What do JonBenet's clothes say?

[UKGuy]

>>What we don't know and what was never revealed anywhere was the top that was worn with the soiled jeans. Could it have been the red turtleneck?
Let's say JonBenet was undressing in her bathroom before going to the Whites. She is removing her play clothes. She pulls down her play pants...steps on them...and they lay inside-out. Next, she takes off her play top...(the red turtleneck?)...she bunches it up and throws it on the counter.
MAKE ANY SENSE??? PLAY PANTS (SOILED JEANS) PLAY TOP (BUNCHED RED TURTLENECK)????

<<


I thought the red turtleneck was the top that Patsy and JonBenet had a disagreement over, the one Patsy had wanted her to wear to the White's and instead she wore the white star shirt from the Gap.[/QUOTE]
Yes it is. But what if the explanantion for the red turtleneck lying on the counter is bogus? Lets say its another one of Patsy's flight of imagination.

Like the size-12 underwear you only have patsy's word, there is no corroboration.

So lets play detective and tease it out:

When people die they sometimes defecate!

After her death, JonBenet's body was cleaned up, being in or close to a bathroom is a good place to do this, there are soiled jeans lying on the bathroom floor. Apparently the underwear she may have worn with the jeans are missing, I have not seen them itemized, why should this be?

A first re-dressing of JonBenet, may have included her red turtleneck, a response to the severity of her neck markings.

This is then removed for some unknown reason, and balled up and tossed onto the counter. Possibly because an abduction scenario from her bed seemed more realistic. If the perpetrator was acting in a forensically aware manner at this point then why not redress JonBenet with her Gap top? Wrap her in her blanket and carry her down the back stairs, the same stairs Patsy had a grammar parsing attack with during her interview!

JonBenet's body may have been relocated from upstairs down to the basement.

If JonBenet was wearing those jeans prior to her death, Patsy might wish to have an alternative explanation for the turtleneck being where it is, who can contradict her, its possible that the the soiled underwear was replaced by the size-12 pants?

There is probably an unintentional inverted symmetry here since down in the wine-cellar there was a clean barbie gown lying next to her on the floor, but she was wearing urine-stained longjohns, as if the purpose of the longjohns was temporary until she was redressed in her barbie gown.

Why are all these clothes lying conspicuously about the crime scene, this and the blanket they just seem superfluous, not really part of your standard Perpetrators Murder-Kit?


.

 

[narlacat]

I like your posts uk guy. You say things which I havent thought of and its like...yes of course! I guess my mind doesnt work as well as others about this crime, I'm not into any sort of crime shows and dont follow any other cases ,just this one.
I forgot
>>When people die they sometimes defecate!<<

>>There is probably an unintentional inverted symmetry here since down in the wine-cellar there was a clean barbie gown lying next to her on the floor, but she was wearing urine-stained longjohns, as if the purpose of the longjohns was temporary until she was redressed in her barbie gown. <<

And that is a good explanation for the barbie gown besides maybe being stuck on the blanket from coming out of the dryer.

 

[MlazyV]

Wasn't the nightgown for a doll not girl size?

LOU SMIT: I would like to
17 show you photograph number 145, and this
18 is a photograph of the wine cellar and it
19 was taken at after the body was found.
20 But John, I would like you just to take
21 look at this, and again difficult
22 photograph, but tell us what you see.
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's looking
24 in the room from the door, I see the blanket
25 that looks like the one that was around her.
0687
*1 There is a pink something, pink -- I think
*2 that's the nightgown or.
*3 LOU SMIT: That's what I was
*4 going to inquire about. It is a
*5 nightgown, it is a pink one, it is a
*6 Barbie nightgown?
*7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like
*8 it's a shinier material than I remember.
*9 (INAUDIBLE). That looks more like what I
10 kind of remember was on the Barbie doll
11 itself.
12 LOU SMIT: That one does?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If I had to
14 speculate, that looks too shiny, the material,
15 but it seems to me I remember that Barbie doll
16 had a shiny pink nightgown thing on it.

 

[UKGuy]

Wasn't the nightgown for a doll not girl size?

