Was Burke involved?

[otg]

(s&bbm)

Like I've stated countless times. He was always on my radar, not often did I post my suspicions here. I'm not married to any particular theory... But BDI is a very valid theory. IMO

Being “married to any particular theory” is a good analogy. While I’m still not “married” to a theory, I have to admit that I’ve been “cohabitating” with this one for a long time (long enough probably to establish a common-law marriage in most states). And like a marriage, I’ve had to make adjustments over time (but not so many yet that I've had to consider a divorce ).

 

[otg]

Whoever moved, staged and strangled JB had considerable upper body strength.

A five year old being strangled will kick and struggle. Even an angry toddler can be too much for some mothers to subdue let alone a healthy 5 year old.

Burke was simply not physically capable of moving or throttling JB.

How do you know JonBenet was moved?
What “proof” is there of that?
How do you know she kicked and struggled?
How do you know what anyone is physically capable of doing?

You forget that Burke loves his parents and is quite possibly still protecting them.

I know from my own experience that the memory is a tricky thing. you can literally "block" unpleasant memories entirely.

The only way I know my mother beat me right up to teenage years is because the neighbours told me. i cant remember a thing.

Sapphire, I'm sorry for whatever unpleasant things happened to you in your childhood. I hesitate to even try and discuss something on a personal level, but since you have mentioned things like this several times (as I recall), I’m curious whether the neighbors who were aware of what was going on ever reported it to the authorities. Was anyone else in the family aware of it, and why didn't they report it if they knew?

 

[otg]

I think the several pathologists who examined the autopsy report totally agree with you. In fact, there are several who believed she was first strangled with the garrote and she put up quite a fight and her killer was engaging in an auto-erotic fantasy. Not the handiwork of a 9-year-old. Her massive skull fracture was inflicted as she was near death but it required some force.

JMO

Who are "the several pathologists who examined the autopsy report” who have stated an opinion about Burke‘s strength? The other circumstances to which you refer (“auto-erotic fantasy” and head blow after the strangulation) were speculated by only ONE (Dr. Cyril Wecht), who had access to the same information you and I both have.

 

[redheadedgal]

Playing doctor might be rather common, but research suggests sibling sexual abuse/molestation is not nearly common.

"...2%-4% of people have been sexually victimized by a sibling as the sexual contact involved some degree of forced or coercive activity." http://www.pandys.org/articles/siblingsexualabuse.html

it is usually helpful to use current statistics, not those from decades ago ^^^. i believe the standard is to not include stats that are more than 10 years old.

much more current research shows that:

It is also believed that sexual abuse of minors occurs more often at the hands of a sibling or other minor than at the hands of a parent or other adult. (2005)

http://www.outofthefog.net/Relationships/SiblingAbuse.html

The studies that do present prevalence data put sibling sexual abuse as more common than other forms of intra-familial sexual abuse (Monahan, 2010; Pratt et al., 2010; Rowntree, 2007; Thompson, 2009). Caffaro and Conn-Caffaro (2005) estimated that sibling sexual abuse occurred "three to five times as often as the most frequently cited form" (p. 609), father to daughter child abuse.

http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/researchsummary/ressum3/rs3d.html

The prevalence of sibling sexual abuse is not known, but it is believed to be the most common form of intra-familial sexual abuse, occurring three to five times more often than father-to-daughter sexual abuse (Ballantine 2012: 56, Stathopoulos 2012: 8). In research on over 13,000 sibling abuse incidents reported to the police in the United States, 71 per cent of victims were female, and 92 per cent of offenders were male. The most common dyad was brothers abusing sisters, but 25 per cent were brothers abusing brothers (Krienert and Walsh 2011).

www.griffith.edu.au/__data/.../493526/Sibling-Sexual-violence-paper-FINAL-1-February-2013.pdf

 

[redheadedgal]

I believe Burke was responsible for the actions that caused JonBenet’s death. There. I’ve said it. For years it was hard to say without most other posters jumping down my throat for even writing the suggestion, or so much as making an implication of such. But since Kolar's book, a lot of the gaps in the public's perception have been filled in, and the subject can at least be openly discussed -- for the most part.

Still, I usually try to avoid saying it unless it’s brought up by someone else who asks a question that makes me feel compelled to answer. I do try to dance around it by referring to the person who tied the ligature, sexually assaulted her, or struck the head blow by saying “he/she”, or “the assailant”, or some other such generic term referring to the person when talking about the evidence because no one here can be certain about it (as I am not either). And I would much rather discuss the evidence and let readers and posters decide for themselves who they think it implicates.

