weekend discussion: discuss the trial here #154

[FrayedKnot]

I think your experience shouldn't be the standard by which you judge whether or not something is racist.

I think white people, Asian people, Jewish people, Native American people, Latino people ... let's just say the whole world ... make excuses for their behavior at some time or another but to paint a brush over an entire race based upon one or two experiences is irresponsible.

I have been called the "N" word more times than I can count by white people. Do I think white people as a group are racist? No, I think the white people who called me the "N" word are racist. If I had the attitude that all white people are racist based upon the actions of a handful of people, I'd be as dumb as the people who called me names.

I take everyone as they come no matter what experience I've had with any particular group. I know when something is racist. Believe me. I don't go looking for it, I don't blame my behavior on it and I don't ever expect it. But when I do find it, I call it and you'd better be wearing protective padding when I do.

That's all I'm going to say on this topic on this day.

Respectfully, she wasn't saying she thought someone else was racist, she said SHE was called a racist by her neighbor for report child neglect. The mother couldn't accept that she was reported for locking her children out of the house and so she called the reporting party a racist.

I am sorry you have been called names. I find name-calling a crutch of ignorant people and it's just not okay.

Also, not really the thread for this. . Sorry for the OT.

 

[kaRN]

Making unsupportable claimsis a waste of time. Can you back up what you're saying or is it just a rant against mental health professionals? The tests are empirically validated and she is beyond qualified to interpret them. In fact, a person is probably most knowledgeable on these applications soon after graduation, as opposed to 10 years down the line. She added an amazing dimension of common sense and objectivity which were sorely missing. Anyone thinking she's under-qualified has absolutely no clue what it takes to get where she is.

:tyou:

 

[chijojo]

<snipped>
Originally Posted by sacrablue
The one issue that troubles me about this case is JA was understood by her lover Travis and her friends as being different. She did things that were not normal. Yet she was used as a three hole wonder.
Who is responsible here? Did Travis ever meet JA's parents? Was anyone ever contacted when JA's behavior became symptomatic? JA was a perfect storm ready to erupt having a relationship go terribly wrong.
To sit back after the fact and call her a monster and all the names I have heard doesn't solve this problem.

BBM
Are you suggesting the responsibility falls on Travis for getting himself murdered?

 

[YESorNO]

Innocent defendants deserve advocates.

Guilty defendants should so plead.

The whole notion of defense counsel burying its head in the sand, instructing defendants NOT to tell them certain things...

The practice is, by definition, legally-sanctioned -- even court-ordered -- deception.

And folks wonder how juries are hoodwinked and justice is perverted.

:rocker:

 

[kscornfed]

But she has to show the jury,she believes in her client.I am sure JW deep inside knows just what JA is capable of!

i don't even think it's deep down. she knows what she did.

 

[Goodanuff]

Sorry to ask this again, but could someone guide me where in the testimony I might find the ring and or Christmas tree "sleepover",Thanks in advance.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The one issue that troubles me about this case is JA was understood by her lover Travis and her friends as being different. She did things that were not normal. Yet she was used as a three hole wonder.
Who is responsible here? Did Travis ever meet JA's parents? Was anyone ever contacted when JA's behavior became symptomatic? JA was a perfect storm ready to erupt having a relationship go terribly wrong.
To sit back after the fact and call her a monster and all the names I have heard doesn't solve this problem.

Jodi is the one responsible that is for sure, but I agree that labelling just doesn't help. I don't think that in order to have compassion for Travis and to see that he is a complete victim means you have to turn off your ability to have compassion for Jodi too, and try and see things from her side. Clearly she has not helped, she's calling him a pedophile and an abuser in open court FGS which is just, well, I mean it makes me wild because its just such slander!

Someone did try and contact her mother, I have a feeling it was Travis or one of his friends, her mother said 'he' when describing the person who called, and really it was a family problem, but Jodi made it very difficult for her family to get involved too. She really is her own worst enemy in so many ways .. because she is so severely disturbed IMO.

But yes, I want to go beyond the negative feelings I have towards her and try and have an understanding of her side of the experience. She is disturbed and damaged, was friendless and untreated. I don't believe that anyone on this planet is pure evil or pure goodness .. that is just not my experience of human nature.

 

[kaRN]

Everyone who graduates from medical school is called "Doctor." But there's huge difference between #1 and #297. Dr. D was obviously closer to #1 than #297. ALV was more like #296.

Actually ALV only has a Masters degree. ALV takes orders from Dr #297 :floorlaugh:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

um.. This says court on monday!!!! Maybe that was what the hearing or meeting was about?

