Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[gardenia]

IF MR had wanted to abduct & molest a child, why on earth would TLM choose a child that was known to her, who could identify her?

i can't get past this question.

jmo.

 

[robynhood]

IMO gardenia ....First off I am a techer of primary children for many years ..20+ and I can tell you there are NOt that many kids walking home alone /most walk with a friend or smeone picks them up......This was a rarity that Tori even did this PLUS I feel she was waiting for her brother who was just talking a maybe 10 min walk to help another child( with Autism get home)...Imo Plus I think Tori was familiar with TLM as she saw her walk her dog just a few days before...( that was mentioned on here and I think they had a video of her walking her shitzo dog ...I think I read it here ...???..........The key part is The OPPORTUNITY presented itself ....hmm here is a young child alone ...and she approached Tori who unfortunately loved shitzu dogs ....and so there ya go....Imo...Plus "I" Do believe MR dared her and just droped her off ....Crown presented that video ...MR's car was seen dropping TLM off near Tori's school ....I feel it fit together like a percise puzzle...I feel the Crown did an EXCELLENT Job of showing details for details of evidence of that horrible day ....APRIL 8 2009...nightmare city ! ...if you want confirmation look at all the evidence the Crown presented ....one article in the London press paper shows exactly the # of evidence presented by the crown and all the witness presented ....wow ...awaiting the defense to explain the ALL of this ....???robynhood ...we shall see this Tuesday ....OMG again! ...IMO...robynhood

 

[Wondergirl]

MTR and TLM met in February 2009 and by April 8, 2009, during this short amount of time, both were able to get into the other's psyche.

Why did they do this and why the overkill. How did these two ever broach the subject of carrying out these horrific acts upon a child. I think it is the worst case I have ever followed.

The Genest video does not portray either one of them, the least bit anxious.

It appears both MTR and TLM were able to compartmentalize their despicable acts.


MOO

BBM: Were they able to compartmentalize their despicable acts due to prior experience?

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

It was pretty obvious the Crown edited the video to show what they wanted to show..........but I am wondering why Derstine is just letting a lot of things slide by.

I also wondered why he didn't object to all that testimony from endless females testifying to nothing relevant to the trial.

I also wondered about the "escort" and why he didn't ask her how she made a living for herself if she gave all her money to MR. Her answer could have shown that her integrity as a witness was compromised.

Maybe letting the Crown carry on..........and gathering up things for appeal at a later date........if needed?

JMO................

Derstine can't open a can of worms.

THAT isn't going to help his client get a verdict of not-guilty.

He knew to leave well enough alone.

JMO

 

[snoofer]

Since MR and TLM both had all day to do whatever they wanted on April 8, 2009, did the premeditation for the murder occur somewhere between Woodstock and Guelph.

Why were the garbage bags and the hammer purchased at HD in Guelph, why not before leaving Woodstock. Did MR think that far ahead, wanting to capture TLM on camera purchasing these items and not himself?

Were they that naive, as to think the camera(s) would not have been rolling in Guelph in a HD, the way they obviously thought they would have been in Woodstock, so if MR wanted TLM on the video surveillance, what was the difference between store location.

Just MOO

MTR packed a change of clothes for them. MOO

 

[Salem]

It shouldn't be IMO. The edited pieces showed only what the Crown needed to make their point. How the visits started and ended doesn't mean the entire visit was all hugs and giggles and cracking backs.

JMO

Do you think there was arguing and disconnect between the clips that we saw? They parted on friendly terms, it appears. Do you think the Defense will be showing us clips that indicate there was some discord between the two?

Salem

 

[Salem]

IF MR had wanted to abduct & molest a child, why on earth would TLM choose a child that was known to her, who could identify her?

i can't get past this question.

jmo.

All testimony has been that Tori did NOT know TLM. I am on the fence about whether or not TLM knew Tori however. TLM claims she did not, but....

Salem

 

[Wondergirl]

I thought it's purpose was to show that they were still a "couple" and back up TLM's testimony that they acted together. Also perhaps, judging by some of the conversion on here, that he may have manipulated her into the act. If that was their intent, speaking only for myself, it failed miserably. She had to ask him for the hug, he patted her on the head like a little sister, and he couldn't wait to get away. She had him by the gonzos and he had no choice but to humour her or go to jail. JMO

Do you think the video corroborated MTR's statement to LE that he barely knew TLM?