LOU SMIT: I would like to
17 show you photograph number 145, and this
18 is a photograph of the wine cellar and it
19 was taken at after the body was found.
20 But John, I would like you just to take
21 look at this, and again difficult
22 photograph, but tell us what you see.
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's looking
24 in the room from the door, I see the blanket
25 that looks like the one that was around her.
0687
*1 There is a pink something, pink -- I think
*2 that's the nightgown or.
*3 LOU SMIT: That's what I was
*4 going to inquire about. It is a
*5 nightgown, it is a pink one, it is a
*6 Barbie nightgown?
*7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like
*8 it's a shinier material than I remember.
*9 (INAUDIBLE). That looks more like what I
10 kind of remember was on the Barbie doll
11 itself.
12 LOU SMIT: That one does?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If I had to
14 speculate, that looks too shiny, the material,
15 but it seems to me I remember that Barbie doll
16 had a shiny pink nightgown thing on it.

MlazyV,

Well Ive never seen it described as a doll's night gown. I did see an alleged photograph off one similar on the front page of the National Enquirer over at candyrose, and it was child size. They did make them and apart from her pageant dressups JonBenet was interested in barbie clothes and dolls I think. Also I reckon a relative said she purchased it for Jonbenet as a gift.

John was viewing a photograph which had some glare and color distortion in it, so he was less than definitive!

Regardless of what it is , given there is little else in the room and the perpetrator has gone to some trouble to set things up, why should the perp not remove the barbie gown, since the perp has to exit the room anyway?

 

[UKGuy]

I like your posts uk guy. You say things which I havent thought of and its like...yes of course! I guess my mind doesnt work as well as others about this crime, I'm not into any sort of crime shows and dont follow any other cases ,just this one.
I forgot
>>When people die they sometimes defecate!<<

>>There is probably an unintentional inverted symmetry here since down in the wine-cellar there was a clean barbie gown lying next to her on the floor, but she was wearing urine-stained longjohns, as if the purpose of the longjohns was temporary until she was redressed in her barbie gown. <<

And that is a good explanation for the barbie gown besides maybe being stuck on the blanket from coming out of the dryer.

narlacat,

Thanks, its really just a matter of looking for alternative explanations that fit the facts.

Once you have read a few books and filtered out the obvious crime-scene staging elements you can concentrate easier on the evidence.

Another thought is , its always been remarked that there was a lack of urine staining anywhere on the floor. Its just possible she was lying in the bath, an attempt to keep post-mortem fluids off the floor. But when she was to be moved , longjohns were put on her , then wrapped in a blanket, not to keep her warm or display paternal care, more to reduce forensic contamination.

Lastly one right off the wall, what if in the act of undressing the dead body , which would not react as it would alive, the perpetrator drops JonBenet or her head flops backwards resulting in her bashed skull?


.

 

[tipper]

I still think if we ever see this photo it will be a picture of pants and underpants that were slipped off simultaneously, as many kids (and adults) are prone to do. Otherwise Haney would have said something like "Hey! Didn't this kid wear underwear? She was found wearing underwear." Instead they talk about her wiping problem in conjunction with the stain.

It is my experience that the amount of fecal matter released either from vagal irritation or post-mortem sphincter relaxation is more than just a "stain."

16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her

18 pants.

19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular

20 pants, when she would have worn those last?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably

22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the

23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.

24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

0457

1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It

2 appears they are stained.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet

5 had a problem with?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at

7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you

8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you

10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed

11 to just bed wetting?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That

13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those

15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in

16 there?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them

18 last.

19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that

22 bathroom at all?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say

24 for sure.

25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,

0458

1 would you have done something with them?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that

3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out

4 of that bathroom.

5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in

6 there.

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the

9 floor that night when you got the --

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

13 don't know.

14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

16 Don't know for sure.

17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point

18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those

19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;

20 trying to account for those being there.

21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

0459

1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

4 them there.

5 TOM HANEY: When she was out riding her bike,

6 do you remember, think back, look back at what she was

7 wearing.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. (Inaudible).