But I have to say that no one here keeps the BDI theory alive more than those who try to dispute it. Whenever the discussion gets “hot” about this subject (as it did recently), I get messages or emails from members here who either don’t post much, or who in some cases have never posted, saying they agree, or that they have just realized it may be true because of what was said by me or others who joined in on the discussion. So I realize that when we discuss this with someone who tries to dispute the possibility, it most likely won’t change that person’s mind -- but it will lead others to realize that this might be the reason JonBenet needlessly died. Regardless of who physically did the actions that caused her death that night, (as I’ve said before) I still think the ultimate responsibility for the circumstances that caused it to happen lies at the feet of both John and Patsy Ramsey. But that too is just my humble opinion. I wish I was wrong, but I don’t think I am about that.

So I say, here and now, thank you to those who like to try and dispel BDI theories, because you are helping to convince others of just the opposite of what you think. If enough of the public realizes the possible involvement of this person (who was a mere child himself at the time, and not legally or morally responsible for his actions), more pressure may come for him to answer questions from the investigators who would like to clear up this blemish on the reputation of their community. Maybe because of our discussions someone who works with him will read something one day and say to him while standing at the company coffee pot, “You know, there are a lot of people who think you were involved with your sister’s death.” Maybe someone will say something to John one day that makes him feel compelled to say something more than that it’s all “just more drama.” And if one of them does come forward to actually speak with investigators (although not likely), perhaps those who have carried the torch of “justice” for JonBenet for so long will get some real answers -- even (and especially) if the answers point to someone else.

Thanks again for all the help,

(otg)

a thanks wasn't enough !! awesome !!

ever since reading here @ WS, i've believed that burke bashed his sister on the head, and mom covered it up.

 

[otg]

Stats are useless as evidence.

I agree with you on that. My dad always liked to say, “Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure.” The statistics that have been posted here (on both sides of the coin) don’t prove anything in this case. But they do answer the possibility/likelihood of something like this happening that has been questioned by some.


(bbm)

Dr. Wecht discusses his findings and the opinions of other specialists in his books. None of them concluded nine-year-old Burke was capable of carrying out the auto-erotic fantasy strangulation and bludgeoning of his young sister that was revealed in the autopsy.

Mortal Evidence by Wecht and
Who Killed Jonbenet Ramsey?
by Charles Bosworth (Author), Cyril H. Wecht (Author)

Dr. Wecht's opinion was the head blow came last, shortly before death but it really doesn't matter.

I like Dr. Wecht. But I think he was wrong on some of his opinions about this. Sorry I haven’t read his book, but to my knowledge he’s the only one speaking in public who believes the “erotic (not “auto-&#8221 asphyxiation” theory -- or that the head blow was delivered after the strangulation. But even if he had a dozen other “specialists” agree with him, it doesn’t mean that he’s right. None of this means I’m right either. But to deny the possibility of that which you don’t like is no way to look at this tragedy and try to figure out what happened.

As to the bbm, you're saying that the autopsy "revealed" that there was an "auto-erotic fantasy strangulation"? (I don't think so.) To assume Wecht's theory is correct, claim it is revealed in the autopsy, and then state that a 9 year-old is incapable of it is just faulty logic. I think anyone should be able to see that without my having to explain why.

I've not found any expert opinion that has concluded the massive damage inflicted on the little girl was by 9-year-old child.

Maybe that’s why this is still an open case.

 

[redheadedgal]

Her massive skull fracture was inflicted as she was near death but it required some force.

None of them concluded nine-year-old Burke was capable of... bludgeoning of his young sister that was revealed in the autopsy.

I've not found any expert opinion that has concluded the massive damage inflicted on the little girl was by 9-year-old child.

is it really necessary for me to once again post the link to the story from MI a few years ago where a 7 yr old child killed another 7 yr old child with a child-sized golf club whack to the head?

BR was bigger and heavier than a 7 yr old, JB was younger and smaller than a 7 yr old, and JR had adult sized (read larger and heavier) clubs.

 

[Mama2JML]

it is usually helpful to use current statistics, not those from decades ago ^^^. i believe the standard is to not include stats that are more than 10 years old.

I agree. You might wish to relay this message to the poster that originally cited the data. My post was in response to questions re: commonality & this specific data.