P.S. How did SHE have HIM by the gonzos? Curious?

 

[snoofer]

Since MR and TLM both had all day to do whatever they wanted on April 8, 2009, did the premeditation for the murder occur somewhere between Woodstock and Guelph.

Why were the garbage bags and the hammer purchased at HD in Guelph, why not before leaving Woodstock. Did MR think that far ahead, wanting to capture TLM on camera purchasing these items and not himself?

Were they that naive, as to think the camera(s) would not have been rolling in Guelph in a HD, the way they obviously thought they would have been in Woodstock, so if MR wanted TLM on the video surveillance, what was the difference between store location.

Just MOO

LE only knew about the HD because TLM told them. I don't think MTR ever thought she would admit to being involved. Think he thought she would clam up if confronted and never rat. I think he never thought the body would be found so there would be no need to check hardware stores for video of them. MTR was also caught following TLM on video while she led TS to the arranged meeting spot. This shows premeditation before they grabbed TS. MOO Good things coming my way...the extra clothes for TLM. JMO

 

[snoofer]

Do you think the video corroborated MTR's statement to LE that he barely knew TLM?

P.S. How did SHE have HIM by the gonzos? Curious?

The video showed he told yet another Big Fat Porky Pie! JMO

 

[Salem]

Witness credibility is an important factor for jury consideration.

The escort testified she gave all her money from the escort business to MR.

Is that a true or false statement?

Well............to believe her statement is true, you have to believe:

a) she had other gainful employment.

b) she lived on no income.

The escort also said she was having financial difficult and decided to become an escort. She then said she would give all the money to MR.

How did that help out her personal finances?

Her testimony was that MR asked her for money for gas and a car payment

Why would he have to give her any reason at all, if she was giving him all the money anyways?

Sorry................not buying this song and dance routine.

JMO..............

Even if she didn't give him ALL the money, what does that matter? We know how much money she did give him and it was a substantial sum. Close to $17,000 wasn't it, over 6 months. That works out to about $2,500 to $3,000 a month.

Her personal finances are not at issue and as far as the money goes, in my opinion, neither is her credibility because the bank records prove the amount of money she gave him and more importantly the amount of money she gave him on April 8th, the day in question.

Salem

 

[Wondergirl]

Witness credibility is an important factor for jury consideration.

The escort testified she gave all her money from the escort business to MR.

Is that a true or false statement?

Well............to believe her statement is true, you have to believe:

a) she had other gainful employment.

b) she lived on no income.

The escort also said she was having financial difficult and decided to become an escort. She then said she would give all the money to MR.

How did that help out her personal finances?

Her testimony was that MR asked her for money for gas and a car payment

Why would he have to give her any reason at all, if she was giving him all the money anyways?

Sorry................not buying this song and dance routine.

JMO..............

The lack of cross and the fact that absolutely ZERO attempts were made to discredit Charity's testimony, indicates that you are incorrect this is a song and dance routine.

Derstine was well aware of Charity, and was probably relieved that's ALL she was able to testify about on the stand. Afterall, he couldn't refute the $ transfers, could he? Black & white.

Charity's testimony was the truth. There was WAY MORE. Derstine was wise enough not to go there. Really wise.

Therefore, her testimony stands as very strong testimony against MTR regarding the irrefutable fact of the $ transfers.

Song and dance, allright, by the defense.

Tappity-tap-tap-tap.

JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

All testimony has been that Tori did NOT know TLM. I am on the fence about whether or not TLM knew Tori however. TLM claims she did not, but....

Salem

JMO, was it not disclosed TLM had met TS? I seem to recall she said she had met her on a walk (s)? I will look for link. Seem to recall reading TLM said TS asked where TLM's dog Precious was??

 

[otto]

Here's an article that describes some of MR's background. It sounds like he was a troubled child, or perhaps too much for his mom to handle, so he was partially raised by extended family.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...out-remarks-he-made-after-tori-147282055.html

 

[Flossie JMO]

"In another, she was to admit that she didn't know Tori but had met her on a previous occasion with her dog. She said she was told to tell police that day she ran into the blond-haired girl and walked with her but parted ways shortly after. In the third scenario, she was to say the two picked up the girl but dropped her off in a green sedan."



Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Sta...ything+video/6300744/story.html#ixzz1tSujH2ry

 

[Ardy]

Even if she didn't give him ALL the money, what does that matter? We know how much money she did give him and it was a substantial sum. Close to $17,000 wasn't it, over 6 months. That works out to about $2,500 to $3,000 a month.

