think BR tries to creep back upstairs and go to bed but PR hears a noise (she’s still awake packing upstairs) and goes to check on the kids, only to find JBR gone. Or, maybe BR decides to tell PR a lie that he “thought he heard something,” hoping that his mom will believe a bad guy broke into the house and did this to JBR. But however it played out, I think *this* is when PR became frantic and was rushing about the house “acting psycho” saying “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” (Fellow Websleuther JohnJay originally came up with this explanation, and I think he’s right about this.)

8. So by the time PR and JR discover JBR in the basement, she has been strangled, obviously murdered, is already dead, and there’s *no way* to pass this off as an accident. And they know who did it. And they have to cover it up. So now the staging begins. (Cleaning the body, wiping off fingerprints, writing the ransom note, turning JBR over on her back to place the tape and the too-loose wrist ties, etc.)

9. I don’t think removing the body was ever even considered by either JR or PR. I think they wanted the cops to find the body early in the morning, conclude it was kidnapping gone wrong, and then the family could get on with their grief and dealing privately with BR. But when the cops DIDN’T find her right away, and the hours ticked away, that gave JR more and more time to think about all the things they might have missed. All the ways that the staging might have left “clues” behind. So when he has the chance to “search the house from top to bottom,” he jumps at it – making sure Fleet is with him when the body is “discovererd,” but also making sure to contaminate evidence by removing the tape, removing the wrist tie, touching/moving the body, and laying the body on the floor.

That scenario is what makes sense to me.. except maybe #8. I'm not convinced JR knew anything about this incident until he started piecing it together himself after he got up that morning. He probably first suspected something when he saw the RN. He knew BR was a disturbed kid. He was distancing himself from Patsy while people were there. Then I think he might have actually found the body at 11:00 (or shortly before), as he told MR, but didn't know what to do and didn't want to believe it. This was during the time - what was it? 1hr and 20mins? - he was out of sight.. maybe pulling his thoughts together, or maybe even in that WR with her, grieving. Later, Arndt asked him to search, so he did.

I could go either way on #7. BR may or may not have still been up when PR came back downstairs. PR might have been the one who screamed, or it could have been BR, if she came upon the scene and he was still down there. I don't know if she would have freaked at not finding JB in her room, because I suspect she might have allowed them to get up to eat and play while she finished packing. Or, BR might have just gone to bed to hide after he did the deed; and PR might have found the scene, tended to it (the staging in the WR and the undoing), written the note, then called out for John.

Just sharing my thoughts.

 

[kanzz]

I just want to say...I am so intrigued with the input of everyone on this site. But please get rid of this notion that PR and JR "thought she was dead after BR hit her over the head-so they staged the cover up". I have been in a medical field for 25 years, and been with hundreds of people at or after their time of death. You can tell if someone is dead!! For God's sake-especially if it was your child!!! You would check for a pulse all over their body---look and feel for breathing-look at their skin color!!!!!
even f I were NOT a medically trained professional-I would certainly assess for the normal functions of life!!! Please get rid of this notion that they thought she was dead-I have tried to hold my tongue on this for so long, but it is simply not realistic.

Well, these are lay people. BUT, this kid was breathing. It was probably cheyne-stokes or agonal after the head trauma (yeah, I'm an RN), but she had to be breathing prior to being strangled. So, yes, they would have been able to tell if she was dead or alive.

Which is why it seems unreasonable that JR &/or PR would have strangled her. They would have called likely 911. Why not, after all? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they would have just killed her (even though we know she would have died from the head trauma anyway). BDI.

 

[k-mac]

two things with BDI theory that i am curious about.
1/. the ligature.
think a lot of people have the theory that because parts of the paint brush are evident in the basement it must have been devised at that moment..
but what if it wasnt?
every time i look at the 'garrote" i see a make shift handle for a play toy specifically a kite handle comes at me.
who's not to say this device wasnt made innocently in the days weeks leading up to christmas?
the fact PR was purchasing crafty items could have related to the kids more to the point BR inventing stuff, you know typical very normal boy behaviour.
the crime scene photos show us plenty of ready at hand make do strangling apperadices (apologies no spell check or autocaps)
so why go to the trouble?
unless said new very important newly made play toy was amongst all that clutter.

