Was Burke Involved? # 4

[PositiveLight]

I have doubts that P would put on JB those old white boys shorts for staging.
JBR was a child beauty queen and the shorts even had that boys thing in the front. The whole world might see her in those in the morning when the police came and photos taken. Don't think she put them on her or even handled them to J. That was how she was found by parents imo.
This makes me think whether size 12 panties are B's too. Jenny's panties thing seemed like a lie to me from the getgo.
I would like to search both JB and B's wardrobe and drawers at the time .

I mentioned the same thing a little while ago about the panties. I wonder if BR also did some cross dressing. That would be something the Ramsey's wouldn't be able to tolerate people knowing. I didn't buy them being a gift either. JMOO but it is something to chew on. Remember when Patsy's sister went to the house to fetch the funeral clothes? (Which I think is ludicrous btw) they are rich and can afford new clothes for the funeral. I wonder if she was sent to remove Burkes extra clothes. It is a common thing for kids to cross dress. There are many different reasons they do it too.
Here's a link to explain it some. A lot of the reasons ring true for Burke too.

http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=122&id=1740

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[debbiegarcia36]

If she urinated near the wine cellar, why are these stains there? She may have been staged long before she was strangled.

My thoughts exactly. Or at least her underwear was changed before the strangulation but not the long John's (thermal underwear). Seems like she was placed in the wine cellar after she was killed. Wine cellar is colder too to help slow down decomposition.

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[icedtea4me]

I have never been a BDI either and this interview with DP is a disaster for him. Now I don't know what to think. I have been a strong PDI for decades. I pointed this out pages ago regarding BR being downstairs after everyone went to bed. In John Douglas's book, The Cases That Haunt Us, Douglas says JR and BR did not go to bed right away because BR insisted on staying up to put a toy together. So is this new story an intentional revision, or faulty memory, or did BR go down even later than JR knew. Douglas, who I have always respected, except in this case, was part of Team Ramsey. His book is based on what they told him. Did BR just forget his father stayed up with him? So looking back, when does JR say they all went to bed? The timeline is narrowing. The flashlight explanation is ridiculous to me. Who walks around their house with one when they have power except to look in poorly lit storage areas perhaps? Or to go outside maybe? I think the flashlight being out is something everyone in the household would understand. Why are they so obtuse about it? One of the 3 who did not die that night is responsible and the 2 still living know what happened. To continue to suggest there is another person, and intruder, is insulting. DP should have said it just that way, but he was not doing this to enlighten but to continue the Ramsey ruse and drive his ratings.

The flashlight is phallic shaped.

Just sayin'.

 

[UKGuy]

The volume on BDI is very loud right now, but I don't completely like the sound. (I'm not BDI) Kolar's book and theory are great. I was thrilled with the CBS special because we were finally getting to see evidence that wasn't so blatantly dismissive of RDI. And the BDI theory is plausible. There's a lot of logic to it.

There are, however, psychological issues that no one has really dived into here that may explain Burke's behavior. I'm not talking about the Dr Phil interview, but his childhood behavior.

The Dr Phil interview was a trainwreck. Good Morning America also comment on it http://abcnews.go.com/US/da-opens-cleared-ramsey-family-jonbenets-murder/story?id=43106426. GMA was only parroting what everyone here on WS was saying for a long time. Nevertheless, I saw Burke as being scared to death during the DP interview. His smile and his nervousness were a defense. And no, I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent. I also believe he was being deceptive during the interview about some things.

One of the things that bothers me was the introduction of the flashlight. John and Patsy denied knowing anything about it. Now Burke brought it into the game (Burke actually didn't say the words on camera but Dr Phil did). Why? To mix metaphors here, I think he brought it into the game to take if off the table. He put the flashlight into John's hands that night. John and Patsy had nothing to do with the flashlight and there it is. This was 20 years later. I can't help to think that this wasn't done by accident. So what might come out to put the flashlight into John's hands? Why the foreshadowing? And then why put Burke onto the 1st floor at the same time his sister was being murdered? He's covering. I can't help but think he jumped into the path of the bullet because he's wearing a vest.

Yes, I am a crazy conspiracy theorist. I hang out here and obsess about a 20 year old murder mystery.

All my opinion, of course.

BoldBear,

Now Burke brought it into the game (Burke actually didn't say the words on camera but Dr Phil did). Why?

Because that's what the narrative is to be, its an intended defense against BDI. Dr Phil has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with advancing the Ramsey agenda.

