Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Tortoise]

ok I'm sure this has been mentioned but I just caught it ,the interview with Burke he said " mom came in the room to see if he was awake , and seemed upset" the doctor asked him what he heard , he stated " she was going psycho all night! I never caught that before forgive me if already discussed

BR: "I just heard mum like going psycho"

Police: "going psycho?"

BR: "yeah, or like, you know"

 

[icedtea4me]

I don't. But if memory serves, he said he went back down after everyone was asleep.

Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed that night and then you snuck downstairs to play.

Burke: yeah. I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed...


Just because one is in bed or kind of in bed (as Burke said) doesn't necessarily mean that one is sleeping.

 

[HarmonyE.]

There you go, Tortoise. Ramsey adults lied then and now. A young child who could express such deviance and violence towards his sister, would have been insane on some level. Insanity doesn't just go away when the object of your hatred is dead. I've never believed he hated JBR and wanted her dead. Any scenario can be woven around facts (or what we believe to be factual) and made to look believable. IMO, the ones who left fiber evidence on that precious child are the ones who killed her.

First, Burke was almost 10, so a little more than a "young child". There are numerous historical and contemporary stories of kids his age killing smaller and weaker children, either accidentally, on purpose, or accidentally on purpose.

Secondly, you are making an assumption about child murderers that is not borne out by actual examples. Most who kill as kids are not insane and do not grow up to be insane, and regardless of the level or rehabilitation (or lack thereof) they do not grow up to be killers. We also have no way of knowing whether Burke had extensive therapy after the murders or not.

As for you never believing Burke hated his sister, how would you know this one way or the other? We don't know what was in his head. But it is certainly plausible - if not likely - that he deeply resented the very special treatment she got from the parent who was around every day. The parent who was unavailable in his earlier life due to very serious and expected to be terminal illness.

I believe the fiber evidence was left by the people who staged the crime scene. Two people bound together with a common mission to protect their remaining child from any and all scrutiny.

 

[UKGuy]

Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed that night and then you snuck downstairs to play.

Burke: yeah. I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed...


Just because one is in bed or kind of in bed (as Burke said) doesn't necessarily mean that one is sleeping.

icedtea4me,
The minute I heard that on Dr Phil I thought it was suspect. Is JR saying BR snuck downstairs or is Dr Phil saying it because BR said it?

JR now claims, via DP, that he used the flashlight. Does this mean he took it back to his room or left in BR's room?

kind of in bed is likely BR speak for everyone was upstairs?

.

 

[UKGuy]

There you go, Tortoise. Ramsey adults lied then and now. A young child who could express such deviance and violence towards his sister, would have been insane on some level. Insanity doesn't just go away when the object of your hatred is dead. I've never believed he hated JBR and wanted her dead. Any scenario can be woven around facts (or what we believe to be factual) and made to look believable. IMO, the ones who left fiber evidence on that precious child are the ones who killed her.

southernmimi,
What is weird about this case, is that an alleged killer has grown up and got on with his life. Who will protect BR once JR leaves us, even JR must realize that this is the weak point in all his machinations?

Whatever the motive, personally I do not think it was either jealousy or hatred, I reckon it was a sexually motivated homicide, Playing Doctor gone wrong, BR just went to far?

Looks like BR did the initial sexual assault, head blow and ligature asphyxiation, with the parents doing the rest, basically staging a fake kidnapping and adding the paintbrush and restraints.

If its not BDI why did the GJ not charge one or both parents with First Degree Murder?

.

 

[kanzz]

There you go, Tortoise. Ramsey adults lied then and now. A young child who could express such deviance and violence towards his sister, would have been insane on some level. Insanity doesn't just go away when the object of your hatred is dead. I've never believed he hated JBR and wanted her dead. Any scenario can be woven around facts (or what we believe to be factual) and made to look believable. IMO, the ones who left fiber evidence on that precious child are the ones who killed her.

You have concluded that "A young child who could express such deviance and violence towards his sister, would have been insane on some level." That is a logical fallacy of false cause. One does not necessarily need to be "insane on some level" to commit such an act. More likely, there might be some kind of underlying sociopathy, but not always. It doesn't take a diagnosis for a kid who already has jealousy and other issues with his little sister to lash out and for one thing to lead to another.
He might be a callous-unemotional. Those kids show little empathy for others or remorse for their own actions, and they are sometimes prone to violence. The videos of his interviews just days after JB died are chilling. He seems very detached and "callous-unemotional", imo.

 

[southernmimi]

southernmimi,
What is weird about this case, is that an alleged killer has grown up and got on with his life. Who will protect BR once JR leaves us, even JR must realize that this is the weak point in all his machinations?

