Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Tortoise]

their DA mole told them about the sexual assault right after the autopsy was performed grrrr

Right.That explains it then. Not that they didn't already know of course, but they had tried so hard to remove traces of it and focus attention away from it, hoping it wouldn't come to light. They didn't think the body would be examined for sexual assault and they didn't think her intestines would be opened.

John had to quickly erase his story about reading to JonBenet. It was never true anyway, but he wanted to create a loving father daughter normal bedtime scenario. JonBenet was not asleep when they got home and they didn't put her to bed that night at all!

 

[madeleine]

Right.That explains it then. Not that they didn't already know of course, but they had tried so hard to remove traces of it and focus attention away from it, hoping it wouldn't come to light. They didn't think the body would be examined for sexual assault and they didn't think her intestines would be opened.

John had to quickly erase his story about reading to JonBenet. It was never true anyway, but he wanted to create a loving father daughter normal bedtime scenario. JonBenet was not asleep when they got home and they didn't put her to bed that night at all!

"she fell asleep in the car" also tries to explain why she was wearing the same shirt she wore at the party. If they didn't wanna wake her up why change the pants at all. The story stinks.

 

[UKGuy]

"she fell asleep in the car" also tries to explain why she was wearing the same shirt she wore at the party. If they didn't wanna wake her up why change the pants at all. The story stinks.

madeleine,

BBM: except for BR's long johns. PR has the cheek to say she dressed JonBenet in them. A whole wardrobe of nice cloths and PR selects male long johns. Do I believe that, not for one minute, its staging all the way down, by two different people.

.

 

[Scandigirl]

BBM: No, you just assume what suits your ideas about the case, if they lead to a contradiction, then just tweak your theory to include your resolved contradiction, simple.

What the Stine's say, i.e. intact family sounds a lot like zonked talk. Yet it does imply Susan Stine saw all the R's in her house?

Hi UkGuy, thanks again for your reply, and the info about the bloodstained pillow and blood droplets in the basement. It's definitely something to ponder...

I agree that, assuming the Stines are telling the truth about seeing the Ramseys as an "intact" family for the last time, it certainly implies that that includes all of them. I also agree that the word "intact" seems chosen, to specifically make that point. It does imply that JR was lying, as Tortoise pointed out, and he didn't stay behind in the car with a sleeping JB. It does seem that JR was tailoring his story constantly as he went along!

I find it hard to read the interview transcripts between JR, PR and the police, as I can't believe how poorly worded the questions were, how much the police virtually apologised for asking them anything difficult, and how the Ramseys were blatantly let off the hook all the time ,when it was obvious they were changing their stories as and when they needed to. I believe there's a strong chance that if all three Ramseys had been separated and interrogated properly from Day One, with detectives who were sharp witted and determined not to stand for any nonsense, at least one of them would probably have cracked within the first week, despite their bulldog lawyers! But, we'll obviously never know for sure now.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi UkGuy, thanks again for your reply, and the info about the bloodstained pillow and blood droplets in the basement. It's definitely something to ponder...

I agree that, assuming the Stines are telling the truth about seeing the Ramseys as an "intact" family for the last time, it certainly implies that that includes all of them. I also agree that the word "intact" seems chosen, to specifically make that point. It does imply that JR was lying, as Tortoise pointed out, and he didn't stay behind in the car with a sleeping JB. It does seem that JR was tailoring his story constantly as he went along!

I find it hard to read the interview transcripts between JR, PR and the police, as I can't believe how poorly worded the questions were, how much the police virtually apologised for asking them anything difficult, and how the Ramseys were blatantly let off the hook all the time ,when it was obvious they were changing their stories as and when they needed to. I believe there's a strong chance that if all three Ramseys had been separated and interrogated properly from Day One, with detectives who were sharp witted and determined not to stand for any nonsense, at least one of them would probably have cracked within the first week, despite their bulldog lawyers! But, we'll obviously never know for sure now.

Scandigirl,
Like Michael Jackson with his propofol and benzodiazepine addiction along with creating a family ex nihilo just to promote his image, money talks!

 

[icedtea4me]

madeleine,

BBM: except for BR's long johns. PR has the cheek to say she dressed JonBenet in them. A whole wardrobe of nice cloths and PR selects male long johns. Do I believe that, not for one minute, its staging all the way down, by two different people.