As you suggest JR might be lining up to take a bullet for BR, that's why Dr Phil put the flashlight in JR's hands, i.e. Your father said he used the flashlight to put you to bed, note BR was non-committal in reply!

So as usual JR changes the story, e.g. broken window, suitcase, chair in front of door, etc. Now he says that flashlight that I could not recognize, well I used that up in BR's room.

So CBS are saying the flashlight was used to inflict blunt force on JonBenet and JR is saying I used that flashlight late that night.

What they are doing is smoothing away any upcoming problems, by admitting stuff now.

JR and LW can change the story, deny evidence, invent false facts, precisely because they are not in a court of law.

I think we can convert you from conspiracy to BDI, the case just gets stranger every year, ha ha.

.

 

[UKGuy]

icedtea4me tries to keep some of the discussion grounded when it veers into some unconventional areas. I also get a 'devil's advocate' vibe from some of their posts. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Some of those old FFJ discussions are great. if people have no problem with reading old discussions they cant respond to, I highly recommend digging into their old threads, especially the stuff around 2006. I have no idea why the site is closed to registration. I've seen the handful of people still there complain a bit about the site's low activity but obviously it cant increase if they wont allow anyone to join.


I'm one of them. Most of them seem to be fairly quiet and have thrown it in neutral and probably waiting for the storm to pass.










Jesus. Creepy indeed. It's also very sad. Is that a small tear? I assume if so that it was used for testing.

Me too.

Dear lord. They both have huge stains. Neither are the original panties she was supposedly first wearing that night. God only knows what that pair looked like if they felt the need to dispose of those yet allow these to be found.

While not an exact match obviously, both stains appear to be similar....start on the top right and drift downwards. On the panties, the stains appear to be on the lower backside as well. I agree with Olivia...these have to be what she was really wearing.

singularity,
The minute I saw the long johns/thermals whatever. I knew right away that neither JR or PR dressed JonBenet in them. I could maybe accept PR redressing JonBenet in the size-12's, but the long johns also, absolutely no way!

Obviously I don't know as fact, but those look like BR's long johns, they certainly are not JonBenet's. PR took a bullet when she said I dressed JonBenet in a clean pair of long johns. This explains PR's story about the size-12's being in JonBenet's underwear drawer, she was lying for BR.

I'm revising my BDI theory to include, as per Kolar, that BR staged JonBenet after assaulting her. The parents might be amateur criminals but I think they could have done a better job that what has now been revealed.

PDI, and JDI are dead in the water, no way would either parent redress JonBenet in male pants, not with a complete wardrobe of pageant clothing available in her bedroom, never mind her normal day to day clothing.

JonBenet patently released the urine after being killed, probably as she was being asphyxiated, that's also likely why a blanket was used, can you imagine the smell, never mind the sight?

ETA. Provisionally PR or JR found JonBenet redressed and staged in urine-soaked long johns and size-12's. Someone wiped JonBenet down at this point, possibly JR and PR applied the ligature, possibly inserting either the paintbrush or a finger to fake an assault, then she was wrapped in the blanket and hidden away.

It's possible neither JR or PR knew that JonBenet might still be alive?

.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, adding everything up does look bad for BR. But there is some information in PMPT which provides some clarification about BR and DS and the discussion they had.

DS and BR learned about the strangulation at a morning seminar, I believe.

The electronic media had carried the story the evening of the 27th, which included that JB had been strangled. Early in the case, Dec. 27, the principal at High Peaks felt that because of the fears of the children and hysteria of the parents, it would be good to have a meeting to talk about the death of JB. Some parents and older kids did know about her strangulation from TV reports. The principal arranged for a therapist(s) to make a presentation to the kids and discuss the facts of the case which were known. It was held on the morning of the 28th. In FF Kolar mentions the fact of strangulation was released in the newspapers on Dec. 28. I suspect this strangulation fact was given to the kids and parents that morning and discussed by DS and BR that afternoon.

The school psychologist told us he would tell the kids the facts that were known, but he assured us he wouldn’t go near the subject of whether JonBenét was sexually assaulted. . . .On Saturday morning, December 28, seventy parents and children showed up at High Peaks Elementary School. The administrator had arranged for therapists to come in to talk to the kids and their parents. PMPT

Then the strangulation puzzle and BR’s knowledge are further studied by Kolar and he flags this as something which is not understood.

