Was Burke Involved? # 4

[kanzz]

Maybe Patsy's "she dies, she dies" was to give them an excuse not to call 911 until after 10, but John insisted anyway? If he didn't know what had happened, it seems a little reckless not to have weighed the threats seriously. I probably would have called the police as well, but I think I would have deliberated first given the specificity of the threats. Thinking it through for a little while probably wouldn't have changed the survival odds for the captive. On the other hand marked cars zooming up to house might have. It's hard to put myself fully in that situation, but I think I would have read the note several times, and then called 911 asking for advice as to how to proceed and making it very clear to them that the note insisted on no LE at all or my child would be beheaded.

The note essentially gave the Ramseys an excuse not call the police until it was clear the kidnapper was not going to call. So why not use the time to stall the police? They would have to get the money, cancel the flight, deal with Burke in the meantime. Maybe it was all too complicated? Or maybe you're right and John simply disregarded the contents of the note and insisted Patsy call, not knowing his daughter was lying in the cellar. Interesting that he had the distraught mother call instead of himself - a calmer, more collected, "cordial" person.

I guess there's no way to tell what time she might have actually shown him the note or how long he/they deliberated. He might have thought the RN was as hinky as everybody else does. I do think common sense would have prevailed, though; and that if I were in that situation I would have opted to call the police immediately. The sooner, the better.. regardless of all that BS in the note. People can't handle these situations on their own. I can envision the two of them arguing about making that call.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I guess there's no way to tell what time she might have actually shown him the note or how long he/they deliberated. He might have thought the RN was as hinky as everybody else does. I do think common sense would have prevailed, though; and that if I were in that situation I would have opted to call the police immediately. The sooner, the better.. regardless of all that BS in the note. People can't handle these situations on their own. I can envision the two of them arguing about making that call.

Still, it makes no sense for John not to want to tip the cops off to the fact that the note said several times that the note said they were absolutely not to contact the police or their daughter would be killed. "Beheaded" is tough word to miss, even if one is just scanning the note.

I believe they didn't do this because they knew she was already dead. Any deliberations may have revolved around whether they should pretend to follow the "advice" and wait to notify the police or whether they should call 911 at the latest time they would have been waking up to get ready for the flight.

If John was really finding out about the note around 5:50, why wouldn't Patsy use the extra time to fill him in? Why wouldn't John wait until 10 to call 911 to try to get the full story and figure out their options? And if John had just found out that his daughter was lying dead a floor below them, how could he have been so collected when the officer arrived?

Conversely, if John had really believed there was a kidnapping, I think he would have behaved more cautiously when notifying the police about the terms in the note. If he had just found out she was dead, I think he would have been much more upset when the first officers arrived. If he found out later that Patsy was involved in the cover up of the murder along with the terrible staging of his little girl's body, I find it hard to believe he would have stuck with her for 10 more years, even if it was just for appearances.

I admit I have more questions than answers, but for me at least, everything points to John having known about what happened for hours before the police were called. I think he and Patsy were stuck together as partners in crime.

 

[singularity]

Harmony...

If John was really finding out about the note around 5:50, why wouldn't Patsy use the extra time to fill him in? Why wouldn't John wait until 10 to call 911 to try to get the full story and figure out their options? And if John had just found out that his daughter was lying dead a floor below them, how could he have been so collected when the officer arrived?

I wish the cops had paid more attention to how things were when they walked in the door. Patsy answers it while Mr. Big CEO man is off in the distance in the kitchen area. It's a potential reveal of the dynamic of this couple, at least in the preceding hours. It symbolizes Patsy is in charge now and he is a minor, submissive player in the background. Patsy aint fu**ing around anymore....at least until she downs enough benzos, and the dynamic between the two reverts back and JOhn is the 'man on a mission' going all over the house while his wife sits comatose in a chair being 'consoled' by friends.

everything points to John having known about what happened for hours before the police were called.

Agreed. Even if he has no idea what the hell was going on, he certainly understood what was going on the moment he read the note.

I think he and Patsy were stuck together as partners in crime.

Of course. Sorta like....

"If I go down, you go down and don't dare attempt to grow a brain John...."

I fail to understand how Kolar can reconcile BDI All, with PR's fibers all over JonBenet, i.e. in the knotting, etc?

.

I don't understand it either. I like his book. He makes some great observations that have nothing to do with Burke which is why I suggest any non BDI members here to read it. He just loses me with going overboard with Burke. He wants to attribute everything no matter how big or small to Burke and it just doesn't pass the smell test.

The staging wasn't done simply to deflect from the R's, it was to mess up the available forensic evidence, and relocate the primary crime-scene.