.

What if Patsy was conveying a message via the longjohns that John was long (long John) that night?

 

[kanzz]

Todd Christopher Kohlhepp, America's newly discovered serial killer (secondary to the finding of Kala Brown alive), is one spooky dude. Reading his psych evals from when he, at age 15, raped a 14 yr old girl, is making the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Several things stand out, not the least of which is, "At less than the age of 9, this juvenile was impulsive, explosive, and preoccupied with sexual content."

Psych eval Madison Street Jail

Maricopa County Psych Eval

Presentence Investigation Report

Recommendation for Criminal Prosecution

Letter from mother seeking his release

 

[TeaTime]

Was BR involved?

The time of death is estimated to be 1:00am on 12/26.

The head blow came between 11:00pm on 12/25 and 12:15am on 12/26.

JBR ate pineapple about 2 hours prior to her death, or 11:00pm on 12/25.

BR was downstairs, alone, after 10:30pm on 12/25.

Pineapple was downstairs in a bowl with his prints on it.

He either caused the head injury or he witnessed the murder. There are no other options.

He didn't go downstairs, play with a toy, make a snack of pineapple but not eat it, then go back upstairs and fall asleep just as an intruder was sneaking JBR downstairs to feed her BR's pineapple, bash in her skull, wait around for up to 2 hours and then strangle her, shut her off in the WC and walk out the house without leaving a trace of himself UNLESS you believe that the tDNA has meaning because then 5 men and 1 woman converged on the house to kill her and not collect JR's yearly bonus.

She was zonked, I carried her from the car to her room upstairs and took her coat off, then PR dressed her for bed. JR

I read to her.

I read to myself.

She was zonked, JR carried her upstairs and I dressed her in a red turtleneck and white leggings and put her hair in ponytails.

She walked upstairs on her own.

Why can't they recall the most basic things? Because they do not know where the dropping shoe will fall.

 

[passionflower]

"WHO killed Jon Benet" right now on LifeHD TV
interesting how Burke is interested in bon fires in Michigan and not his sister

 

[otg]

"WHO killed Jon Benet" right now on LifeHD TV
interesting how Burke is interested in bon fires in Michigan and not his sister

I've always tried to avoid trying to psychoanalyze Burke from the reports we get. First of all, I'm not qualified, and secondly, I don't put a great deal of faith in what doctors know about the human psyche. But I saw him on Phil's show -- a display that can't be unseen.

Anyways... Years ago when I first heard about his being disappointed that he wouldn't be going to Michigan and get to make a fire because his sister was missing (whether or not he knew she was dead at that point is debatable of course), I thought how disengaged from reality he must have been or even completely devoid of any empathy for JonBenet. But to mention looking forward to making a fire just made bells go off in my head because of things I had read about the childhoods of different killers. Add to the fascination with fires his late-stage bedwetting and the suspicious arrangement the Ramseys had with Jacques-II and you have what is known as the Macdonald triad:

"The triad links cruelty to animals, obsession with fire setting, and persistent bedwetting past a certain age, to violent behaviors, particularly homicidal behavior and sexually predatory behavior."
​

None of this is proof of anything. But all together, it does make anyone want to scratch their head and go :waitasec:.

 

[Nerissa]

Back in 2008-09 I posted a bit. Nothing significant. It is a feeling of true vindication & finally a glimmer of justice I find myself here again - & to find so many voices, so knowledgeable. You've played a part, most important in keeping the torch lit! I thank all of you long time websleuthers! (Though I wonder where DeeDee has gone?)
What spurred me to post is how this thread has gone a bit awry from 'Burke did it' to the rabbit hole of Ramsey obfustication.
Why read their lies to read in between them?
Even before Kolar I had suspected Burke killed JB.
Kolar & his access to all information seals that deal.
The other tool in our Occam's razor chest is the grand jury.
I do believe that they heard testimony to the fact that B may have been speaking openly about harming if not outright killing JB
That is why they are culpable in not only knowing but abetting said person in the murder of their own child - via the fact they knew a threat was serious & imminent but did nothing.
(Paraphrase of course)
I suppose I'm posting because I am reading posts chasing the Ramsey's illogical statements & lies. Truth does not lie that way.
Personally I believe B did it all (not the ransom note).the scream that night was Patsy.
I think it is quite possible there was an element of premeditation.
But, you know, that's sorta my point: I know who did it. I won't get too boggled in the obfustication at this point!
(Though it's entertaining reading!!)