Whatever the motive, personally I do not think it was either jealousy or hatred, I reckon it was a sexually motivated homicide, Playing Doctor gone wrong, BR just went to far?

Looks like BR did the initial sexual assault, head blow and ligature asphyxiation, with the parents doing the rest, basically staging a fake kidnapping and adding the paintbrush and restraints.

If its not BDI why did the GJ not charge one or both parents with First Degree Murder?



I don't think it was jealousy or hatred either. Like most, I have my own ideas and opinions but little else.

 

[k-mac]

As for you never believing Burke hated his sister, how would you know this one way or the other? We don't know what was in his head. But it is certainly plausible - if not likely - that he deeply resented the very special treatment she got from the parent who was around every day.

if you watch the last two public appearances of JBR ( a week before and two days before she died, the rocking around the christmas tree) she had really really come along in her singing, performing, confidence and physical poise and charisma. cant imagine the depth of time devotion and commitment to making a 6 yr old so preened. all consuming for PR leading up to christmas i bet.....

 

[HarmonyE.]

if you watch the last two public appearances of JBR ( a week before and two days before she died, the rocking around the christmas tree) she had really really come along in her singing, performing, confidence and physical poise and charisma. cant imagine the depth of time devotion and commitment to making a 6 yr old so preened. all consuming for PR leading up to christmas i bet.....

Good point. She really had come a long way singing and dancing-wise by her last performance. Patsy always tried to fluff it all off as just a "Sunday afternoon thing", but that was just the pageants. The work that went into the preparation for them - all the hours of practice, costume selection and tailoring, the make up, not to mention all of the other things JBR was involved with - must have taken up a tremendous amount of both Patsy's and JBR's time. John was working all the time. And Burke was left alone with his video games. I can't imagine that not troubling the most well-adjusted kid, and Burke had already lost a lot of time with his mother while she was very sick and traveling for treatment.

 

[BBB167893]

Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed that night and then you snuck downstairs to play.

Burke: yeah. I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed...


Just because one is in bed or kind of in bed (as Burke said) doesn't necessarily mean that one is sleeping.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Maybe JB heard him get up and went after him?

 

[HarmonyE.]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Maybe JB heard him get up and went after him?

Kids on Christmas night with their brand new toys downstairs? Toys they knew they weren't going to see for a dog's age in kid time? Parents on the third floor? Whether Burke woke her up accidentally or on purpose, or whether she was never asleep or just happened to wake up on her own, yeah, I can easily see them both downstairs after P and J had gone up.

 

[PositiveLight]

Hi Kanzz,

Thank you for this! I am not surprised that psychopathic tendencies showed up at an age before nine. I believe early detection of psychopathy can only be
realized if this testing is implemented throughout the field.

I am of the opinion that this standard testing could ultimately save lives. This testing for psychopathic tendencies would only be conducted where there
is conduct disorder and similar markers.

Testing children for psychopathic tendencies at earlier ages is being rigorously debated.

http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/10/6/466

Just my opinion. If we knew the truth in this case we wouldn't need opinions nor this thread but I would miss the awesome people on here.

I don't think it would be a bad idea
for all children to be tested in school yearly by a psych exam to catch for possible issues.
Like once a year in the first few weeks, kids fill out some type of questionnaire or something and it is geared to the age of the kids.
Children who test positive for possible problems are offered counseling and help through the school system.
Of course parents would need to approve it for their child. But I do think it would catch some of the kids with behavioral issues early and be able to
assist them in getting free care and help. This includes ADD ADHD etc.
Some parents don't realize their kids might have issues and/or don't care or don't have the time or money to seek help.
JMO

ETA: They could actually hire a child psychologist for each county to do the testing and follow up. I'd be willing to pay extra taxes to help these kids get the help they may need.
Not all parents are vigilant or even care sadly and these kids end up in trouble as they grow older.
Just like they have a school nurse that goes to several different schools a day or stays at one all day (my cousin is a school nurse and stays at one school).
This could be a free program to help children. Getting them early intervention is very important.

 

[PositiveLight]

Someone with a medical training needs to step in here if I am wrong, but I believe the bruising to the vaginal area and the inflammation and bleeding means it was an ante-mortem injury, sustained before her heart stopped beating.

You are correct.
The heart had to have been beating when the injuries occurred. So my possible theory is

1.) Rough playing doctor causing injury/ scream
2.) Head injury
3.) Possible half a$$ attempt to strangle with either a cord nearby or her turtle neck (if she was in fact wearing it) to stop her from seizing possibly
4.) found and cleaned up by parents and redressed.
5.) Final Ligature strangulation by JR or PR in basement and scene staged.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*And Burke was left alone with his video games.*snip*

Burke is busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It is a
Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement.
He loves it! He continues with Boy Scouting and the piano. This winter he is the
tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf
and sailing lessons each day. Burke is quite the sailor!