 

[BOESP]

Mama (you softy, you), I can only speak for myself, but I’ve never laid blame on anyone but the Ramsey parents for the situation I feel they created. And even at that, I can’t be too hard on them because I don’t think either one of them ever thought the situation would get so out of control that something like this would happen. I believe they loved both (all) their children, and like any parent will say (as I have said to my own), I think they would “do anything in the world to protect them.” But beyond that blame I place on John and Patsy, I’ve only expressed my opinion of what the evidence tells me. It tells you (and others) something else. I’m fine with that. This isn’t a court of law where we’re trying to prove a position. We’re only expressing our opinions. If you want to say that’s rumor, speculation, and gossip, so be it -- we all here are guilty because that’s what we’re each doing. No one here is able to prove anything with the information we have. That’s a job for lawyers and none of us is being paid for billable hours (at least, I'm not).

BBM. I'm confused by what you said because the Grand Jury didn't believe John or Patsy did all they could have done to prevent the death of JonBenet.

What am I missing?:blowkiss:

 

[SapphireSteel]

is it really necessary for me to once again post the link to the story from MI a few years ago where a 7 yr old child killed another 7 yr old child with a child-sized golf club whack to the head?

BR was bigger and heavier than a 7 yr old, JB was younger and smaller than a 7 yr old, and JR had adult sized (read larger and heavier) clubs.

In the case you quote, what did the parents do?

Finish the younger child off? Stage a ransom note? Move the body?

[modsnip]

How did B get an exhausted JB past the parents?

What EXACTLY is the BDI theory?

How does it flow?

Some say he molested her in her bedroom.

Questions i have -

Where did he strangle her? In the bedroom, silently?

Then, how did he get her into the basement?

B may have been able to cause the head blow but she was already dead or dying when that occurred.

So, did he kill her in the basement?

Possibly, but how did he get her down there?

I suffered a lot of abuse from my brothers, which meant i was afraid if them. Wild horses would be required to get me in a dark basement at midnight with either one. We also KNOW JB was frightened of the basement and would not go down there willingly so some force would be required, which is what I mean by B being "physically incapable". He was.

The FBI advised Boulder PD that the perp would be an adult residingin that house. Molestation, murder and elaborate staging are not a child's crime!

Children would run and hide if they did something wrong, not carry on like a criminal mastermind.

Burke was also questioned by experts, without revealing a thing - either HE DIDNT KNOW or he was a 9 yr old able to fool everyone from Child Counsellors to hard old detectives to a Grand Jury.

What a remarkable child! To think he appeared to be a normal boy, yet find out he is responsible for the Crime of the Century [modsnip]

[modsnip]

 

[Anti-K]

Kolar appears to be an honorable, intelligent, and courageous man. And I believe you’ve gone one better on the continuum of “courageous” putting your theory of BDI out there. Further, I pray you are correct that somehow someday someone may speak more about what they know. ST said that he hoped a chance arrow would hit a target. Quoting Cohen, it’s been my hope a crack in the iron-clad defense would allow “light” to illuminate more in this case. You’ve basically said, wait a minute, look here. Yours is a theory which answers much, and I’m personally glad you said it the way you did. Bravo.

Recently listened to the December podcast of Kolar on “Generation Why” and thought that this quote from the host was interesting and pertinent: “Anyone who is still intrigued by this case, there are still clues out there. So I don’t think people should mark this one off as 'secretly solved' or that it 'will never be solved'; I think there is still a lot of intriguing evidence out there.
Kolar: “ I agree.”

Lou Reed, Neil Young, and now I see some appreciation for Leonard Cohen on the forum. I might disagree with RDI on almost everything else as far as this case goes, but some of you guys have good taste in music.

...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

A child being strangled will certainly NOT struggle if the child being strangled is already unconscious from a blow to the head. The coroner attested to the FACT that the ligature was circumferential, indicating NO movement up or down. The marks on her neck were PROVED to be petechia, and not scratch marks (which some people who refuse to read or view the autopsy photos still believe). The tape on her lips showed no evidence of a struggle or pressure from her tongue. She was unconscious or dead when that was placed as well. Nearly every forensic expert who studied this case agreed that the head bash came first. After that, JB was instantly unconscious- she never struggled against anything ever again.

I agree with most everything you said here. I’m not sure if “every forensic expert who studied this case agreed that the head bash came first.” I think the head blow came first, but I’m almost on the fence.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

thankyou, frigga, for a great post. One of the reasons the tv series “breaking bad” was so incredible, imo, is that it presented the many sides of our humanity. I liked walter white’s desire to protect his family after being diagnosed with cancer; he adored his wife and children. But early on, one could sometimes catch glimpses of something else in him, the dark edges which allowed him to make choices that harmed or caused the death of others. No one can diagnose the ‘complexities’ of the human heart. This is a case that certainly proves that.