 

[kanzz]

Back in 2008-09 I posted a bit. Nothing significant. It is a feeling of true vindication & finally a glimmer of justice I find myself here again - & to find so many voices, so knowledgeable. You've played a part, most important in keeping the torch lit! I thank all of you long time websleuthers! (Though I wonder where DeeDee has gone?)
What spurred me to post is how this thread has gone a bit awry from 'Burke did it' to the rabbit hole of Ramsey obfustication.
Why read their lies to read in between them?
Even before Kolar I had suspected Burke killed JB.
Kolar & his access to all information seals that deal.
The other tool in our Occam's razor chest is the grand jury.
I do believe that they heard testimony to the fact that B may have been speaking openly about harming if not outright killing JB
That is why they are culpable in not only knowing but abetting said person in the murder of their own child - via the fact they knew a threat was serious & imminent but did nothing.
(Paraphrase of course)
I suppose I'm posting because I am reading posts chasing the Ramsey's illogical statements & lies. Truth does not lie that way.
Personally I believe B did it all (not the ransom note).the scream that night was Patsy.
I think it is quite possible there was an element of premeditation.
But, you know, that's sorta my point: I know who did it. I won't get too boggled in the obfustication at this point!
(Though it's entertaining reading!!)

ITA!
And - there was a "DeDee" here recently. I replied to her. Here is her post:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...NOT-Have-Been-Cleared&p=12913235#post12913235

 

[singularity]

She's probably referring to DeeDee249.

 

[Nerissa]

Indeed I am. DeeDee249 & Superdave were mainstays & folks like OTG & UKGuy
Truly humbled by their (& others) perseverance.
Even if theories differed the desired outcome & pervasive hope was justice for JBR

 

[Userid]

Was BR involved?

The time of death is estimated to be 1:00am on 12/26.

The head blow came between 11:00pm on 12/25 and 12:15am on 12/26.

JBR ate pineapple about 2 hours prior to her death, or 11:00pm on 12/25.

BR was downstairs, alone, after 10:30pm on 12/25.

Pineapple was downstairs in a bowl with his prints on it.

He either caused the head injury or he witnessed the murder. There are no other options.

He didn't go downstairs, play with a toy, make a snack of pineapple but not eat it, then go back upstairs and fall asleep just as an intruder was sneaking JBR downstairs to feed her BR's pineapple, bash in her skull, wait around for up to 2 hours and then strangle her, shut her off in the WC and walk out the house without leaving a trace of himself UNLESS you believe that the tDNA has meaning because then 5 men and 1 woman converged on the house to kill her and not collect JR's yearly bonus.

She was zonked, I carried her from the car to her room upstairs and took her coat off, then PR dressed her for bed. JR

I read to her.

I read to myself.

She was zonked, JR carried her upstairs and I dressed her in a red turtleneck and white leggings and put her hair in ponytails.

She walked upstairs on her own.

Why can't they recall the most basic things? Because they do not know where the dropping shoe will fall.

Can I ask where you're getting the bolded from (source)? It's just confusing because, I've heard these things too, but then you have another side claiming that the head injury couldn't have come before the strangulation. It seems like it's like this in every case, unfortunately -- you never know which side to believe.

 

[Userid]

"WHO killed Jon Benet" right now on LifeHD TV
interesting how Burke is interested in bon fires in Michigan and not his sister

I watched this and also "JonBenet's Mother: Victim or Killer?" right after. It was ironic because, the movie alludes to the R's being involved, but the documentary that followed absolves PR and heeds to the IDI theory.

