Welcome our Chemist to Websleuths/Syringe in bottle and traces of chloroform #3

[ZsaZsa]

Did they ever release DR. G's opinion of Caylee's death. I know she stated homicide of unknown, or something along those lines, but didn't she state that she had a pretty definite idea about cause of death that was her opinion?

She said the manner of death was homicide, the cause of death unknown.
Hopefully she will be called to elaborate on that finding.

 

[cecybeans]

If that duct tape can be proven to have been applied ante or peri-mortem, I'd say that's a slam dunk of a good guess.

 

[Harmony 2]

If that duct tape can be proven to have been applied ante or peri-mortem, I'd say that's a slam dunk of a good guess.

Hi Cecy!

I am waiting to see if there was any chloroform on the duct tape or Winnie the Pooh blanket. If the searches for chloroform, its components, death and significantly high levels found in the trunk can be tied to the duct tape over Caylee's breathing orifices I think a connection can then be made to premeditation.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Haven't read the 11/09 released reports re: syringe & Gatorade bottle, Crystal Light bottle and Forensic Entymology reports. Have read ~50% of the threads on these items...so uninformed & asking for someone to fill in the blanks.

I can't come up w/ a reasonable scenario that involves either the Crystal Light bottle or the Gatorade bottle, the syringe, pesticides and JT's sighting. And, FWIW, I'm inclined to give import to JT's sighting due to SA's listing.

Still...I'm curious about the timing.

Not having read the released reports...I assume they weren't available until well after Dec '08. Yet, IIRC, when LE executed the search warrant in Dec '08on G&C's they collected pesticide sprayers and an oil collection pan. :waitasec: Coincidence? Something else lead them to collect these items? Chloroform use as a pesticide in general based on Arped's email?

Presence of coffin flies, absence of blowflies & JT's sighting have taken plenty of things off the table for me. Just like to put these bottle contents to rest completely.

 

[cecybeans]

I'll bet you are referring to the Dec 11 search warrant, or the one executed immediately after the remains were found.

Perhaps collecting the pesticide sprayers were due to residue on the carpet of the trunk since it was obviously too early to test the Gatorade bottle. Pesticides might have been sprayed before the car was impounded, by KC herself, or perhaps after it was taken back home.

Because the initial air samples indicated extremely high levels of chloroform, and especially after the computer searches, etc. it would seem reasonable that chloroform testing would be the center focus of all chemical searches, which might include both sprayers and solvents (it certainly was requested on the Gatorade bottle). Do pesticides break down into chloroform as a component?

I think the Gatorade bottle having solvents in it and only a trace amount of chloroform eliminated it from that avenue of thinking. The needle had solvents and a trace of testosterone, so how the needle got that way is strange. Also, I have not seen that any expert tried to determine how long the bag and bottle were there compared to the remains (perhaps it was planted later as a set-up). It is still a mystery but probably not something the pros will use at this point - the discovery we have is, I believe, from the bench notes at the lab that JB specifically requested, so it would not have been released otherwise.

Crystal Light bottle might be full of tobacco spit (Copenhagen tin found in garbage bag as well) and does not appear to be significant so far.

IIRC, entomology reports say that blow-fly or other insect colonization takes place on the ground after the body is dumped, but coffin flies are present while body was in trunk (please correct me if I'm wrong someone).

 

[BondJamesBond]

I'll bet you are referring to the Dec 11 search warrant, or the one executed immediately after the remains were found.

Perhaps collecting the pesticide sprayers were due to residue on the carpet of the trunk since it was obviously too early to test the Gatorade bottle. Pesticides might have been sprayed before the car was impounded, by KC herself, or perhaps after it was taken back home.

Because the initial air samples indicated extremely high levels of chloroform, and especially after the computer searches, etc. it would seem reasonable that chloroform testing would be the center focus of all chemical searches, which might include both sprayers and solvents (it certainly was requested on the Gatorade bottle). Do pesticides break down into chloroform as a component?

I think the Gatorade bottle having solvents in it and only a trace amount of chloroform eliminated it from that avenue of thinking. The needle had solvents and a trace of testosterone, so how the needle got that way is strange. Also, I have not seen that any expert tried to determine how long the bag and bottle were there compared to the remains (perhaps it was planted later as a set-up). It is still a mystery but probably not something the pros will use at this point - the discovery we have is, I believe, from the bench notes at the lab that JB specifically requested, so it would not have been released otherwise.