You and I certainly agree on that. The primary scene is most likely her room, JAR"s room, or if the crime played out like a domestic dispute, the entire second floor(and other areas) is in play. The basement is the "catch all" for the horrors of that night.

While we cant rule out something going on down in the basement such as her being chased down there, its unlikely and the rooms up above suggest conflict of some sort.

As for the stick - they probably wouldn't have seen it. I suspect they didn't remove her clothing, just wrapped her in a blanket and hid the body.

Why would they not have seen it? Its not like it was hidden. Didn't remove her clothing? I don't think she was redressed after the fact either but majority of BDI members do and if one of them did redress her, they're going to see it. If the basement isn't the real crime scene and I don't believe it is, one of them had to move her down there.

The strangulation is an obvious cause of her death so they are certainly aware of its existence. If they don't know of the head bash and are also unaware of that as well, they must assume she was alive which is of course impossible.

 

[singularity]

I'm having trouble with imagining PR strangling her beloved child. Even from behind. I know the woman was screwed up but are we seriously supposed to think she could do something like this?

Absolutely. We are consistently told by BDI that children are capable of murder so let me say that mothers are capable of strangling and inflicting other barbaric acts on their children. It happens all the time.

But when you think of BR doing it all - it all makes perfect sense.

Interesting that you cant imagine a grown woman, one who clearly drinks and takes benzos I might add, and also takes her daughter to the bathroom which then causes screaming fits by the daughter actually strangling her but you can imagine a nine year old boy "doing it all".

 

[kanzz]

Still, it makes no sense for John not to want to tip the cops off to the fact that the note said several times that the note said they were absolutely not to contact the police or their daughter would be killed. "Beheaded" is tough word to miss, even if one is just scanning the note.

I believe they didn't do this because they knew she was already dead. Any deliberations may have revolved around whether they should pretend to follow the "advice" and wait to notify the police or whether they should call 911 at the latest time they would have been waking up to get ready for the flight.

If John was really finding out about the note around 5:50, why wouldn't Patsy use the extra time to fill him in? Why wouldn't John wait until 10 to call 911 to try to get the full story and figure out their options? And if John had just found out that his daughter was lying dead a floor below them, how could he have been so collected when the officer arrived?

Conversely, if John had really believed there was a kidnapping, I think he would have behaved more cautiously when notifying the police about the terms in the note. If he had just found out she was dead, I think he would have been much more upset when the first officers arrived. If he found out later that Patsy was involved in the cover up of the murder along with the terrible staging of his little girl's body, I find it hard to believe he would have stuck with her for 10 more years, even if it was just for appearances.

I admit I have more questions than answers, but for me at least, everything points to John having known about what happened for hours before the police were called. I think he and Patsy were stuck together as partners in crime.

BBM

And he may very well have known. Heck, I don't know. It's just a hunch based on his behavior that morning and the ridiculousness of the staging and hiding of the body plus the RN. I don't see him going along with all of that, but I could be wrong.
I'm not letting him off the hook by any stretch. He became complicit at some point for sure. And I think that's at least part of why he stayed with her. That, and the possibility that she might have threatened him with throwing him under the bus otherwise.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Absolutely. We are consistently told by BDI that children are capable of murder so let me say that mothers are capable of strangling and inflicting other barbaric acts on their children. It happens all the time.

It does happen.

Do you think John Ramsey knows the truth about the murder? If he does and Patsy is solely responsible for the murder and the horrific staging, do you think he would cover for her? Want to stay married to her? Want her to raise his youngest surviving child? What if she went "psycho" again?

 

[Miz Adventure]

Knowing what we know about PR I don't honestly think she would have been able not to let out a scream when she saw her beloved child lying dead - garrotted (by BR). I don't think she would have had the fortitude to act alone in the 'staging' - she would have needed JR's help - for physical and emotional support. Together they did what they had to do in order to save their son and themselves.

PR wrote the note and JR probably approved it as she was writing it. If JBR's body wasn't already in the basement by this time, then he carried her down there.

I think PR would have been too hysterical to think clearly. JR was the mastermind behind the 'plan' to make it look like an intruder had been in the house and murdered their daughter.

He knew PR (and BR) would crack under intense questioning and he knew he had to get the family out of the house and out of the state ASAP before the police started asking awkward questions. He also knew he needed to 'lawyer-up' - fast!

 

[HarmonyE.]

Knowing what we know about PR I don't honestly think she would have been able not to let out a scream when she saw her beloved child lying dead - garrotted (by BR). I don't think she would have had the fortitude to act alone in the 'staging' - she would have needed JR's help - for physical and emotional support. Together they did what they had to do in order to save their son and themselves.