9 Envelope.

10 TOM HANEY: I don't know. But it is

11 obviously after these have been picked up and stretched

12 out for a photograph just -- it could be a

 

[UKGuy]

I still think if we ever see this photo it will be a picture of pants and underpants that were slipped off simultaneuosly, as many kids (and adults) are prone to do. Otherwise Haney would have said something like "Hey! Didn't this kid wear underwear? She was found wearing underwear." Instead they talk about her wiping problem in conjunction with the stain.

It is my experience that the amount of fecal matter released either from vagal irritation or post-mortem sphincter relaxation is more than just a "stain."

tipper,

This was my initial understanding, but on revisiting it, I thought if there were soiled underwear along with the pants, then Patsy's explanation would not be required or be superfluous, since it would be obvious what had occurred, but we only get one reference to underwear and Patsy is non-commital :

11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

13 don't know.

14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

16 Don't know for sure.

Although they talk about her wiping problem in conjunction with the stain. This dont mean they buy it. Thats Patsy's explanation why her pants are stained. Where are her underwear is that stained too?

Later Patsy states:
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

Unless patsy is totally ignoring her underwear, her focus is on the pants , as in the black velvet ones. There is no mention of underwear, which we all know is pretty significant, since she was found wearing size-12's and not soiled or clean size-6's.

So until we see the pictures or have it confirmed one way or the other its possibly open to interpretation ?

 

[narlacat]

narlacat,

Thanks, its really just a matter of looking for alternative explanations that fit the facts.

Once you have read a few books and filtered out the obvious crime-scene staging elements you can concentrate easier on the evidence.

Another thought is , its always been remarked that there was a lack of urine staining anywhere on the floor. Its just possible she was lying in the bath, an attempt to keep post-mortem fluids off the floor. But when she was to be moved , longjohns were put on her , then wrapped in a blanket, not to keep her warm or display paternal care, more to reduce forensic contamination.

Lastly one right off the wall, what if in the act of undressing the dead body , which would not react as it would alive, the perpetrator drops JonBenet or her head flops backwards resulting in her bashed skull?


.

That could explain the head injury uk guy, I hadnt thought of that either!!
Thats what I like about these forums, it gives you everyone else's perspective and I find out heaps here.

 

[tipper]

[...]Another thought is , its always been remarked that there was a lack of urine staining anywhere on the floor. Its just possible she was lying in the bath, an attempt to keep post-mortem fluids off the floor. But when she was to be moved , longjohns were put on her , then wrapped in a blanket, not to keep her warm or display paternal care, more to reduce forensic contamination.

[...]

There was a urine stain on the floor in the basement.

 

[Cranberry]

tipper,

This was my initial understanding, but on revisiting it, I thought if there were soiled underwear along with the pants, then Patsy's explanation would not be required or be superfluous, since it would be obvious what had occurred, but we only get one reference to underwear and Patsy is non-commital :

11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

13 don't know.

14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

16 Don't know for sure.

Although they talk about her wiping problem in conjunction with the stain. This dont mean they buy it. Thats Patsy's explanation why her pants are stained. Where are her underwear is that stained too?

Later Patsy states:
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

Unless patsy is totally ignoring her underwear, her focus is on the pants , as in the black velvet ones. There is no mention of underwear, which we all know is pretty significant, since she was found wearing size-12's and not soiled or clean size-6's.

So until we see the pictures or have it confirmed one way or the other its possibly open to interpretation ?

I agree UK Guy. I don't think underwear is mentioned. PR mentions the long johns and then an interruption TH: -- (something) underwear - perhaps he said long underwear which is another term for long johns.

 

[Nehemiah]

Does anyone know what color these pants in the floor were? I assume they were a light color? Has the color been documented somewhere?

So, we have pants on the floor lying inside out; we have a balled up turtleneck on the counter. We have Patsy initially saying that JB went to bed in the turtleneck, but that was retracted.

Interesting thought, UK Guy, about the bath. LE questioned Patsy about the last bath that JB had had. I always assumed it was because of the DNA issue, but you never know what their motive was in asking about that.

We are making the perp a very busy person on Christmas Night.

 

[Nehemiah]

Another thought with all these possible changes of clothes...