Crystal Light bottle might be full of tobacco spit (Copenhagen tin found in garbage bag as well) and does not appear to be significant so far.

IIRC, entomology reports say that blow-fly or other insect colonization takes place on the ground after the body is dumped, but coffin flies are present while body was in trunk (please correct me if I'm wrong someone).

Thanks, Cecy. All consistent for me.

FWIW, chloroform is used as a pesticide. So, seems likely it was just a general move on LE's part.

Coffin/blow for me telling that K9 alerts were due to secondary contamination and not directly w/ the body.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Hmmm....just had something pop into my head when I read the posts about the pesticide sprayers. This is graphic (and hard to type) but here goes... If KC put Caylee's body into the trunk and left her in there long enough for the smell to be noticable DAYS later without opening the trunk, shouldn't there have been flies/bugs in the trunk and car when the A's went to pick it up? If I understand correctly, some of these bugs can find a dead body within minutes and will travel pretty long distances to get to a body. Wouldn't they have gotten into the trunk somehow....or wouldn't they at least get into the car in an attempt to get to the body? They could have gotten in there with KC when she got in and out of the car (I mean, she was driving it around while it smelled like a dead body....remember the squirrel story...). Maybe the smell was tolerable with the windows rolled down, maybe she sprayed lots of Febreeze and air freshener, or maybe she tried to overpower it with perfume...but that wouldn't have kept the bugs from getting in. I keep thinking about how you see flies swarming around garbage cans when you throw out rotten food in the summertime....nothing drives them away...except bug spray (aka pesticide). Maybe KC started having a bug problem in her car and she didn't want it cramping her style or embarassing her (as if the smell wasn't bad enough) so she decided to use a pesticide spray to try and get rid of them. She was obviously aware of the smell...and since she gave that stupid squirrel story to her friend she had to realize that other people would start to notice it. Why else would she offer an excuse/explanation for the smell? It'd be pretty hard to make up a good lie about why bugs were swarming the car, I guess.
I dunno...thinking myself in circles....what do you guys think?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Hmmm....just had something pop into my head when I read the posts about the pesticide sprayers. This is graphic (and hard to type) but here goes... If KC put Caylee's body into the trunk and left her in there long enough for the smell to be noticable DAYS later without opening the trunk, shouldn't there have been flies/bugs in the trunk and car when the A's went to pick it up? If I understand correctly, some of these bugs can find a dead body within minutes and will travel pretty long distances to get to a body. Wouldn't they have gotten into the trunk somehow....or wouldn't they at least get into the car in an attempt to get to the body? They could have gotten in there with KC when she got in and out of the car (I mean, she was driving it around while it smelled like a dead body....remember the squirrel story...). Maybe the smell was tolerable with the windows rolled down, maybe she sprayed lots of Febreeze and air freshener, or maybe she tried to overpower it with perfume...but that wouldn't have kept the bugs from getting in. I keep thinking about how you see flies swarming around garbage cans when you throw out rotten food in the summertime....nothing drives them away...except bug spray (aka pesticide). Maybe KC started having a bug problem in her car and she didn't want it cramping her style or embarassing her (as if the smell wasn't bad enough) so she decided to use a pesticide spray to try and get rid of them. She was obviously aware of the smell...and since she gave that stupid squirrel story to her friend she had to realize that other people would start to notice it. Why else would she offer an excuse/explanation for the smell? It'd be pretty hard to make up a good lie about why bugs were swarming the car, I guess.
I dunno...thinking myself in circles....what do you guys think?

IMHO, there is a general school of thought that G or C or Casey used a pesticide (e.g. sprayer) in the process of treating the trunk. Not suggesting that G or C was doing it covertly...just a natural reaction to seeing insects IYKWIM.

ETA: In full disclosure, IMHO, chloroform level due solely to the decomposition and not other effects, however, prudent on LE's part to check out other avenues.

 

[magic-cat]

Hey Bond...we discussed the Crystal Light bottle in another thread and in the end it was determined, to the best of our sleuthing abilities, to be spit...tobacco spit...nothing to it...belonged to one of the room-mates who dipped snuff, and there was an empty can of that in the bag as well...

 

[RR0004]

IMHO, there is a general school of thought that G or C or Casey used a pesticide (e.g. sprayer) in the process of treating the trunk. Not suggesting that G or C was doing it covertly...just a natural reaction to seeing insects IYKWIM.

ETA: In full disclosure, IMHO, chloroform level due solely to the decomposition and not other effects, however, prudent on LE's part to check out other avenues.

