What does Linda Arndt know?

[MsArk]

I never said anything about bizarre instruments UKguy. I was simply suggesting that digital penetration via childhood masturbation might have been a theory offered to explain the chronic injuries. I don't think thats what happened but I think that it would have been brought up by the defence if the Ramsey's had ever been charged.

I doubt they would have been very successful with that defense. Female children who are six years old and have never been abused are not aware digital penetration is even a "thing"! Young children know what feels good with self exploration but IMO they would be hard pressed to find an expert that would include penetration as part of normal self exploration with a six year old girl.
Imagining a female juror would believe that borders on preposterous. MOO.

 

[otg]

I never said anything about bizarre instruments UKguy. I was simply suggesting that digital penetration via childhood masturbation might have been a theory offered to explain the chronic injuries. I don't think thats what happened but I think that it would have been brought up by the defence if the Ramsey's had ever been charged.

I doubt they would have been very successful with that defense. Female children who are six years old and have never been abused are not aware digital penetration is even a "thing"! Young children know what feels good with self exploration but IMO they would be hard pressed to find an expert that would include penetration as part of normal self exploration with a six year old girl.
Imagining a female juror would believe that borders on preposterous. MOO.

I absolutely agree with you, MrsArk, that the idea is preposterous (as well as being repugnant and offensive to the sensibilities of most people who might be chosen for a jury). But unfortunately, that wouldn’t prevent a defense attorney from presenting that as a possible cause for some of the injuries. In fact, it was something that had been taken into consideration by at least one child sexual abuse expert who was consulted (bbm):

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.
​

But while considering this as a possible defense tactic, none of those experts actually believed it to be a real possibility:

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation.
​

(Quotes are taken from The Bonita Papers.)

 

[andreww]

. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.[/COLOR]
[/INDENT]

(Quotes are taken from The Bonita Papers.)

So basically exactly what I said.

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[TeaTime]

Why on Earth did LA mentally count her bullets when JR carried JBR upstairs? With whom did she expect a shoot out? She wondered who would be alive after what??? Just who was she going to have to shoot and why? Is this not odd?

 

[andreww]

Why on Earth did LA mentally count her bullets when JR carried JBR upstairs? With whom did she expect a shoot out? She wondered who would be alive after what??? Just who was she going to have to shoot and why? Is this not odd?

I think that was a bit of an over dramatic way of saying that it became clear to her that she was not in a home full of oddly acting victim as she had thought. She realized that she was more than likely in the midst of one or more murderers, and that it wasn't exactly a safe situation. Obviously she wasn't expecting a shootout, but she did have to keep her eyes open. Who knows how these people might have acted if she had started to make them feel threatened in any way? Remember, she was alone and heavily outnumbered, and these people seemed to have just brutally murdered their own six year old child.

It may seem crazy now that we know how the Ramsey's have carried themselves since, but I think the threat she felt was merited at that point in time.


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[TeaTime]

Where did I read that LA discussed with FW that the perp will lead you to the body if you let them? I think FW brought it up and LA told him to ask JR to search the house from top to bottom again but FW said "it would be better coming from you". But I know that LA and someone discussed the belief that in such situations, the perp will be the one to find the body when no one else can - because it is hidden.

 

[andreww]

Where did I read that LA discussed with FW that the perp will lead you to the body if you let them? I think FW brought it up and LA told him to ask JR to search the house from top to bottom again but FW said "it would be better coming from you". But I know that LA and someone discussed the belief that in such situations, the perp will be the one to find the body when no one else can - because it is hidden.

I really don't think LA ever thought this was anything more than a kidnapping. She noticed that people were acting strangely but I don't thing she put two and two together. I think if she had any inclination that John was involved in this, she would not have sent him on an evidence finding mission.