2/. cigars.
another thing that irks me is the ME not clarifying what 'ABRASIONS" on JBR actually means.
this is such a shame.
its curious to me that no matter what objects and ideas WB-ERS or specialist bring to the table those marks look extremely suspiciously like cigerette burns.
the FACT there were cigars found in the basement and BPD thought it serious enough to question the R'S about them makes me wonder why.
and if by any chance those were cigar burns....is a game changer....no matter who did it.

 

[k-mac]

lets take away that very grown up word garrote and replace it with boy scout curriculum.
an example of a kids learning board

 

[wannagonorth]

Well, these are lay people. BUT, this kid was breathing. It was probably cheyne-stokes or agonal after the head trauma (yeah, I'm an RN), but she had to be breathing prior to being strangled. So, yes, they would have been able to tell if she was dead or alive.

Which is why it seems unreasonable that JR &/or PR would have strangled her. They would have called likely 911. Why not, after all? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they would have just killed her (even though we know she would have died from the head trauma anyway). BDI.

The fact that the head wound was not open and bleeding makes that case even stronger. They didn't know she'd been hit on the head (unless Burke told them). Even if they did know, they could have explained that away as an accidental fall. Lots of "foot of the stairs" murders have been explained away that way. Sometimes the only giveaway is blood spatter too high up or far away from the "fall", and we know there was no blood here. All they could tell was that their little daughter was unconscious for some unknown reason. Yes, they would have called 911 for sure. No, they would not have strangled her, sexually abused her, taped her mouth, and tied her hands. That theory just doesn't make sense.

 

[carolinea]

I just want to say...I am so intrigued with the input of everyone on this site. But please get rid of this notion that PR and JR "thought she was dead after BR hit her over the head-so they staged the cover up". I have been in a medical field for 25 years, and been with hundreds of people at or after their time of death. You can tell if someone is dead!! For God's sake-especially if it was your child!!! You would check for a pulse all over their body---look and feel for breathing-look at their skin color!!!!!
even f I were NOT a medically trained professional-I would certainly assess for the normal functions of life!!! Please get rid of this notion that they thought she was dead-I have tried to hold my tongue on this for so long, but it is simply not realistic.

Well...I think it's possible that someone in shock and upset at finding their child like JBR could miss a very faint pulse.

Personal anecdote - when my own grandmother died, I was so upset that I couldn't tell if she was alive or not. I kept thinking I felt a pulse. The human mind can do really weird things when faced with a traumatic situation.

ETA: I don't believe that was part of the staging, though. I believe that BR did that part of it too.

 

[Duchess518]

I am brand new to this forum so forgive me if this is currently being discussed in another thread.

My question is for the RDI/BDI believers.
If you believe Burke's voice can be heard saying "What did you find?" at the end of the 911 tape, what do you think it means? If Burke knew he injured/killed his sister, why would he be asking his parents "What did you find?" Find what? Wouldn't something like "What did you do?" or "where is she?" make more sense? Or is it possible he didn't saying "Find" but something else?

For the record I am not defending Burke. I just want everyone's opinions. I personally think that Burke and John's behavior is more suspicious then Patsy's. Patsy is the only one I've seen express emotion. Perhaps John did the cover up and Patsy only found out about it before making the call?

 

[Duchess518]

I cannot imagine staging my child's death. Cannot do it. But let's remember a few things.

The Ramsey's (to my knowledge) had no medical training. Couple that with the shock of finding your child hurt and knowing your other child caused it. Would they know HOW to check for a pulse? Breathing could have been very faint at that point (she was considered to be brain dead with that head blow). Shock can make people do alot of crazy things, plus fear of what would happen to your other child.

It's unimaginable to think about. But remember every day somewhere in the world a parent kills their child. Also everyday parent's protect and lie for their children. Sadly I don't think we can ever comprehend what goes through their minds.

 

[johnjay]

I am brand new to this forum so forgive me if this is currently being discussed in another thread.

My question is for the RDI/BDI believers.
If you believe Burke's voice can be heard saying "What did you find?" at the end of the 911 tape, what do you think it means? If Burke knew he injured/killed his sister, why would he be asking his parents "What did you find?" Find what? Wouldn't something like "What did you do?" or "where is she?" make more sense? Or is it possible he didn't saying "Find" but something else?

For the record I am not defending Burke. I just want everyone's opinions. I personally think that Burke and John's behavior is more suspicious then Patsy's. Patsy is the only one I've seen express emotion. Perhaps John did the cover up and Patsy only found out about it before making the call?

I'm thinking the "what did you find?" is referring to the ransom note, which he didn't know about.