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.g...rtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CR2008-031021

 

[sacrablue]

No one in Jodi's former life had ever met Travis AFAIK. Her parents said they had never met him and really didn't know a lot about him. I'm not sure what you were expecting Travis or his friends to do in this situation. Jodi is a grown adult and is solely responsible for her actions. It isn't everyone else's job to make sure she doesn't make a decision to brutally end someone's life. And just because she exhibited signs of mental illness, does not mean she is forced to brutally murder another human being. She did that of her own volition.

Here is where I draw the line. If I meet someone like JA and notice strange behavior I would stop all sexual relations at once. I would contact her family at once I don't care how old she is or was. Just because ther are a grown adult doesn't always mean their brain and thoughts are normal.
Travis's friends seem to have noticed this from the start but Travis continued this deadly relationship. Could things have been too good to stop? Was their a concern stopping the relationship cold turkey was going to be a potential problem? Sure sounds like it to me.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

OK .. now this might be a little controversial, but that's fine. I have a little bit of an issue with how Jodi's behaviour was handled by the 'group', I understand that they didn't like her and LORD KNOWS they had good reason, but to simply yell at someone and tell them that you don't like them when they've just been dumped by your good friend is not the most compassionate way to deal with someone. I have an issue with that. Although I do understand the frustration that made Sky react that way.

Clearly Jodi was disturbed, I have never dealt with a person as extreme as Jodi, but I definitely have known a lot of girls who have gone completely loopy over a guy to the point of vindictiveness / stalking / tire slashing etc. And basically what was done was a kind of intervention, you know just all the rest of us (after discussing her behaviour) deciding on a combined message to drill into her head, and then began drilling it into her head! You know 'Stop all behaviour, you're making yourself crazy, you're making it worse, can you imagine what he thinks of you .. is that really how you want to be remembered AS THE BUNNY BOILER EX GIRLFRIEND?, stop writing about him, stop talking about him, stop thinking about him, behave your way out of this, etc etc etc' .... until they wake up to themselves.

Also Travis himself .. he kept sleeping with her! He knew more than anyone that it was bad, that she had it baaaaaaaaaad, did anyone in this group think of Jodi? Wouldn't a guy think 'maybe I should stop sleeping with this chick, because it's going to keep her in this unhealthy situation' .. I don't think that's too far fetched to think of men as capable of that, I've known many men who've stopped sleeping with women for just that reason.

It is the one thing that bothers me the most about Jodi's side of the story. That nobody had any compassion for her, and nobody went 'whoa, OK something's not right here, this is beyond the scope of normal, this girl has mental problems, we need to THINK CAREFULLY about how we handle this'.

I think it's difficult to really put ourselves in the shoes of Travis's friends. We hear only bits and pieces without real context and without really knowing what was going on in each situation. I never got the sense that they were really good friends with Jodi, versus acquainted with her only because she and Travis were together. Listening to Dr. DeMarte describe people with BPD behaving in manners that tends to make people want to push them away, versus draw them in, probably can explain why "the group" had a difficult time being compassionate towards her. Her weirdness probably made them frustrated and uncomfortable and they just wanted her out of their lives. A lot of times, people can't even articulate what it is about someone that they don't want around. They just know that they don't want them there.

Right now, I have a friend who has a friend who clearly is suffering from some form of personality disorder. She threatens my friends with suicide once the consequences of her own actions catch up to her. She emotionally blackmails my friend into helping her out with money, etc. My friend can't figure out what's wrong with her and is genuinely scared that if she doesn't keep helping her she may actually kill herself. She knows that what her friend is doing is wrong but she just don't know how to deal with it. My friend is always teasing me about my interest in psychology and knowing why people do the things that they do - her friend is that reason. I want to know when I am faced with people with personality disorders so that, if I am faced with a Jodi or someone like my friend's friend, I don't feel like it's my fault for not wanting to associate with them anymore. And, maybe I can get them out of my life before it gets to the point of my yelling at them about it.

I hope the above made sense. lol

 

[chijojo]

This is true. Maybe the sex was not as often as everyone makes it out to be.

She would come over uninvited most of the time imo.

She slithered her way to give Travis what men want the most. (at that age anyways).

JA said TA would say "I'm getting sleepy, dot,dot,dot". and that was the code for wanting her to come over.

 

[kaRN]

Sorry to ask this again, but could someone guide me where in the testimony I might find the ring and or Christmas tree "sleepover",Thanks in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8XEK-B6OOI

She says it on direct near the beginning.

 

[Alexander family fan]

YES!!!! this is what i think too. she didn't even make it 2 months away from him. i think it just built up to the point where she decided the only way to end her OWN pain was to kill HIM. and i don't think she felt remorse at all---i think she was relieved when it was done.

