Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Userid]

No. These are the facts. I refuse to acknowledge any theory of strangulation being first, it simply did not happen and frankly I am really tired of people rehashing for the sake of rehashing facts that are known. The other facts are based on what was reported by those who investigated this case trying to find the killer. I just can't and won't put the last 20 years of info together in a nice neat package for purposes of dissection. It is what it is. Sorry.

Okay, I didn't mean to offend you or anything; I was just asking.

 

[Userid]

Does anyone mind if I do?



That estimate was provided by Werner Spitz, first revealed in ITRMI. Kolar confirms.



Admittedly, this is a guess-timate, but the pathologists and neurologists said that there was anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours between the head injury being inflicted and her finally dying. So if she died at 1:00 AM, this is not unreasonable to surmise. (Spock moment!)



This we know because of the digestion rate of pineapple: http://www.unani.com/digestion_time_of_foods.htm



BR admitted this on the recent Dr Phil broadcast.

Thank you SuperDave, much appreciated.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*BR admitted this on the recent Dr Phil broadcast.

How do you know he didn't go back down at 10:01 p.m.?

 

[kanzz]

Userid,
Here is my take on it:

There are two possible sequence of events, e.g.

1. Sexual Assault.
2. Head Injury.
3. Ligature Asphyxiation.

and

1. Sexual Assault.
2. Manual Asphyxiation.
3. Head Injury.
5. Ligature Asphyxiation.

The head injury precedes the ligature asphyxiation as time is required for the brain to swell and oxygen deprivation to set in.

The first sequence is the most likeliest, and TeaTime's timeline is reasonably accurate. You could tweek the intervals, 15 minutes here half an hour there and still be able to put BR in the frame. That is why his admission on Dr Phil that he was downstairs after everyone was in bed is so revealing..

Here is another possible sequence:

1. Head injury
2. Sexual abuse
3. Ligature strangulation

p.s. I don't find "manual asphyxiation" in the AR.

 

[Userid]

By "sexual assault" I'm assuming the assault with the paint brush and the motive of covering up past sexual abuse as part of the staging by the parents. With that in mind, I have this question: so there is zero chance at all that the order could have been this, correct (assuming the assault occurred immediately after the strangulation?

1. Head injury
2. Ligature strangulation
3. Sexual assault

It just seems like, if the R's were involved (which I believe they were), they would want to make sure she had passed before taking this step in order to limit her suffering, no?

 

[TeaTime]

how do you know he didn't go back down at 10:01 p.m.?

ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

 

[Tortoise]

By "sexual assault" I'm assuming the assault with the paint brush and the motive of covering up past sexual abuse as part of the staging by the parents. With that in mind, I have this question: so there is zero chance at all that the order could have been this, correct (assuming the assault occurred immediately after the strangulation?

1. Head injury
2. Ligature strangulation
3. Sexual assault

It just seems like, if the R's were involved (which I believe they were), they would want to make sure she had passed before taking this step in order to limit her suffering, no?

Someone with a medical training needs to step in here if I am wrong, but I believe the bruising to the vaginal area and the inflammation and bleeding means it was an ante-mortem injury, sustained before her heart stopped beating.

 

[kanzz]

Someone with a medical training needs to step in here if I am wrong, but I believe the bruising to the vaginal area and the inflammation and bleeding means it was an ante-mortem injury, sustained before her heart stopped beating.

That is correct.

 

[southernmimi]

I'm trying to agree that BR did this to his sister then life just went on. When I make myself go step--by-step through that large home late at night and imagine a 9 yr. old boy doing all of what was done to JBR, I just find it very hard to accept. Maybe it's because I have a grandson and granddaughter who are now 9 and 6 yrs. old. I was a social worker for over 34 yrs. and have experienced my share of mentally and evil people, but this scenario is just too unimaginable for me.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm trying to agree that BR did this to his sister then life just went on. When I make myself go step--by-step through that large home late at night and imagine a 9 yr. old boy doing all of what was done to JBR, I just find it very hard to accept. Maybe it's because I have a grandson and granddaughter who are now 9 and 6 yrs. old. I was a social worker for over 34 yrs. and have experienced my share of mentally and evil people, but this scenario is just too unimaginable for me.