I kinda felt it was in bad taste to use "JBR's voice" as the "narrator" in the movie. The one part that really stood out was how they portrayed JR bringing JBR up the stairs -- that is exactly how I imagined it, from reading the many reports on it; and it dumbfounds me all the more that he would carry her like that. He knew she was dead when he awkwardly carried her like that; his two hands on her waist and holding her so far away from his body. He knew it, even if he says he didn't.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Thanks for the recap userid. I haven't seen it yet but I am interested in the part you describe. It bothered me that in the movie of PMPT they didn't depict John carrying her that way because it was a major behavioral clue.

What do you think about this recap that says the movie was trying to point BDI? I was surprised because of the Steve Thomas angle the movie was supposedly going for and I haven't heard anyone else interpreting it as BDI.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2016/11/05/who-killed-jonbenet-ramsey-review-lifetimes-movie-blames-burke/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Userid]

Thanks for the recap userid. I haven't seen it yet but I am interested in the part you describe. It bothered me that in the movie of PMPT they didn't depict John carrying her that way because it was a major behavioral clue.

What do you think about this recap that says the movie was trying to point BDI? I was surprised because of the Steve Thomas angle the movie was supposedly going for and I haven't heard anyone else interpreting it as BDI.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2016/11/05/who-killed-jonbenet-ramsey-review-lifetimes-movie-blames-burke/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm, very interesting D -- I personally interpreted the movie as pointing more to JR & PR. There is a scene where LA is visiting PR on her death bed, and she asks, "Is there anything you want to me?" And the camera pans to PR and she has this suspicious look on her face, and before she can utter a word, JR barges in and the scene ends. I'm sure that was a little over-dramatized of course, but it was scenes like that that made me believe the creators were pointing to the parents. Don't get me wrong though, they definitely didn't do BR any favors -- they paint him as very disconnected throughout the movie; more concerned with video games and his vacation than answering questions about his sister. They also include BR's flare=up with the soda when being interviewed by the child psychologist.

They paint the Whites, ST, and LA as saints. In the end, they really drive the point home to how ST and LA pretty much lost (more like, "sacrificed") everything for this case, in an admirable way (particularly ST). They paint the R's with heavy suspicion. That's my personal take on it, anyway.

 

[kanzz]

Thanks for the recap userid. I haven't seen it yet but I am interested in the part you describe. It bothered me that in the movie of PMPT they didn't depict John carrying her that way because it was a major behavioral clue.

What do you think about this recap that says the movie was trying to point BDI? I was surprised because of the Steve Thomas angle the movie was supposedly going for and I haven't heard anyone else interpreting it as BDI.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2016/11/05/who-killed-jonbenet-ramsey-review-lifetimes-movie-blames-burke/

Hmm, very interesting D -- I personally interpreted the movie as pointing more to JR & PR. There is a scene where LA is visiting PR on her death bed, and she asks, "Is there anything you want to me?" And the camera pans to PR and she has this suspicious look on her face, and before she can utter a word, JR barges in and the scene ends. I'm sure that was a little over-dramatized of course, but it was scenes like that that made me believe the creators were pointing to the parents. Don't get me wrong though, they definitely didn't do BR any favors -- they paint him as very disconnected throughout the movie; more concerned with video games and his vacation than answering questions about his sister. They also include BR's flare=up with the soda when being interviewed by the child psychologist.

They paint the Whites, ST, and LA as saints. In the end, they really drive the point home to how ST and LA pretty much lost (more like, "sacrificed") everything for this case, in an admirable way (particularly ST). They paint the R's with heavy suspicion. That's my personal take on it, anyway.

Interesting thoughts, you two. Maybe because I already have a preconceived notion, I thought the movie was leaning towards BDI but that it was purposefully leaving it open to the viewer's interpretation. There were many scenes that could have had people unfamiliar with the details of the case scratching their heads and still undecided in the end. I do think BR was definitely and appropriately portrayed as suspicious in his behavior.

One part I appreciated was how they treated LS. They showed how ST first looked forward to him coming on the case and then saw that he was tainted by his own need to prove BPD detectives wrong within 72 hours.

While I think it was somewhat eerie to have the voice-over of a little girl as JB, I didn't really find it creepy. It was a method for giving JB a voice in all of this, for keeping this about her.

 

[Userid]

^ Good point about the voice, Kanzz. I agree, they definitely left it open to interpretation. I really like how they portrayed ST and LA; and I too liked how they portrayed the LS vs. BPD dynamic.