As far as br, jury still out. Mho.

...

Ak

 

[Anti-K]

Mama (you softy, you), I can only speak for myself, but I’ve never laid blame on anyone but the Ramsey parents for the situation I feel they created. And even at that, I can’t be too hard on them because I don’t think either one of them ever thought the situation would get so out of control that something like this would happen. I believe they loved both (all) their children, and like any parent will say (as I have said to my own), I think they would “do anything in the world to protect them.” But beyond that blame I place on John and Patsy, I’ve only expressed my opinion of what the evidence tells me. It tells you (and others) something else. I’m fine with that. This isn’t a court of law where we’re trying to prove a position. We’re only expressing our opinions. If you want to say that’s rumor, speculation, and gossip, so be it -- we all here are guilty because that’s what we’re each doing. No one here is able to prove anything with the information we have. That’s a job for lawyers and none of us is being paid for billable hours (at least, I'm not).

It’s not based on “age and scrawniness.” It’s based on lack of evidence.
...

AK

 

[midwest mama]

I can't follow the first part of your comment??? Sorry :blushing:

As for the rest....I'm not so sure about them garnering public empathy if BDI, and they told the truth. I used as an example the other day Adam Lanza. I know it's not the same, but in certain ways it is. What is similar that if BR was exposed, many in the public would have blamed Patsy, much like how they blamed Adam Lanza's mother. She would have been forever known as the "that women who raised that boy who brutally killed his sister." People would have questioned her, and asked what type of horrible mother she was to have produced such a killer.

The other day Adam Lanza's dad was interviewed by the New Yorker. He commented that he and his son seriously considered changing their last name b/c of the negative connotation, and they were even living with Adam for the last few years of his life.

As for a respectable future, it's true that they have had to live with some negativity, but IMO, most reports by the media portray them as victims, not only by the "intruder" but also by LE. Considering they could have faced a life time in prison, or BR could have been taken away from them, the fared ok....much better than JonBenet did.

Both of the Rs were ready to be arrested when the GJ was finished. Granted they may have assumed they would never see the inside of a court room. But could they be 100% sure they would never have to face the death penalty if they had been arrested and found guilty in JB'S death?

Wouldn't it just seem more reasonable to believe the R's would very quickly speak to authorities and make what ever behind the scenes plea bargains they would have to by disclosing BR's involvement, if they could, to assure them of no chance for punishment?

 

[Anti-K]

How do you know JonBenet was moved?
What “proof” is there of that?
How do you know she kicked and struggled?
How do you know what anyone is physically capable of doing?


Sapphire, I'm sorry for whatever unpleasant things happened to you in your childhood. I hesitate to even try and discuss something on a personal level, but since you have mentioned things like this several times (as I recall), I’m curious whether the neighbors who were aware of what was going on ever reported it to the authorities. Was anyone else in the family aware of it, and why didn't they report it if they knew?

“How do you know Jonbenet was moved,” and, “What “proof” is there of that” are essentially the same question. Why are you even asking this? Aren’t you the same guy who not long ago said – I paraphrase – that the victim’s bladder emptied after death and that the stain on the carpet outside of the WC door was indeed urine? Are you now suggesting that she walked – after that death – into the WC all on her own?

I, too, am curious how anyone would know if she “kicked and struggled.”

But, how do we know what anyone is physically capable of? We don’t, but we can make guesstimates based on what is known about the person in question.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I agree with you on that. My dad always liked to say, “Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure.” The statistics that have been posted here (on both sides of the coin) don’t prove anything in this case. But they do answer the possibility/likelihood of something like this happening that has been questioned by some.


(bbm)I like Dr. Wecht. But I think he was wrong on some of his opinions about this. Sorry I haven’t read his book, but to my knowledge he’s the only one speaking in public who believes the “erotic (not “auto-”) asphyxiation” theory -- or that the head blow was delivered after the strangulation. But even if he had a dozen other “specialists” agree with him, it doesn’t mean that he’s right. None of this means I’m right either. But to deny the possibility of that which you don’t like is no way to look at this tragedy and try to figure out what happened.

As to the bbm, you're saying that the autopsy "revealed" that there was an "auto-erotic fantasy strangulation"? (I don't think so.) To assume Wecht's theory is correct, claim it is revealed in the autopsy, and then state that a 9 year-old is incapable of it is just faulty logic. I think anyone should be able to see that without my having to explain why.