Kolar, FF: As I reviewed the video time and again, I found it noteworthy that Burke never once mentioned the fact that he knew that JonBenét had been strangled during this conversation with Dr. Bernhard. As noted, Burke’s interview with Dr. Bernhard took place a little more than a week and a half after JonBenét’s murder on January 8, 1997. The fact that JonBenét had been strangled was common knowledge in Boulder by that juncture. . . Why would Burke tell Dr. Bernhard that he knew what had happened to JonBenét and not mention her strangulation? He clearly was aware that strangulation had been involved due to the conversations he was overheard having with Doug Stine not more than two days after the murder of his sister.

I remember there was a possibility of John being in denial about JonBenet's cause of death (strangulation). It's quite feasible therefore that Burke came home and said he'd heard JonBenet had been strangled to death and John and Patsy told him not to believe it because the police didn't know what they were talking about. Leaving Burke to invent a knife and hammer scenario.

 

[BoldBear]

As you suggest JR might be lining up to take a bullet for BR, that's why Dr Phil put the flashlight in JR's hands, i.e. Your father said he used the flashlight to put you to bed, note BR was non-committal in reply!.

No. It's the other way around. BR can't be convicted. He put himself on the 1st floor after everyone else had gone to bed and close to the time JB was being murdered. If he's there then he can act as an eye witness and state that no one else was on the 1st floor. But this is 20 years later. If it's not in any of the police reports or any of his interviews, then why add it to the evidence? Because he was being honest in the DP interview? He was coming clean? Does this do anything other than muddy the water?

LW and JR were a part of the DP interview. DP could ask BR anything, but that doesn't mean that BR wasn't thoroughly prepped. He didn't walk into this interview blind. To paraphrase, "I've seen the ransom note but I haven't read the ransom note." Really? That's an attorney's answer. That means I'm not qualified to answer questions about the ransom note so don't ask me anything about it. But seriously, he hadn't overheard anyone talking about it? He wasn't curious? It's 2 1/2 pages and he's a college graduate, a computer programmer, and he has access to the internet. For some reason he knows less about his sister's death than...America. But he knows enough about his sister's death to state that it was an intruder. But he didn't hear or see anything and he was on the 1st floor close to the time his sister was being murdered. But he knows his parents didn't have anything to do with it. And it wasn't his voice on the tape. Up. Down. Right. Left. We're being asked to look everywhere except where the magician's hands are.

 

[PositiveLight]

No. It's the other way around. BR can't be convicted. He put himself on the 1st floor after everyone else had gone to bed and close to the time JB was being murdered. If he's there then he can act as an eye witness and state that no one else was on the 1st floor. But this is 20 years later. If it's not in any of the police reports or any of his interviews, then why add it to the evidence? Because he was being honest in the DP interview? He was coming clean? Does this do anything other than muddy the water?

LW and JR were a part of the DP interview. DP could ask BR anything, but that doesn't mean that BR wasn't thoroughly prepped. He didn't walk into this interview blind. To paraphrase, "I've seen the ransom note but I haven't read the ransom note." Really? That's an attorney's answer. That means I'm not qualified to answer questions about the ransom note so don't ask me anything about it. But seriously, he hadn't overheard anyone talking about it? He wasn't curious? It's 2 1/2 pages and he's a college graduate, a computer programmer, and he has access to the internet. For some reason he knows less about his sister's death than...America. But he knows enough about his sister's death to state that it was an intruder. But he didn't hear or see anything and he was on the 1st floor close to the time his sister was being murdered. But he knows his parents didn't have anything to do with it. And it wasn't his voice on the tape. Up. Down. Right. Left. We're being asked to look everywhere except where the magician's hands are.

I have to give it to the Ramsey's.
They have a strong slight of hand game. They missed their calling. They should have been magicians.

 

[UKGuy]

No. It's the other way around. BR can't be convicted. He put himself on the 1st floor after everyone else had gone to bed and close to the time JB was being murdered. If he's there then he can act as an eye witness and state that no one else was on the 1st floor. But this is 20 years later. If it's not in any of the police reports or any of his interviews, then why add it to the evidence? Because he was being honest in the DP interview? He was coming clean? Does this do anything other than muddy the water?