Her personal finances are not at issue and as far as the money goes, in my opinion, neither is her credibility because the bank records prove the amount of money she gave him and more importantly the amount of money she gave him on April 8th, the day in question.

Salem

I think the amount was actually more than that, as she said the figure didn't include cash she gave him.

The origin of the money she gave to MR, could be an issue, if it was drug related, and the defense is pursuing the abduction of VS as a drug related crime.

I would imagine Derstine already knows the answer to that question, as it wouldn't be hard for an investigator to ask around the neighbourhood and learn some details.

We will see if it is mentioned again, or let drop..................

JMO............

 

[Flossie JMO]

Witness credibility is an important factor for jury consideration.

The escort testified she gave all her money from the escort business to MR.

Is that a true or false statement?

Well............to believe her statement is true, you have to believe:

a) she had other gainful employment.

b) she lived on no income.

The escort also said she was having financial difficult and decided to become an escort. She then said she would give all the money to MR.

How did that help out her personal finances?

Her testimony was that MR asked her for money for gas and a car payment

Why would he have to give her any reason at all, if she was giving him all the money anyways?

Sorry................not buying this song and dance routine.

JMO..............

JMO, ITA, well thought out post. JMO

 

[Ardy]

The lack of cross and the fact that absolutely ZERO attempts were made to discredit Charity's testimony, indicates that you are incorrect this is a song and dance routine.

Derstine was well aware of Charity, and was probably relieved that's ALL she was able to testify about on the stand. Afterall, he couldn't refute the $ transfers, could he? Black & white.

Charity's testimony was the truth. There was WAY MORE. Derstine was wise enough not to go there. Really wise.

Therefore, her testimony stands as very strong testimony against MTR regarding the irrefutable fact of the $ transfers.

Song and dance, allright, by the defense.

Tappity-tap-tap-tap.

JMO

The question still remains unanswered though.

If she gave all her money to MR..........what did she live on?

Was the money really from an "escort" business, or due to something else?

How does it all relate to the defense theory of a "drug debt" crime?

You may be right, that Derstine didn't challenge the witness directly, as she would have simply denied it, but if he can provide other evidence that shows the money was for some other reason............then what?

Remember that if people are involved in drug trafficking, they aren't going to want to be saying much about it, and testifying in court isn't going to change that, because they will still be on the streets long after this trial is over.

JMO..............

 

[otto]

Since MR and TLM both had all day to do whatever they wanted on April 8, 2009, did the premeditation for the murder occur somewhere between Woodstock and Guelph.

Why were the garbage bags and the hammer purchased at HD in Guelph, why not before leaving Woodstock. Did MR think that far ahead, wanting to capture TLM on camera purchasing these items and not himself?

Were they that naive, as to think the camera(s) would not have been rolling in Guelph in a HD, the way they obviously thought they would have been in Woodstock, so if MR wanted TLM on the video surveillance, what was the difference between store location.

Just MOO

I'm of the opinion that the premeditation happened in the days before the abduction. When I hear that he discussed abducting children with women, I think he was testing the water. I think that he tested the water with TLM and discovered that she was prepared to go along with the idea. I would like to see his computer records ... I'm curious about what he liked to read and if it related to other child abduction cases.

"Once, Ms. Hodge said, they had a little chat about “abducting kids,” surely a fascinating subject for a child worker and a man who would soon be charged with precisely that crime.

It was he who raised the topic, she said. “He said how people take kids, abduct them, and they [the kids] grow up thinking they’re [the kidnappers] like their real parents,” she said."

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...m-witnessing-horrifying-tori-stafford-murder/

 

[otto]

I think the amount was actually more than that, as she said the figure didn't include cash she gave him.

The origin of the money she gave to MR, could be an issue, if it was drug related, and the defense is pursuing the abduction of VS as a drug related crime.

I would imagine Derstine already knows the answer to that question, as it wouldn't be hard for an investigator to ask around the neighbourhood and learn some details.

We will see if it is mentioned again, or let drop..................

JMO............

So ... going with this theory ... the escort knowingly provided money to MR to buy drugs or she bought drugs from MR ... then MR abducted Victoria because of a drug debt ... I suppose this would mean that Victoria's mother owed money to someone ... I can't see how this adds up.

Could you elaborate a little more on this theory? How does the escort connect to Victoria's mother?