What if JB came home and was up romping around instead of sleeping. Perhaps she did fall asleep in the car but when she got home was up and going. Do we know from any documentation that JB had a habit of getting dressed and sleeping in her clothes? (One of my sons did that for several years when he was her age. He would put on his clothes at bedtime and sleep in them so that the next morning, if he had to get up early, he would already be dressed! I think this is quite common with little kids who don't especially like to get up in the mornings and be prodded/poked about getting ready and out the door.) Anyway, this is a stretch, I know. But it would fall into place with her having on those pants and that top, and perhaps actually going to bed in that turtleneck?

 

[UKGuy]

There was a urine stain on the floor in the basement.

Thanks for that, JonBenet's autopsy stated:

Bladder: The bladder is contracted and contains no urine. The bladder mucosa is smooth and tan-gray. No intrinsic abnormalities are seen.

Do you know if the urine stain in the basement would be consistent with JonBenet evacuating her bladder there ?

 

[tipper]

It sounded to me like it was. My recollection is the urine was outside the wine cellar door. If I get a chance today I'll see if I can find the reference.

 

[UKGuy]

Another thought with all these possible changes of clothes...

What if JB came home and was up romping around instead of sleeping. Perhaps she did fall asleep in the car but when she got home was up and going. Do we know from any documentation that JB had a habit of getting dressed and sleeping in her clothes? (One of my sons did that for several years when he was her age. He would put on his clothes at bedtime and sleep in them so that the next morning, if he had to get up early, he would already be dressed! I think this is quite common with little kids who don't especially like to get up in the mornings and be prodded/poked about getting ready and out the door.) Anyway, this is a stretch, I know. But it would fall into place with her having on those pants and that top, and perhaps actually going to bed in that turtleneck?

Nehemiah,

Yes , why not, perfectly possible. JonBenet liked dressing up, I am not certain how much she dressed her dolls etc.

Another thought is, what if she wore no underwear, only jeans ? Lets put it down to laziness on her part.

Along darker lines what if she redressed herself in those jeans, possibly no underwear, along with the turleneck, after being abused and due to the trauma had an accident? On the same theme were the jeans and turleneck discarded after being abused because she may have felt dirty?

 

[Toltec]

So...what top did she wear to play in Christmas day??? If JonBenet removed the soiled pants...then where is the top? It should have been in the bathroom too since she was undressing in there.

 

[narlacat]

Maybe she didnt remove her top, just the soiled pants. If the White's were like everyone else in this case, we would have photo's to see what she wore to the White's party.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe she didnt remove her top, just the soiled pants. If the White's were like everyone else in this case, we would have photo's to see what she wore to the White's party.

JonBenet wore the white gap top to the White's party.

 

[UKGuy]

So...what top did she wear to play in Christmas day??? If JonBenet removed the soiled pants...then where is the top? It should have been in the bathroom too since she was undressing in there.

Toltec,

I dont recall seeing this mentioned anywhere. Now from memory did JonBenet not spend part of xmas day in bed, or was this prior to xmas?

In her xmas day photo she is wearing the pink pijamas, that were to be seen on her bed in another crime-scene photo. So I wonder why Patsy had to dress her in those longjohns?

Not unless the whole story is fabricated to explain away the anomalies in her bedtime saga?

How about if JonBenet wore her jeans and turtleneck out to play on her bike?

Then possibly afterwards she has a wash , changes into the black velvet pants and the white gap top.

After the Whites party possibly she changes into something similar and casual?


From some of those crime-scene bedroom photos I got the impression that JonBenet may have undressed in her bedroom, her clothes were strewn over the bed and chairs etc.

 

[capps]

17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point
18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those
19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;
20 trying to account for those being there.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine
22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out
23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she
24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.
25 What she had on earlier that day, I just
0459
1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just
2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,
3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left
4 them there.

In the above statement Patsy says: "gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's ..."
Did she mean to say "gotten dressed" in stead of "gotten the dress",because the common knowledge is that she wore a white blouse and velvet pants,which Patsy also states further in the interview. Might have been a typo by the interviewer?

Just thinking out loud ...

I don't think Patsy did it ... but sometimes I wish she would get her thoughts together,and speak in complete sentences!!