 

[TeaTime]

andreww - LE in general saw red flags immediately, LA heard their opinions before she arrived on the scene. After a few hours in the presence of the Rs and their friends, she knew exactly what she was doing. She had a gut instinct and sent the 2 men on a search, knowing that the true perp would 'locate' the body. It was risky but successful, the body was found but of course, the crime scene was destroyed by JR & FW. FW had seen that tape before and JR was now saying it was over her mouth. He went back to the wine cellar to look at that scene a few times. He was gobsmacked that he didn't notice a dead child wrapped in a white blanket laying on the floor in the middle of a quite bare, small space right in front of the door! They want him to think HE is crazy.

LA looked into JR's eyes as he lay JBR onto the floor at the top of the basement stairs and saw something that made her mentally count her bullets. She knows what she saw and it was the face of a person who knew exactly how the child died. She knew instantly that this was a set-up, the cover-up of a familial homicide, ( her specialty was 'women in crises' and she was trained to handle crimes against women and children), her instincts were right, she saw through him in that instant and knew no one would ever be prosecuted, then lost control of the crime scene as everyone and their brother threw blankets, sweatshirts and throws over the body, clung to it, stroked it. Terror and horror for all but the remaining R children.

I don't know if John Douglas talks about perps intentionally contaminating the crime scene, but LA knew LE had all been had and it was already too late to fix it. PR and JR were running a hotel, with guests and LE coming and going all over the house, as the child lay dead in the cellar.

The timing of the finding of the body just happened to coincide nicely with the older children's arrival in Boulder and the whole family, friends to boot, were ushered from the house. NONE of the other children saw what JBR looked like in death. They were all spared. BR was ushered away at 7am, arrangements had to be made for the other kids to land in MI and get a flight out to CO. Just as they arrive - no one can enter the house.

It all started clicking together for LA.

 

[Occams Razor]

Linda Arndt certainly was "scared" of John on the morning of the murder. So strange that she became all buddy-buddy with Ratsy later on. Makes me think Patsy confided in her that John was abusive...not physically abusive but perhaps in other ways. Didn't Arndt work with victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse before becoming a detective? I may be remembering that wrong.

Anyway, I doubt PR told LA the whole series of events that night, but it was probably strongly implied that John (or somebody other than Patsy) was guilty of the murder. LA wouldn't have stayed close friends with a confessed killer, one would hope.

Arndt should do the right thing and come forward with what she knows. I won't hold my breath.

 

[TeaTime]

LA didn't get any scoop from PR, she knew it was a familial homicide as soon as she saw JR's eyes.

 

[andreww]

andreww - LE in general saw red flags immediately, LA heard their opinions before she arrived on the scene. After a few hours in the presence of the Rs and their friends, she knew exactly what she was doing. She had a gut instinct and sent the 2 men on a search, knowing that the true perp would 'locate' the body. It was risky but successful, the body was found but of course, the crime scene was destroyed by JR & FW. FW had seen that tape before and JR was now saying it was over her mouth. He went back to the wine cellar to look at that scene a few times. He was gobsmacked that he didn't notice a dead child wrapped in a white blanket laying on the floor in the middle of a quite bare, small space right in front of the door! They want him to think HE is crazy.

LA looked into JR's eyes as he lay JBR onto the floor at the top of the basement stairs and saw something that made her mentally count her bullets. She knows what she saw and it was the face of a person who knew exactly how the child died. She knew instantly that this was a set-up, the cover-up of a familial homicide, ( her specialty was 'women in crises' and she was trained to handle crimes against women and children), her instincts were right, she saw through him in that instant and knew no one would ever be prosecuted, then lost control of the crime scene as everyone and their brother threw blankets, sweatshirts and throws over the body, clung to it, stroked it. Terror and horror for all but the remaining R children.

I don't know if John Douglas talks about perps intentionally contaminating the crime scene, but LA knew LE had all been had and it was already too late to fix it. PR and JR were running a hotel, with guests and LE coming and going all over the house, as the child lay dead in the cellar.

The timing of the finding of the body just happened to coincide nicely with the older children's arrival in Boulder and the whole family, friends to boot, were ushered from the house. NONE of the other children saw what JBR looked like in death. They were all spared. BR was ushered away at 7am, arrangements had to be made for the other kids to land in MI and get a flight out to CO. Just as they arrive - no one can enter the house.