 

[kanzz]

I am brand new to this forum so forgive me if this is currently being discussed in another thread.

My question is for the RDI/BDI believers.
If you believe Burke's voice can be heard saying "What did you find?" at the end of the 911 tape, what do you think it means? If Burke knew he injured/killed his sister, why would he be asking his parents "What did you find?" Find what? Wouldn't something like "What did you do?" or "where is she?" make more sense? Or is it possible he didn't saying "Find" but something else?

For the record I am not defending Burke. I just want everyone's opinions. I personally think that Burke and John's behavior is more suspicious then Patsy's. Patsy is the only one I've seen express emotion. Perhaps John did the cover up and Patsy only found out about it before making the call?

There is a thread about that statement ("What did you find?"). I'm very interested in it, too.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?226008-quot-What-did-you-find-quot/page2

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I'm thinking the "what did you find?" is referring to the ransom note, which he didn't know about.

I agree. He said that right after hearing Patsy on the 911 call talk about finding aransome note.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[kanzz]

Well...I think it's possible that someone in shock and upset at finding their child like JBR could miss a very faint pulse.

Personal anecdote - when my own grandmother died, I was so upset that I couldn't tell if she was alive or not. I kept thinking I felt a pulse. The human mind can do really weird things when faced with a traumatic situation.

ETA: I don't believe that was part of the staging, though. I believe that BR did that part of it too.

I get what you're saying about your granddaughter. That is true about a pulse, and sometimes the heart will continue to beat, slowly &/or erratically for a while. It is easier to detect true life than it is to detect true death. But, the fact still remains - JBR was still breathing.

 

[johnjay]

two things with BDI theory that i am curious about.
1/. the ligature.
think a lot of people have the theory that because parts of the paint brush are evident in the basement it must have been devised at that moment..
but what if it wasnt?
every time i look at the 'garrote" i see a make shift handle for a play toy specifically a kite handle comes at me.
who's not to say this device wasnt made innocently in the days weeks leading up to christmas?

It doesn't seem big enough for a kite handle to me- the stick was only 4.5" long. It would be hard to reel in a kite on such a small stick - and of course she wasn't strangled by kite string. But I agree that it very well have been made ahead of time for some other purpose.

the fact PR was purchasing crafty items could have related to the kids more to the point BR inventing stuff, you know typical very normal boy behaviour.
the crime scene photos show us plenty of ready at hand make do strangling apperadices (apologies no spell check or autocaps)
so why go to the trouble?
unless said new very important newly made play toy was amongst all that clutter.

2/. cigars.
another thing that irks me is the ME not clarifying what 'ABRASIONS" on JBR actually means.
this is such a shame.
its curious to me that no matter what objects and ideas WB-ERS or specialist bring to the table those marks look extremely suspiciously like cigerette burns.
the FACT there were cigars found in the basement and BPD thought it serious enough to question the R'S about them makes me wonder why.
and if by any chance those were cigar burns....is a game changer....no matter who did it.

 

[BBB167893]

The fact that the head wound was not open and bleeding makes that case even stronger. They didn't know she'd been hit on the head (unless Burke told them). Even if they did know, they could have explained that away as an accidental fall. Lots of "foot of the stairs" murders have been explained away that way. Sometimes the only giveaway is blood spatter too high up or far away from the "fall", and we know there was no blood here. All they could tell was that their little daughter was unconscious for some unknown reason. Yes, they would have called 911 for sure. No, they would not have strangled her, sexually abused her, taped her mouth, and tied her hands. That theory just doesn't make sense.

It does make sense to me, wannagonorth. The condition of JonBenet's vagina severely limited their options. I can see how the thought procession would go.

Incidentally, it's pretty hard not to know someone's been hit on the head when you're the one who hit them.

 

[BBB167893]

I cannot imagine staging my child's death. Cannot do it. But let's remember a few things.

The Ramsey's (to my knowledge) had no medical training. Couple that with the shock of finding your child hurt and knowing your other child caused it. Would they know HOW to check for a pulse? Breathing could have been very faint at that point (she was considered to be brain dead with that head blow). Shock can make people do alot of crazy things, plus fear of what would happen to your other child.

Yes, that's precisely what I was trying to say.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm thinking the "what did you find?" is referring to the ransom note, which he didn't know about.

Hey, that's an idea! He wouldn't have known about that, would he?

 

[Mandala]

That is all kinds of weird!!


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Totally weird. I would love to know the story behind this.