Even with the language of the true bills? What about Thompson and Venables and all the other children who kill? Or the three boys who set Kayden Culp on fire?

Life did go on. BR admitted it himself he was just getting on with life.

 

[UKGuy]

Here is another possible sequence:

1. Head injury
2. Sexual abuse
3. Ligature strangulation

p.s. I don't find "manual asphyxiation" in the AR.

kanzz,
Yes that's another sequence. Although I assumed 1. Sexual Assault that they were playing doctor. Your sequence would be typical of a predator, a Ted Bundy type, whack then assault!

In my second sequence I'm allowing for vagus nerve compression. This happens occasionally when someone is restrained manually by the neck, and the pressure causes the reflex unconsciousness.

I'm not saying it happened, but like your sequence it may have.

.

 

[UKGuy]

By "sexual assault" I'm assuming the assault with the paint brush and the motive of covering up past sexual abuse as part of the staging by the parents. With that in mind, I have this question: so there is zero chance at all that the order could have been this, correct (assuming the assault occurred immediately after the strangulation?

1. Head injury
2. Ligature strangulation
3. Sexual assault

It just seems like, if the R's were involved (which I believe they were), they would want to make sure she had passed before taking this step in order to limit her suffering, no?

Userid,
Its more likely to be:

1. Sexual Assault i.e manual.

2. Head Injury.

3. Sexual Assault i.e. staging using the paintbrush

4. Ligature Asphyxiation.

JonBenet was bleeding internally, this would not happen if she was dead.

.

 

[southernmimi]

Even with the language of the true bills? What about Thompson and Venables and all the other children who kill? Or the three boys who set Kayden Culp on fire?

Life did go on. BR admitted it himself he was just getting on with life.

We know about those children because they were caught, found guilty, and are being punished.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I'm trying to agree that BR did this to his sister then life just went on. When I make myself go step--by-step through that large home late at night and imagine a 9 yr. old boy doing all of what was done to JBR, I just find it very hard to accept. Maybe it's because I have a grandson and granddaughter who are now 9 and 6 yrs. old. I was a social worker for over 34 yrs. and have experienced my share of mentally and evil people, but this scenario is just too unimaginable for me.

I agree it's so hard to believe a 9 year old boy could do these things to his 6 year old sister. I am learning however that there are some imaginable things that go on in this world that includes child on child deviance, torture and murder. Very scary and sickening.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[BBB167893]

Superdave!!! You are up early! Or maybe late......

Late. I work evening shifts.

So I have been up since 2:30.......trying not to think about election, so decided to check out WS. Anyway, my question you and others is that supposedly BR said he would take a lie detector test if cops asked him to. With that said,, why DON'T they ask him!?

I'm not sure it would do any good at this point, bethanna. After 20 years, he may have convinced himself of anything. Lest we forget, his parents said they'd take lie detector tests, but when the police DID offer, they refused.

 

[BBB167893]

How do you know he didn't go back down at 10:01 p.m.?

I don't. But if memory serves, he said he went back down after everyone was asleep.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't. But if memory serves, he said he went back down after everyone was asleep.

The trouble with accepting that is that we know -

JonBenet didn't go to sleep (she was wearing the red turtleneck according to Patsy, and this is unlikely to be sleepwear), she was very unlikely to be asleep in the car because 9 yr old Burke said she helped carry gifts in to the Stine's house and then walked into the house when they got home. She also ate pineapple probably within the hour after they got home.
Patsy likely never went to sleep at all that night (she still had her make up and clothes on from the outing that day)
And I don't believe John took his melatonin and went to sleep either, because his shirt fibres are on JonBenet's genital area and in the too large underpants, meaning he wasn't in sleepwear at the time JonBenet was dressed in them after the assault.
The house lights were all turned off in this time frame of around midnight, probably by an adult who would think of this. Patsy said she usually left on lights around the staircase in case they needed to get up in the night.

So accepting what Burke says about creeping around in the dark with the flashlight after everyone was ASLEEP seems to be pure confirmation bias of BDI. He never said it at the time and I think he would have stuck to the same story of staying in bed, if there was any chance he did this. I think he has heard his dad say he wanted to play with a toy when they got home, and vaguely remembers playing with it alone while his parents were busy upstairs. Just like he seems to have a false memory of receiving a bike that Christmas, possibly because John invented that a few years later. What other people tell you as a child, can get imprinted as actual memories.