It all started clicking together for LA.

I think your imagination is getting the better of you on this one. As far as I know, the only red flags that were raise were by the FBI guys who thought the note was bogus and that she would be found dead. But, correct me if I'm wrong here, the FBI guys were not at the scene, and as the note needed to be properly collected, then copied and transported to the FBI guys. Seems like they wouldn't have seen it until later that morning, and I doubt very much that their 'hunch" would have ever have been communicated to Arndt. If Arndt had in fact suspected a murder and the possibility of a body in the house, when did she make a request for a thorough search or a cadaver dog? She didn't. Police officers generally follow procedures, and I guarantee you that there is no procedure that includes sending suspects on a body hunt.

In my opinion Arndt was simply weak. This was her crime scene, she should have treated it as such. Certainly the Ramseys never ending parade of house guests should have been denied entrance, or have been booted. She should then have conducted a thorough search of the home. She lost control of that crime scene simply because she did not properly control it.

 

[andreww]

Linda Arndt certainly was "scared" of John on the morning of the murder. So strange that she became all buddy-buddy with Ratsy later on. Makes me think Patsy confided in her that John was abusive...not physically abusive but perhaps in other ways. Didn't Arndt work with victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse before becoming a detective? I may be remembering that wrong.

Anyway, I doubt PR told LA the whole series of events that night, but it was probably strongly implied that John (or somebody other than Patsy) was guilty of the murder. LA wouldn't have stayed close friends with a confessed killer, one would hope.

Arndt should do the right thing and come forward with what she knows. I won't hold my breath.

Okay, she wasn't scared of John. her initial impression was that he was "cordial". She says that like its a bad thing, but how would you expect him to act? She may have been suspicious, she may have been paranoid, but I don't think that John did one thing that could be construed as threatening. And any cop that say something to the effect of "I could see in his eyes that he was the murderer" is simply not a very good cop. End of story.

 

[TeaTime]

I think your imagination is getting the better of you on this one. As far as I know, the only red flags that were raise were by the FBI guys who thought the note was bogus and that she would be found dead. But, correct me if I'm wrong here, the FBI guys were not at the scene, and as the note needed to be properly collected, then copied and transported to the FBI guys. Seems like they wouldn't have seen it until later that morning, and I doubt very much that their 'hunch" would have ever have been communicated to Arndt. If Arndt had in fact suspected a murder and the possibility of a body in the house, when did she make a request for a thorough search or a cadaver dog? She didn't. Police officers generally follow procedures, and I guarantee you that there is no procedure that includes sending suspects on a body hunt.

In my opinion Arndt was simply weak. This was her crime scene, she should have treated it as such. Certainly the Ramseys never ending parade of house guests should have been denied entrance, or have been booted. She should then have conducted a thorough search of the home. She lost control of that crime scene simply because she did not properly control it.

The first officers and rank on the scene were local. They met with LA before she went to the house and got her up to speed on the circumstances and what they witnessed while there and their hinkey meters were ringing off the hook. FACT.

LA was left at the house alone and her superiors told her that only JBR's bedroom was considered a crime scene. Thus, she could not legally remove anyone from the scene or limit their movement other than into JBR's bedroom. FACT. Of course, there is no procedure to send suspects on a body hunt, but human behavior is predictable and if you let them, the suspect will often deliver the body. LA took a risk, it paid off because the body was delivered. Just like in the note, it was picked-up and delivered.

 

[andreww]

The first officers and rank on the scene were local. They met with LA before she went to the house and got her up to speed on the circumstances and what they witnessed while there and their hinkey meters were ringing off the hook. FACT.

LA was left at the house alone and her superiors told her that only JBR's bedroom was considered a crime scene. Thus, she could not legally remove anyone from the scene or limit their movement other than into JBR's bedroom. FACT. Of course, there is no procedure to send suspects on a body hunt, but human behavior is predictable and if you let them, the suspect will often deliver the body. LA took a risk, it paid off because the body was delivered. Just like in the note, it was picked-up and delivered.