Maybe that’s why this is still an open case.

In general, statistics only provide a starting point for investigation.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

There is no evidence for BDI. None. There is only speculation. Much – not all – of this speculation is based on some – or, all – of the following premises:

There was no intruder.
The parents together would not murder (etc.) their own daughter.
One parent would not cover for the other if the other were guilty.
Both parents would commit this crime to cover for their son.

The first and last premise are problematic and not supported by the evidence, but, this is a minor complaint because BDI is not based on evidence. Because of this FACT, I think it is senseless to ask BDIs for evidence.
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

Gently correct me if I am wrong about some stuff.

It's not all that difficult to play baseball. The difficulty comes with playing it well.

Correct. BR also swam for his high school's swim team while maintaining a B+ average. Swimming is an exhilarating sport. Think of 9 time Olympic medal Mark Spitz. Mark was born in 1950 and named one of the six top greatest Olympic winners.

http://www.markspitzusa.com/biography.html

Stats are useless as evidence. Dr. Wecht discusses his findings and the opinions of other specialists in his books. None of them concluded nine-year-old Burke was capable of carrying out the auto-erotic fantasy strangulation and bludgeoning of his young sister that was revealed in the autopsy.

Mortal Evidence by Wecht and
Who Killed Jonbenet Ramsey?
by Charles Bosworth (Author), Cyril H. Wecht (Author)

Exactly. Because BR did not do it. IMHO

In an attempt to identify each of the four pictures in the two sets L to R:

1) This photo shows the white hand rail that leads downstairs to the first floor as if you were standing in the doorway of JARs bdrm.
If you turned to face right, at the cuckoo clock, the sink, m/o, the iron and ironing board, stackable washer and dryer and playroom are located in this area. Recently, for the holidays, PR had moved all but the tallest of JBRs trophies into this area called the playroom (not pictured). The tallest one(s) stayed in JBRs bdrm.
The spiral stairs PR used are not shown in photo.
Whose open door do we see in the far distance? JBRs?

2) Very nice scenic view out of outdoors. Whose garden bath was this? Not at all similar to the bathroom in the hellhole basement.

3) On the narrow table, there appears to be a red scarf, JRs black daytimer, and a pad on the catch-all narrow table. The glass door visible in the photo has a large wreath covering it. Is this the door by the spiral staircase where John Fernie went to and read the RN? Surely not, else he could not read the RN without stooping below the wreath which he did not claim doing.

4) In this CS photo, the small Christmas tree is set up at the foot of the twin burl wood bed to JonBenet's own bed with pink duvet. PR decorated the Christmas tree with the color purple. The open door leads to JBRs bathroom.

Not seen just to the right of the bathroom door in the same photo, was an adjacent door, that opened to reveal JBRs closet. JBR had a small tv and vcr inside this closet. VCR tapes are spilled in the CS pics in the playroom and JARs room. JBR enjoyed Shirley Temple movies. Who does not recall her sexy little innocence? I adore ST to this day. RIP STB The pillowcase at the foot of JBRs twin bed had red stains. Her pink Barbie nightgown had red stains.

The last thing JonBenet ate prior to TOD was pineapple. That simple pineapple snack clearly ties JBR into the scene at the table where the happiness of pineapple was served with the lovely over sized silver spoon. But, then again,

Her mother and her brother are tied to the pineapple snack by fingerprints and with tDNA to the pink Barbie gown, the nightgown with red stains, that is found near the body or wrapped in the blanket w/ her. JBRs white blanket had a hair from her mother, so did the tape that was on her mouth.

White nylon cord fibers gathered from JBRs bed sheets from the cord that was used to strangle JBR; unless the killer was sly as a fox, and they were sly as proven by no one ever going to jail for the crimes against this 6yowf, tells me the first assault occurred in her bed. Gently. Involving the cord. Perhaps more of a luring activity. The cunning action begins innocently in her bed with the cord.

Before leaving this floor, the kidnapper gets lucky and finds the hidden pocketknife to cut the cord with while in the basement hellhole. And knows just where to locate a long paintbrush. And size 12 panties. And a ransom note.

OMO

 

[Tawny]

I agree. You might wish to relay this message to the poster that originally cited the data. My post was in response to questions re: commonality & this specific data.

No need to "relay" it to me since I can read her post just as easily as you did. However, you may have missed the rest that backed up my "too old" stats with more current information.