LW and JR were a part of the DP interview. DP could ask BR anything, but that doesn't mean that BR wasn't thoroughly prepped. He didn't walk into this interview blind. To paraphrase, "I've seen the ransom note but I haven't read the ransom note." Really? That's an attorney's answer. That means I'm not qualified to answer questions about the ransom note so don't ask me anything about it. But seriously, he hadn't overheard anyone talking about it? He wasn't curious? It's 2 1/2 pages and he's a college graduate, a computer programmer, and he has access to the internet. For some reason he knows less about his sister's death than...America. But he knows enough about his sister's death to state that it was an intruder. But he didn't hear or see anything and he was on the 1st floor close to the time his sister was being murdered. But he knows his parents didn't have anything to do with it. And it wasn't his voice on the tape. Up. Down. Right. Left. We're being asked to look everywhere except where the magician's hands are.

BoldBear,
LOL, and Lacy is the Vanishing Lady. If JR has the flashlight upstairs and Spitz is saying someone whacked JonBenet with the flashlight downstairs, JR might say: well not with my one since it was in my bedroom, where I left it after seeing BR to bed?

Sure BR was briefed on what to say, i.e. as little as possible ...

The case for me is 100% BDI, even if JR did a death bed confession I would not believe him.

.

 

[PositiveLight]

Ok a small question. I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea what is possible in the field of law. BUT here's my question.
Okay we know Burke can be protected by the infancy law in Colorado. Like some teens get charged as adults. Can a judge over ride that law if he feels it was done with intent and the parents also charged it they applied the final ligature? I'm interested in what can possibly be done in the name of justice for JonBenet. I am curious if that law can be over rode by a judge if they feel it was an intentional killing.

 

[UKGuy]

If the Boulder DA wanted to, he could lay charges against JR, something related to homicide which has no statute of limitations, e.g. assisting an offender.

They might just take a pragmatic view and say well we cannot prosecute BR, or reference him in any prosecution, so it might be better to leave things as they are?

Someone might might take a civil case against JR, or force another Grand Jury, that's about as far as I see it going, like AH said it's a political decision.

.

 

[PositiveLight]

If the Boulder DA wanted to, he could lay charges against JR, something related to homicide which has no statute of limitations, e.g. assisting an offender.

They might just take a pragmatic view and say well we cannot prosecute BR, or reference him in any prosecution, so it might be better to leave things as they are?

Someone might might take a civil case against JR, or force another Grand Jury, that's about as far as I see it going, like AH said it's a political decision.

.

Think of all the people who have been sued and thrown under the bus by the Ramsey's.
I feel those people should sue the Ramsey's for defamation. It's only fair. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[No it's not]

I remember there was a possibility of John being in denial about JonBenet's cause of death (strangulation). It's quite feasible therefore that Burke came home and said he'd heard JonBenet had been strangled to death and John and Patsy told him not to believe it because the police didn't know what they were talking about. Leaving Burke to invent a knife and hammer scenario.

Interesting, that PR had not read the police reports by April of 1997 (according to PR interview)! She had not taken the time to check the reports for accuracy, the reports that investigated her daughter's murder. She strangely did not know, what police was talking about..

-Nin

 

[No it's not]

Additional sidenote:

From the PR interview:

BBM

[FONT=&amp]TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]PR: She, Burke hit her in the face with a gulf club one time, and the leg…[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]TT: Ay stitches or anything like that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]PR: No, it was just kind of a skin abrasion, she had a little scar, a little teensy little scar there, but it just kind of squashed the skin up and something to stitch it. She had a black eye, and…

So, how many times did JB get into BR's * single* backward swing..?

-Nin
[/FONT]

 

[kanzz]

Ok a small question. I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea what is possible in the field of law. BUT here's my question.
Okay we know Burke can be protected by the infancy law in Colorado. Like some teens get charged as adults. Can a judge over ride that law if he feels it was done with intent and the parents also charged it they applied the final ligature? I'm interested in what can possibly be done in the name of justice for JonBenet. I am curious if that law can be over rode by a judge if they feel it was an intentional killing.

A judge doesn't have the power to override the law. So, no; BR still cannot be charged.
Colorado statute of limitations info:
http://statelaws.findlaw.com/colorado-law/colorado-criminal-statute-of-limitations-laws.html

Aiding and Abetting / Accessory After the Fact isn't specifically mentioned that I can see on the linked page.

Lisa Polansky thinks maybe JR could still be charged as an accessory. That would be great! but I won't hold my breath.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/case-jonbenet-ramsey-could-her-931155

Not just anyone can file a wrongful death suit. That is something reserved for the surviving members of the victim's family.. and we know none of those people will be going down that road.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

singularity,
The minute I saw the long johns/thermals whatever. I knew right away that neither JR or PR dressed JonBenet in them. I could maybe accept PR redressing JonBenet in the size-12's, but the long johns also, absolutely no way!