JB made a big deal saying the media overreacted to the "chloroform" news. There was no "notable" evidence of chloroform in the bottles. And after careful examination of the docs...and with help from people much more knowledgeable than I...I can conclude that he's right. The media read the info wrong (not so tough to do, IMO)...but that doesn't negate the chloroform level in the trunk. He might want to distract us from thinking about that, but I, for one, am keeping my eye on the ball.

 

[RR0004]

Hey Bond...we discussed the Crystal Light bottle in another thread and in the end it was determined, to the best of our sleuthing abilities, to be spit...tobacco spit...nothing to it...belonged to one of the room-mates who dipped snuff, and there was an empty can of that in the bag as well...

I thought it was urine? Either way...nothing there as far as evidence is concerned (unless there is something else we don't know)

 

[magic-cat]

I thought it was urine? Either way...nothing there as far as evidence is concerned (unless there is something else we don't know)

Yeah, so did I, but in the end it only smelled like urine and was yellow like urine, but was NOT urine...it was spit.

 

[BondJamesBond]

There was no "notable" evidence of chloroform in the bottles. And after careful examination of the docs...and with help from people much more knowledgeable than I...I can conclude that he's right.

*snipped*
+1

 

[Harmony 2]

IMHO, there is a general school of thought that G or C or Casey used a pesticide (e.g. sprayer) in the process of treating the trunk. Not suggesting that G or C was doing it covertly...just a natural reaction to seeing insects IYKWIM.

ETA: In full disclosure, IMHO, chloroform level due solely to the decomposition and not other effects, however, prudent on LE's part to check out other avenues.

Chloroform levels due solely to decomp? That high a level? How do you interpret these statements?

page 6557

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

IMHO, there is a general school of thought that G or C or Casey used a pesticide (e.g. sprayer) in the process of treating the trunk. Not suggesting that G or C was doing it covertly...just a natural reaction to seeing insects IYKWIM.

ETA: In full disclosure, IMHO, chloroform level due solely to the decomposition and not other effects, however, prudent on LE's part to check out other avenues.

Do we know how much time passed from when the A's picked up the car until the police arrived to investigate? If they had cleaned up the car would it have had time to dry? Just wondering cause of what LA said about the car when he got to the house, that the whole garage smelled like decomposition and that the trunk and doors of the car were opened to air out. So I'm guessing that if a person were to spray a trunk to get rid of a large number of insects (and they also wanted to get rid of a bad smell) would they need to leave the doors/trunk open to let the pesticide spray dry out? And was the garage door open or closed when he got there and said that the whole garage smelled...cause why would you spray out a car with pesticide (or clean it with strong chemical cleaners) in an enclosed area? Shouldn't that be done OUTSIDE so that there is more ventillation?? And what about the time of day....would it have been too dark outside to clean and/or air-out the car in the driveway (making it necessary to clean/de-bug the car inside the lighted garage) by the time they got the car home (before the police were called)??

 

[BondJamesBond]

Do we know how much time passed from when the A's picked up the car until the police arrived to investigate? If they had cleaned up the car would it have had time to dry? Just wondering cause of what LA said about the car when he got to the house, that the whole garage smelled like decomposition and that the trunk and doors of the car were opened to air out. So I'm guessing that if a person were to spray a trunk to get rid of a large number of insects (and they also wanted to get rid of a bad smell) would they need to leave the doors/trunk open to let the pesticide spray dry out? And was the garage door open or closed when he got there and said that the whole garage smelled...cause why would you spray out a car with pesticide (or clean it with strong chemical cleaners) in an enclosed area? Shouldn't that be done OUTSIDE so that there is more ventillation?? And what about the time of day....would it have been too dark outside to clean and/or air-out the car in the driveway (making it necessary to clean/de-bug the car inside the lighted garage) by the time they got the car home (before the police were called)??

Details on a couple of other threads...not much time to respond this AM.

Pontiac taken into the garage and the battery taken out (presumably so Casey couldn't pop-in and disappear w/ it.).

They had time, yes, but, not much pre-LE arrival 7/15PM (re: Lee & Casey sitting in the garage w/ the wave of smell). Much more time 7/16.