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1995xmasnewsletter.txt

Burke is a busy fourth grader where he really shines in math and spelling.
He played flag football this fall and is currently on a basketball binge! His
little league team was #1. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth, so I'm sure
we'll be seeing the orthodontist in 1997!

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1996xmasnewsletter.txt

 

[HarmonyE.]

Burke is busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It is a
Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement.
He loves it! He continues with Boy Scouting and the piano. This winter he is the
tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf
and sailing lessons each day. Burke is quite the sailor!

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1995xmasnewsletter.txt

Burke is a busy fourth grader where he really shines in math and spelling.
He played flag football this fall and is currently on a basketball binge! His
little league team was #1. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth, so I'm sure
we'll be seeing the orthodontist in 1997!

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1996xmasnewsletter.txt

Ah, yes, Patsy’s effusive portrayal of America’s most perfect family. Except they weren’t by a long shot.

 

[icedtea4me]

Ah, yes, Patsy’s effusive portrayal of America’s most perfect family. Except they weren’t by a long shot.

I posted those as proof that Burke had more than just video games in his life.

 

[Afterimage]

You are correct.
The heart had to have been beating when the injuries occurred. So my possible theory is

1.) Rough playing doctor causing injury/ scream
2.) Head injury
3.) Possible half a$$ attempt to strangle with either a cord nearby or her turtle neck (if she was in fact wearing it) to stop her from seizing possibly
4.) found and cleaned up by parents and redressed.
5.) Final Ligature strangulation by JR or PR in basement and scene staged.

I really don't believe that B bashed her in the head due to playing doctor. I think it was over the pineapple, because...there was only one piece of pineapple found in JB digestive track...it did not seem to be chewed well (she swallowed it in a hurry), and the fact that B was particular about his food. (When the psychologist accidently took a sip of his drink, she said he got an angry look on his face and said he couldn't drink the rest of the drink cause she had taken a sip o it).

I also don't think B strangled JB at all. I just think that he committed the head blow and then either told his mom that JB was injured, OR he left her lay there and went back to his room. I think he may have tried to rouse her first with the train tracks or maybe J or P used the train tracks to try to rouse her. We just don't know.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I posted those as proof that Burke had more than just video games in his life.

I know. My point is that it's all according to Patsy who always wanted to portray her family as why more perfect than anyone else's.

 

[Heymom]

I really don't believe that B bashed her in the head due to playing doctor. I think it was over the pineapple, because...there was only one piece of pineapple found in JB digestive track...it did not seem to be chewed well (she swallowed it in a hurry), and the fact that B was particular about his food. (When the psychologist accidently took a sip of his drink, she said he got an angry look on his face and said he couldn't drink the rest of the drink cause she had taken a sip o it).

I also don't think B strangled JB at all. I just think that he committed the head blow and then either told his mom that JB was injured, OR he left her lay there and went back to his room. I think he may have tried to rouse her first with the train tracks or maybe J or P used the train tracks to try to rouse her. We just don't know.

Where did you get this information? It was not in the autopsy report. Who ever said that she ate only one piece of pineapple or that she chewed it in a hurry? Please remember not to just spread information that is not fact-based.

 

[PositiveLight]

Burke is busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It is a
Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement.
He loves it! He continues with Boy Scouting and the piano. This winter he is the
tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf
and sailing lessons each day. Burke is quite the sailor!

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1995xmasnewsletter.txt

Burke is a busy fourth grader where he really shines in math and spelling.
He played flag football this fall and is currently on a basketball binge! His
little league team was #1. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth, so I'm sure
we'll be seeing the orthodontist in 1997!

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1996xmasnewsletter.txt

Something jumped out at me reading the second letter.
Actually a couple of things.
Melinda is a pediatric ICU nurse. She may have been contacted by PR or JR asking for suggestions and what to do to help her. She may have went by what they were telling her and she told them there isn't any coming back from it. Just a thought of course but you never know!
next, compare the paragraph size between BR and JonBenet. Sounds like she was really proud of JonBenet's accomplishments and didn't really go into BR's with as much
pride.
Also that is the first time I've heard they had another home tour in July of 96'.
She also seems in a small way angry at JR. Like he is always gone and up to guy things and never home. BUT she's proud of that money!
Just some observations from me and JMOO

ETA: you can also see the difference in the first letter if you compare the sizes of the paragraphs about BR and JonBenet.
I can really see why BR was jealous honestly.