Sorry, I really don't believe or agree with anything you've said here. You mean to tell me that several LE officers showed up and suspected that the little girl was likely not kidnapped, but probably dead in the house? And they ALL just left? Seriously? What more important things would they have had to do the day after Christmas in the sleepy town of Boulder? Me thinks that there were a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks that when the body was found were quick to say "I suspected it all along". Why no thorough search? Why no cadaver dogs?

As for Arndt's behaviour, who said that the house needed to be declared a crime scene in order for her to clear it? Cops can rightfully clear bystanders away from anything they are working on.

And your whole point about her taking a risk and having it pay off is just ridiculous. If she had known or suspected that there was a body in the house, sending John to look for it was absolutely the stupid move in the history of policing. But she has never said that was her motive, only that she was trying to keep people occupied as the situation was becoming uncomfortable.

FACT.


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[TeaTime]

Andrew - please try to not put words into my statements here. I do not want to argue with you on our different opinions, but try to respond to what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I did not write that the first officers thought there was a dead body in the house and left anyway; not even close. They told LA that things didn't add up at the house, there was something very suspect about the whole scene and alerted her to that fact that there was no sign of forced entry, the parents' behavior was odd and that they were very suspicious of the whole story they were told.

I say that LA was obeying her superiors who gave her orders to stay with the folks in the house and that only the bedroom was a crime scene. Argue all you want but she had NO authority to remove them from the house. In fact, she was told the whole gang could stay.

Believe what you want about why she sent JR to search the house, she knew if there was anything to be found, he would 'discover' it. And, he did.

Why did they not bring in dogs? Who knows. I can't answer for the lead investigators or explain their actions or inactions.

 

[andreww]

Andrew - please try to not put words into my statements here. I do not want to argue with you on our different opinions, but try to respond to what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I did not write that the first officers thought there was a dead body in the house and left anyway; not even close. They told LA that things didn't add up at the house, there was something very suspect about the whole scene and alerted her to that fact that there was no sign of forced entry, the parents' behavior was odd and that they were very suspicious of the whole story they were told.

I say that LA was obeying her superiors who gave her orders to stay with the folks in the house and that only the bedroom was a crime scene. Argue all you want but she had NO authority to remove them from the house. In fact, she was told the whole gang could stay.

Believe what you want about why she sent JR to search the house, she knew if there was anything to be found, he would 'discover' it. And, he did.

Why did they not bring in dogs? Who knows. I can't answer for the lead investigators or explain their actions or inactions.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You were the one that brought up the idea of Arndt saying to Fleet that "The perp will lead you to the body".

So tell me, when exactly did Arndt come up with the notion that John was the perp and that there was a body in the house? I'm not saying that you are wrong about this, I have just never seen a quote from her nor Fleet that she said this. My evaluation of Arndt based on the interviews I've seen from her and her actions that day is that she is not a great cop, probably verging on incompetent.

Sorry

 

[TeaTime]

I think it became quite clear that there was no kidnapping and therefore the next plausible scenario is the cover-up of a familial homicide. By 1pm when there was no ransom call and officers were already suspicious of the Rs behavior, I am going to make a leap and say that LA's instinct and training was allowed to form her conclusions, and she realized what had really happened. We are not all LE and even we could make that leap in light of the evidence and lack thereof at the house.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Nothing.. Linda was over her head and made stuff up to try and make herself look better.

 

[andreww]

And if Arndt was so sure John was guilty, she must have been smart enough to realize that Patsy was certainly involved as well. So why did she end up becoming a life long friend, even visiting her on her death bed?

So many mixed messages from that woman.


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[Annapurna]

PR was probably manipulative as hell. She probably soothed any of LA's suspicions with that Southern warmth & charm. They were damn good at playing victim also. LA being predisposed to seeing women as victims would have accepted that more easily.

I don't think she was a bad cop, in over her head for sure. I suspect there was a bit of hindsight coloring her memories. I have no doubt she was creeped out by the family, JR especially (according to her). However the media attention and the memory of the case most likely is what influenced that interview.