PR wrote the note and JR probably approved it as she was writing it. If JBR's body wasn't already in the basement by this time, then he carried her down there.

I think PR would have been too hysterical to think clearly. JR was the mastermind behind the 'plan' to make it look like an intruder had been in the house and murdered their daughter.

He knew PR (and BR) would crack under intense questioning and he knew he had to get the family out of the house and out of the state ASAP before the police started asking awkward questions. He also knew he needed to 'lawyer-up' - fast!

This is basically where I land. Could Patsy have done it? Yes, but I can’t see John covering for her. They were hardly lovebirds; it seemed more of a business relationship. If she was that crazy, she needed help. Why would he want her around his surviving child when he’d already lost two? And then there is the staging question. If John had been completely in the dark until after it was done, I can’t see much benefit for him to cover for her after that craziness. Granted, it ended up working, but there was absolutely no guarantee the staging would throw the cops off. Indeed, had LE been competent and followed appropriate protocol, the murderer would have been discovered pretty easily. The Ramseys benefited from both their wealth and a ton of luck.

I know some people think John went along because Patsy would rat him out as a child molester, but there is no evidence to support this allegation against him. Plus, kids with both a psycho murderous mother and a pedophile father? Possible? yes, but it seems a stretch with no known prior histories of abuse by either parent.

If John found out from an hysterical Patsy at 1 am that she’d somehow badly injured his daughter, would he have agreed to staging the rest of the scene rather than call 911 for help? Again, the staging was incredibly risky. If John played no role in the head injury, why would he decide to cover for his crazy wife by getting so deeply and physically involved in the murder of his daughter?

If John was the murderer, I think Patsy would have impulsively and instinctively turned on him in a New York minute.

In the absence of any other information and considering there was no intruder, this would seem to leave only a few possibilities. 1) Burke grievously wounded his sister, and one of his parents staged everything else (with Patsy the obvious author of the crazy RN). 2) Burke grievously wounded his sister, and both parents collaborated in the staging, including the garroting, to protect him. They surely didn’t know that night he couldn’t be prosecuted at all (many states will do some level of prosecution for child murderers over the age of reason which is usually age 7) and even if they did, the horror of having their son labeled a murderer may have been too much for them. 3) Burke did it all ( or most of it ) and Patsy wrote the note as a cover, or 4) Burke did it all (or most of it) and both parents played a role in helping cover, with Patsy writing the note and John handling other details such as possibly moving the body into the remote – and cool – cellar room.

I have no idea which scenario is the more accurate one. But I wish we had access to the information the Grand Jury had.

 

[UKGuy]

HarmonyE,

if the case is PDI and JR has been requested to collude with Patsy, does he know Patsy whacked JonBenet on the head?

Why does JR not demand she dial for medical assistance just like she phoned the next morning for the police?

Similarly if the case is JDI and he has whacked JonBenet, why does she not rush to dial 911 for medical assistance?

If, as I suspect, the case is mostly BDI then both parents know phoning for medical assistance will fracture their remaining family.

It appears to me BR did most of it, and the parents cleaned up in parts, moved her body to the basement, and Patsy apparently asphyxiated her as her fibers are all over the ligature knotting?

The GJ corroborates this view by accusing a third party of sexually assaulting and murdering JonBenet.

The third party is patently neither parent as they were charged with neglect and assisting an offender.

.

 

[Ambitioned]

This is basically where I land. Could Patsy have done it? Yes, but I can’t see John covering for her. They were hardly lovebirds; it seemed more of a business relationship.

She might though. Remember she lied for him when this girl came over. It's possible she kept dangling that over his head. "I lied for you now it's your turn John!!!"

10 her what had happened, I said I had this
11 girlfriend that was crazy and I just didn't want
12 it to -- and so I said I was going to stay
13 there that night and sleep on the couch, because
14 I didn't want to be in my apartment and we were
15 just talking and knock, knock, knock on the
16 door, and -- actually I think I was going to
17 leave. There was a knock on the door, and I was
18 literally behind the door, Patsy opened the
19 door, it's Gloria, and she said I was waiting
20 for John, I want to come in, use your phone and
21 Patsy, "oh, our phone is out of order, we just
22 moved in."
23 And here I was standing behind the
24 door, I was -- then she just was -- and from
25 that moment -- first of all, from that moment
1 on, Gloria left me alone and I also realized how
2 much, what a significant person Patsy was.
3 Because here she was a 23-year-old, just
4 standing there. So that was kind of the
5 breaking point.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm having trouble with imagining PR strangling her beloved child. Even from behind. I know the woman was screwed up but are we seriously supposed to think she could do something like this?