 

[RR0004]

Do we know how much time passed from when the A's picked up the car until the police arrived to investigate? If they had cleaned up the car would it have had time to dry? Just wondering cause of what LA said about the car when he got to the house, that the whole garage smelled like decomposition and that the trunk and doors of the car were opened to air out. So I'm guessing that if a person were to spray a trunk to get rid of a large number of insects (and they also wanted to get rid of a bad smell) would they need to leave the doors/trunk open to let the pesticide spray dry out? And was the garage door open or closed when he got there and said that the whole garage smelled...cause why would you spray out a car with pesticide (or clean it with strong chemical cleaners) in an enclosed area? Shouldn't that be done OUTSIDE so that there is more ventillation?? And what about the time of day....would it have been too dark outside to clean and/or air-out the car in the driveway (making it necessary to clean/de-bug the car inside the lighted garage) by the time they got the car home (before the police were called)??

I always thought it a bit odd that the car was in the garage "airing out". IIRC the doors were down...which leads me to believe the As didn't want anyone smelling the stink. I guess it could also have been just the neighborly thing to do.

 

[wenwe4]

I was thinking that it was odd to "air out" the car inside of the garage. I understand bringing the car home and maybe wanting to hide it until it was disabled, but once disabled - they probably wouldn't have fixed the car to move it back out. Honestly, I don't think their motivation was to protect the neighborhood with a "neighborly" gesture - as that just doesn't appear to be their previous pattern of behavior with the neighbors. I truly think they were too embarrassed to have the stinky car out for everyone's view, however - I think this was at great cost to their need for orderliness and cleanliness. Giving even more creedence to G & C spraying the trunk if there were coffin or blowflies.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Chloroform levels due solely to decomp? That high a level? How do you interpret these statements?

page 6557

Not sure if you want an explaination of what the statement means or if you want an opinion about whether or not the findings are significant. I'll go ahead and do both...just trying to make sure I answer your question as best I can!

They used some type of tool to scrape the inside of the wheel well and they analyzed the stuff they scraped off. When it says "methanol extraction" it just means that they took the scrapings and sloshed them around in some methanol (very technical language I'm using here, huh? lol). The methanol dissolved the compounds of interest form the scraping material and the solution was then analyzed. They found the compounds that were listed in the document in the methanol solution ...so the compounds they identified would have come from the inside of the wheel well. I'm not sure what type of chemicals I would expect to find on the inside of a wheel well ...but none of those listed make my hinky meter go off.
I am not terribly concerned about the acetic acid. Would have been acetic acid that they found, since the pH of the carpet in the trunk was 5.5 (lower pH is acidic....neutral is 7...higher pH is basic). Acetic acid is really just vinegar and lots of people use vinegar for cleaning. We're pretty sure that the A's cleaned up the trunk, so that might explain the vinegar (or acetic acid) being present.

 

[Harmony 2]

Not sure if you want an explaination of what the statement means or if you want an opinion about whether or not the findings are significant. I'll go ahead and do both...just trying to make sure I answer your question as best I can!

They used some type of tool to scrape the inside of the wheel well and they analyzed the stuff they scraped off. When it says "methanol extraction" it just means that they took the scrapings and sloshed them around in some methanol (very technical language I'm using here, huh? lol). The methanol dissolved the compounds of interest form the scraping material and the solution was then analyzed. They found the compounds that were listed in the document in the methanol solution ...so the compounds they identified would have come from the inside of the wheel well. I'm not sure what type of chemicals I would expect to find on the inside of a wheel well ...but none of those listed make my hinky meter go off.
I am not terribly concerned about the acetic acid. Would have been acetic acid that they found, since the pH of the carpet in the trunk was 5.5 (lower pH is acidic....neutral is 7...higher pH is basic). Acetic acid is really just vinegar and lots of people use vinegar for cleaning. We're pretty sure that the A's cleaned up the trunk, so that might explain the vinegar (or acetic acid) being present.

Hi! Thank you so much for your reply!

I interpreted the statements differently. The following statement in particular says to me that it is believed chloroform was actually made:

Quote: "Acetic acid (in an acid environment) and/or acetate ion (in an alkaline environment) are by-products of making chloroform with acetone and chlorine."

Moreover, for various reasons I do not believe the trunk was cleaned. I know I stand alone in that contention. These are my reasons:

1) dirt and soil were found on the trunk carpet
2) large and small botanicals were also found
3) no cleaning products or additional chemicals were found on 6 portions of the trunk liner and carpet. The only compound found on these sections of the trunk was chloroform.

Now we have not seen the results on the wet vac and vacuums. If those items come back showing decomposition then I will change my mind. Otherwise there have been no other results, that I have read, that indicate cleaning was done. Cindy did admit she washed clothes and sprayed Febreeze. I have seen speculation based on that.

Thanks again for your response.