Obviously I don't know as fact, but those look like BR's long johns, they certainly are not JonBenet's. PR took a bullet when she said I dressed JonBenet in a clean pair of long johns. This explains PR's story about the size-12's being in JonBenet's underwear drawer, she was lying for BR.

I'm revising my BDI theory to include, as per Kolar, that BR staged JonBenet after assaulting her. The parents might be amateur criminals but I think they could have done a better job that what has now been revealed.

PDI, and JDI are dead in the water, no way would either parent redress JonBenet in male pants, not with a complete wardrobe of pageant clothing available in her bedroom, never mind her normal day to day clothing.

JonBenet patently released the urine after being killed, probably as she was being asphyxiated, that's also likely why a blanket was used, can you imagine the smell, never mind the sight?

ETA. Provisionally PR or JR found JonBenet redressed and staged in urine-soaked long johns and size-12's. Someone wiped JonBenet down at this point, possibly JR and PR applied the ligature, possibly inserting either the paintbrush or a finger to fake an assault, then she was wrapped in the blanket and hidden away.

It's possible neither JR or PR knew that JonBenet might still be alive?

.

What I'm curious about is if BR put the long John's on JBR why isn't his DNA on them. I doubt he would know to wear gloves or ....can one lightly handle a piece of a clothing without their DNA being transfered. Does the DNA have to be from sweat, saliva, hair, etc.?

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[PositiveLight]

A judge doesn't have the power to override the law. So, no; BR still cannot be charged.
Colorado statute of limitations info:
http://statelaws.findlaw.com/colorado-law/colorado-criminal-statute-of-limitations-laws.html

Aiding and Abetting / Accessory After the Fact isn't specifically mentioned that I can see on the linked page.

Lisa Polansky thinks maybe JR could still be charged as an accessory. That would be great! but I won't hold my breath.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/case-jonbenet-ramsey-could-her-931155

Not just anyone can file a wrongful death suit. That is something reserved for the surviving members of the victim's family.. and we know none of those people will be going down that road.

Thank you Kanzz!
I sure hope that they are charged somehow with something.

 

[TeaTime]

Ok a small question. I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea what is possible in the field of law. BUT here's my question.
Okay we know Burke can be protected by the infancy law in Colorado. Like some teens get charged as adults. Can a judge over ride that law if he feels it was done with intent and the parents also charged it they applied the final ligature? I'm interested in what can possibly be done in the name of justice for JonBenet. I am curious if that law can be over rode by a judge if they feel it was an intentional killing.

No. It would take an act of the legislature.

 

[PositiveLight]

What I'm curious about is if BR put the long John's on JBR why isn't his DNA on them. I doubt he would know to wear gloves or ....can one lightly handle a piece of a clothing without their DNA being transfered. Does the DNA have to be from sweat, saliva, hair, etc.?

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That's why I think BR left JonBenet half nude.
I think the parents did the staging of the body. Half of me says nooo surely PR would want her found in a beautiful state with her own cute clean clothes on.
But the other half of me screams that if she did that.... it would point directly to her. They had to make it look like an intruder dressed her and didn't know what was
her clothes and what was not. It is part of their magic trick. I think JAR's bathroom drawers were open because PR got gloves out of them for her and John to stage
the scene. In PR's panic she didn't close the drawers. If you think about it... many of the small mistakes could have been from them being panicked and from using a flashlight the whole time they staged the scene. Like the underwear having urine on them. They may not have noticed due to the darkness and only having the flashlight to work with.
They made mistakes for sure. Burke's scene was cleaned up by the parents. JMOO though.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

That's why I think BR left JonBenet half nude.
I think the parents did the staging of the body. Half of me says nooo surely PR would want her found in a beautiful state with her own cute clean clothes on.
But the other half of me screams that if she did that.... it would point directly to her. They had to make it look like an intruder dressed her and didn't know what was
her clothes and what was not. It is part of their magic trick. I think JAR's bathroom drawers were open because PR got gloves out of them for her and John to stage
the scene. In PR's panic she didn't close the drawers. If you think about it... many of the small mistakes could have been from them being panicked and from using a flashlight the whole time they staged the scene. Like the underwear having urine on them. They may not have noticed due to the darkness and only having the flashlight to work with.
They made mistakes for sure. Burke's scene was cleaned up by the parents. JMOO though.

Thanks, so much to comprehend!

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