Do we have the parents undressing for bed, and then stopping to put their day clothes back on (red fibres from Patsy's sweater, velvet fibres from John's shirt cuffs) to handle an emergency, and not just attending to JonBenet as they were in their nightwear or simply pulling on a robe?

Burke thought JonBenet had been stabbed. If he thought she had died because of a head wound he had inflicted, why did he invent the stabbing? If he wanted to keep his part in the attack on JonBenet's head a secret, why did he say a hammer was used? Wouldn't he have said she was taken and hit with whatever he actually hit her with, to put the weapon in the attacker's hands? He was guessing. I just can't get on the BDI train. Even if he didn't like JonBenet.

 

[southernmimi]

The trouble with accepting that is that we know -

JonBenet didn't go to sleep (she was wearing the red turtleneck according to Patsy, and this is unlikely to be sleepwear), she was very unlikely to be asleep in the car because 9 yr old Burke said she helped carry gifts in to the Stine's house and then walked into the house when they got home. She also ate pineapple probably within the hour after they got home.
Patsy likely never went to sleep at all that night (she still had her make up and clothes on from the outing that day)
And I don't believe John took his melatonin and went to sleep either, because his shirt fibres are on JonBenet's genital area and in the too large underpants, meaning he wasn't in sleepwear at the time JonBenet was dressed in them after the assault.
The house lights were all turned off in this time frame of around midnight, probably by an adult who would think of this. Patsy said she usually left on lights around the staircase in case they needed to get up in the night.

So accepting what Burke says about creeping around in the dark with the flashlight after everyone was ASLEEP seems to be pure confirmation bias of BDI. He never said it at the time and I think he would have stuck to the same story of staying in bed, if there was any chance he did this. I think he has heard his dad say he wanted to play with a toy when they got home, and vaguely remembers playing with it alone while his parents were busy upstairs. Just like he seems to have a false memory of receiving a bike that Christmas, possibly because John invented that a few years later. What other people tell you as a child, can get imprinted as actual memories.

Do we have the parents undressing for bed, and then stopping to put their day clothes back on (red fibres from Patsy's sweater, velvet fibres from John's shirt cuffs) to handle an emergency, and not just attending to JonBenet as they were in their nightwear or simply pulling on a robe?

Burke thought JonBenet had been stabbed. If he thought she had died because of a head wound he had inflicted, why did he invent the stabbing? If he wanted to keep his part in the attack on JonBenet's head a secret, why did he say a hammer was used? Wouldn't he have said she was taken and hit with whatever he actually hit her with, to put the weapon in the attacker's hands? He was guessing. I just can't get on the BDI train. Even if he didn't like JonBenet.

There you go, Tortoise. Ramsey adults lied then and now. A young child who could express such deviance and violence towards his sister, would have been insane on some level. Insanity doesn't just go away when the object of your hatred is dead. I've never believed he hated JBR and wanted her dead. Any scenario can be woven around facts (or what we believe to be factual) and made to look believable. IMO, the ones who left fiber evidence on that precious child are the ones who killed her.

 

[sloane7777]

ok I'm sure this has been mentioned but I just caught it ,the interview with Burke he said " mom came in the room to see if he was awake , and seemed upset" the doctor asked him what he heard , he stated " she was going psycho all night! I never caught that before forgive me if already discussed

 

[Userid]

I'm trying to agree that BR did this to his sister then life just went on. When I make myself go step--by-step through that large home late at night and imagine a 9 yr. old boy doing all of what was done to JBR, I just find it very hard to accept. Maybe it's because I have a grandson and granddaughter who are now 9 and 6 yrs. old. I was a social worker for over 34 yrs. and have experienced my share of mentally and evil people, but this scenario is just too unimaginable for me.

I agree. I feel that BR could have been involved in some way, particularly in striking his sister, but I don't believe he fashioned a garrote and/or sexually assaulted his sister with a broken paintbrush. The garrote in particular is impossible to fathom. He was an odd kid to say the least, but he wasn't an evil mastermind who was able to get away with murder with a little help from his parents.

That said, something incredibly strange was going on inside that house that night, and all 3 of them -- BR included -- knew/knows more than they ever let on.