Except it would work the same way as with BDI: she didn't KNOW JB was still alive.

They had to invent an "intruder" - one who kidnapped their daughter. Patsy sat down at the kitchen counter, got out her notepad and pen and began to write........

No argument!

 

[BBB167893]

She might though. Remember she lied for him when this girl came over. It's possible she kept dangling that over his head. "I lied for you now it's your turn John!!!"

10 her what had happened, I said I had this
11 girlfriend that was crazy and I just didn't want
12 it to -- and so I said I was going to stay
13 there that night and sleep on the couch, because
14 I didn't want to be in my apartment and we were
15 just talking and knock, knock, knock on the
16 door, and -- actually I think I was going to
17 leave. There was a knock on the door, and I was
18 literally behind the door, Patsy opened the
19 door, it's Gloria, and she said I was waiting
20 for John, I want to come in, use your phone and
21 Patsy, "oh, our phone is out of order, we just
22 moved in."
23 And here I was standing behind the
24 door, I was -- then she just was -- and from
25 that moment -- first of all, from that moment
1 on, Gloria left me alone and I also realized how
2 much, what a significant person Patsy was.
3 Because here she was a 23-year-old, just
4 standing there. So that was kind of the
5 breaking point.

Sure, millionaire husbands don't come along every day you know!

 

[Rott Mom]

Did anyone find it weird when BR was interviewed barefoot - and he kept picking at his feet? He's curled up in the chair and
without shoes. My three-year-old niece wouldn't act like that.

 

[kanzz]

Did anyone find it weird when BR was interviewed barefoot - and he kept picking at his feet? He's curled up in the chair and
without shoes. My three-year-old niece wouldn't act like that.

Yes. Absolutely. I find everything about him weird. And inappropriate. Then and now.

 

[BBB167893]

Did anyone find it weird when BR was interviewed barefoot - and he kept picking at his feet? He's curled up in the chair and
without shoes. My three-year-old niece wouldn't act like that.

I did notice that. Nobody's commented on it (that I know of) until now. Very weird.

 

[Rott Mom]

Yes. Absolutely. I find everything about him weird. And inappropriate. Then and now.

Me too! I couldn't believe DP deemed him to be "socially awkward". Give me a break.

 

[Miz Adventure]

He's still clutching his comfort blanket. It looks rather like the one that covered JBR doesn't it?

If he wins this latest lawsuit he'll never have to work, just go on suing people, same as his parents did.

I'm not sure that he ever had worked though, regardless of what his dad says. A job in the 'hi-tech- industry' could simply mean he's in charge of the tea-bags.

JR recently boasted "he's got an IRA and a 401 - and he did it all by himself!" Wow!

Aren't those things some kind of insurance policies? I'm English so don't really know what they are but it looks as though you can BUY them if you have enough money.

I could well be wrong, and I'm sure somebody will put me right about that.

Even if he didn't do it, the killing of his sister has turned into a nice little earner.

 

[Ambitioned]

He's still clutching his comfort blanket. It looks rather like the one that covered JBR doesn't it?

It does. Stuck in adolescent limbo?

I'm not sure that he ever had worked though, regardless of what his dad says. A job in the 'hi-tech- industry' could simply mean he's in charge of the tea-bags.

And pineapple!

Actually I can't find it now but there was a vid his coworkers recorded that showed him at work. But most of the time he was just laughing and being giddy. I'll try to find it unless someone beats me to it.

JR recently boasted "he's got an IRA and a 401 - and he did it all by himself!" Wow!

Most likely Woody helped him set them up. A 401k is a retirement savings plan sponsored by an employer. It lets workers save and invest a piece of their paycheck before taxes are taken out.

Even if he didn't do it, the killing of his sister has turned into a nice little earner.

Yep. Even in her death they're picking her bones.

 

[Ambitioned]

Found it:

[video=youtube;NvnQfWawGBk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvnQfWawGBk[/video]

He is mostly toward the back not interacting with anyone. Of course this doesn't mean he worked there consistently. The owner probably had everyone come in while they were shooting the video, even the people who normally work from home. Just a guess!

 

[Ambitioned]

I also have these for the truly curious

https://github.com/birk5437?tab=overview&from=2016-07-01&to=2016-07-31&utf8=✓

https://vimeo.com/user17229323/videos

http://stackoverflow.com/users/4950915/birk5437

[h=2]birk5437[/h]
Apparently, this user prefers to keep an air of mystery about them.

No kidding!