You are correct. We know this by what she said to Detective Flores. She was crying, for everything she was going to miss out of in life, for everything Travis was going to miss out on, her brothers and sisters....she went on to say, I know Travis is fine, he is in a good place, but what about his brothers and sisters and his friends, I know IT IS ONLY TEMPORARY, but it is just so much right now. I remember just being in shock hearing that she thought the pain of having their beloved brother brutally murdered would be somehow temporary. They are forever changed. They will miss Travis every minute, of every day, forever.

She, however, was done with him. Moving on. Temporary. For that I would have no trouble voting for the death penalty.:furious::furious:

 

[Wescott]

No one in Jodi's former life had ever met Travis AFAIK. Her parents said they had never met him and really didn't know a lot about him. I'm not sure what you were expecting Travis or his friends to do in this situation. Jodi is a grown adult and is solely responsible for her actions. It isn't everyone else's job to make sure she doesn't make a decision to brutally end someone's life. And just because she exhibited signs of mental illness, does not mean she is forced to brutally murder another human being. She did that of her own volition.

Couldn't agree more. The only person responsible for allowing herself to be treated as "a three hole wonder" is the defendant.

 

[nic2200]

JA said TA would say "I'm getting sleepy, dot,dot,dot". and that was the code for wanting her to come over.

I can't imagine there being a reason to use "code" and not just say, "Why don't you come over?" So weird...

 

[sacrablue]

Jodi is the one responsible that is for sure, but I agree that labelling just doesn't help. I don't think that in order to have compassion for Travis and to see that he is a complete victim means you have to turn off your ability to have compassion for Jodi too, and try and see things from her side. Clearly she has not helped, she's calling him a pedophile and an abuser in open court FGS which is just, well, I mean it makes me wild because its just such slander!

Someone did try and contact her mother, I have a feeling it was Travis or one of his friends, her mother said 'he' when describing the person who called, and really it was a family problem, but Jodi made it very difficult for her family to get involved too. She really is her own worst enemy in so many ways .. because she is so severely disturbed IMO.

But yes, I want to go beyond the negative feelings I have towards her and try and have an understanding of her side of the experience. She is disturbed and damaged, was friendless and untreated. I don't believe that anyone on this planet is pure evil or pure goodness .. that is just not my experience of human nature.

Yes, I think if Travis took the time to contact and or visit JA's Mom, the real story might have become apparent and this waste of life diverted. I believe as sharp as Travis was, the truth would have been understood.

 

[YESorNO]

Support their client to the best of their abilities, nothing more, nothing less.

Phffffffff!!

 

[ElleElle]

I know. I'd love it if we can get our hands on all the text/emails exchanges between the two. lease:

I can't imagine there being a reason to use "code" and not just say, "Why don't you come over?" So weird...

 

[BetsyB]

Oh well, sociopaths can't feel anything anyway.

This is a common misconception. It's incorrect. Sociopaths can and do feel. They do not feel the full range of human emotion, but they feel.

Most markedly, they do not experience empathy or remorse. However, they can and do experience other emotions---as they relate to themselves. For example, my (diagnosed) antisocial husband showed a pretty flat affect during most of the demise of our marriage--a period of many months when it became clear, to me, that I was married to a complete stranger (even though I'd known him for over 30 years). I completely fell apart when assimilating the notion that my entire adult life was founded on fraud.

What he did was manipulate our lives so that I experienced the feelings for both of us; then, he responded with disgust and anger. And really demented pride that he was so strong while I was so weak. (After all, I was emoting all over the place.)

But most of the time, he was utterly impassive. I could quite literally be a puddle of snot and tears on the floor (25 years' worth of pain came out when I realized my life was ... a complete and utter fraud), and he'd simply step over me and carry on as though nothing was awry. When I begged him to talk, and he actually indulged me, he was either sneering and derisive (angry) or had a totally flat affect, with no emotion at all. His emotions ranged from blank, emotionless affect to scorn and seething anger. There was nothing else. No empathy, no remorse, no sadness, no anything. Except for anger. That was never very far below the flat surface.

He can seem empathetic, in certain circumstances. If someone else is experiencing something with which he has personal experience, he is able to appear as though he is putting himself in their shoes. This is useful, because it does convince others he has a range of emotion that is broader than he actually does.

What he does--and quite well (though he usually does not bother, with me at least, any more)---is act as though he has the usual range of human emotion. Really, the range is very small.

Unfortunately, what he does feel is incredibly destructive.

Jodi Arias feels. Her emotional range is stunted. Her feelings are blunted. Except the anger---that is amplified, as is her sense of entitlement. All we need to do is look at what she's done to see what her anger spawns.

The acts of a sociopath or psychopath are not those of an unfeeling human. They are the acts of a person feeling disproportionate anger, and not much else.

JMO and experience, of course.