What is considered CONTROLLING?

[jmflu]

The cash only system started this year. The necklace was bought last year.

Cash only?

 

[ncsu95]

Cash only?

Yes, doing a $300 cash budget per week.

 

[justthinking2008]

I think that water dancing has a valid point.

NC's behavior is also relevant in that it could explain the context of Brad's behavior.

If NC had saved money, lived within their means, etc and Brad suddenly removed her access to the accounts, his behavior could be looked at as controlling. Because it has been documented and established that she spent money they didn't have, and in direct disagreement with Brad (the $9K painting) his behavior is justified as a reaction to hers.

And while 2 wrongs don't make a right, her earlier affair may have set the tone as to what was acceptable behavior in a marriage.

How about the arguments? It appears that yelling and the raising of voices was not uncommon. If both are yelling, do you only call one person out for being aggressive, or setting a bad example, or being a bad parent if this was in front of the children?

The taking of passports - if this was in reaction to a threat to take the children to Canada - is this not something that any of us would do? (Now, we can argue WHY he took them - to control her, or to keep access to the children because he loved them, but since he's not talking, we can only point to the action)

The following to the gas station.... If I was on a budget and couldn't feed a family of 4 on $1200 a month, and was continually running out of money, and then said I had no money for gas, would you just hand over $$ to me, or would you PUT GAS IN MY CAR to see it with your very own eyes? Checking the mileage on a car, calling if someone is one minute late, verifying their whereabouts - that's controlling. Putting gas in a car based on the poor cash management issue, I will contend is not.

So - the context in which many of these actions take place is very relevant. And her friends are going to give the worst possible context - either because they want to support her, or she was less than fair in her explanation of the "whys".

I am more concerned about the action that don't really appear to be "in response" to things - or are odd in themselves- like the list that RC put together in the other thread than the controlling items that in themselves don't prove anything and sometimes - I think are NORMAL reactions to their financial situation, or their pending separation / divorce.

Raleigh, points well made. Even though Newton's law of motion was not meant to apply to people, I think the law for "every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" may hold true to people as well.

 

[cygnusx1]

It seems silly to me that he would actually not think she would use the $30 or $40 he gave her for gas. Did he think she would risk running out of gas and being stranded somewhere?

Several thousand for a necklace, but can't trust her with less than $50 for gas?

1) I don't know about the $30-40 figure. But wouldn't that cover the cost of the items for the birthday party?
2) I presume the necklace was purchased during their spending hey-day, not when they were tightening the budget.

 

[RaleighNC]

Depending on when this fill up occurred - that vehicle has a 22.5 gallon tank and requires premium fuel. it's not $30-$40 (I wish)

And yes - if someone was consistently running out of money on a $300 a week "allowance" for food (HOW? those kids were not teeenage boys!) I suspect money was going out the door for stuff other than "necessities" and then discussing the need for more for "the basics". It also would be more memorable to your friends to say you didn't have enough money for food for the children and not that you couldn't buy new jeans.

And yes it may be demeaning - but wouldn't knowingly putting yourself on a path toward bankruptcy be demeaning, too? Or having to sell your house to pay your credit card bills be demeaning? Cause that's where they were headed.

 

[SleuthyGal]

I read in at least 2 affys that only enough gas was put in NC's car to run a few local errands around town. So BC putting gas into NC's car wasn't such a big deal (though following her to do it seems a bit extreme) but the point where he's only putting in a few gallons, that raised a red flag to me (if it's true). And I don't buy the 'cost of gas' excuse that might be proposed...if one can afford (or justify) owning or leasing a BMW X5, then obviously one knows that gas is needed to run the vehicle. And without gas, one's movements are certainly curtailed!

 

[cygnusx1]

I read in a at least 2 affys that only enough gas was put in NC's car to run a few local errands around town. So BC putting gas into NC's car wasn't such a big deal (though following her to do it seems a bit extreme) but the point where he's only putting in a few gallons, that raised a red flag to me (if it's true). And I don't buy the 'cost of gas' excuse that might be proposed...if one can afford (or justify) owning or leasing a BMW X5, then obviously one knows that gas is needed to run the vehicle. And without gas, one's movements are certainly curtailed!

And I have read in his affy that he filled her car on at least two occasions and he claims he can back it with receipts/CC statements.

 

[justthinking2008]

SG,

So the receipt he had for gas showing he filled up the tank must be a fake? Also how about the affidavit saying there was no room for BC in the car. Has it occurred to anyone that they were in such dire financial straights that they no longer had credit cards other than bank debit, and maybe he did not have more than $300.00 a week to give her. As far as owning expensive cars go, it is now well documented they were living above their means, car payment or gas may have been the choice.

 

[Albert]

but can't trust her with less than $50 for gas?

It's not trusting with $50 for gas as much as it could have been trusting the fact that all $50 went for gas.

 

[cygnusx1]

SG,

So the receipt he had for gas showing he filled up the tank must be a fake? Also how about the affidavit saying there was no room for BC in the car. Has it occurred to anyone that they were in such dire financial straights that they no longer had credit cards other than bank debit, and maybe he did not have more than $300.00 a week to give her. As far as owning expensive cars go, it is now well documented they were living above their means, car payment or gas may have been the choice.

Unfortunately, the statement about filling her tank in his affidavit is for May 22, and June 28 but Krista was here in March. He doesn't state how much he put in at that time.

It's entirely likely however, that since the X5 is the larger car, that they used it as the family car and he filled it whenever it needed gas when the whole family was out. But it was empty that weekend and since he couldn't fit in the car with everyone else, he tagged along in his own car when running the errands. First stop was to get gas in the X5.

 

[SleuthyGal]

SG,

So the receipt he had for gas showing he filled up the tank must be a fake? Also how about the affidavit saying there was no room for BC in the car. Has it occurred to anyone that they were in such dire financial straights that they no longer had credit cards other than bank debit, and maybe he did not have more than $300.00 a week to give her. As far as owning expensive cars go, it is now well documented they were living above their means, car payment or gas may have been the choice.

I don't doubt that he has a receipt showing he filled her car up at some point and I also don't doubt that the receipt is real (I'm going on faith here since I haven't seen the receipt). As for no room in the car when KL was visiting and they went shopping for Bday party supplies, I never understood why he felt he had to go to each store with NC and her sister in the first place and decide what would get purchased for the Bday party. He spent double the gas by following them around in his car!

He could have easily handed them $50 or $100 and said "this is the budget for the party and that's all there is; choose wisely." Then Nancy & her sister could make their choices based on that amount of money, since it would be all they had. That seems like a reasonable way to ensure budget compliance, doesn't it?

But following them to each store, deciding exactly what would get purchased and what would not...that implies a level of control that was unnecessary for budgeting constraints, and he's spending his time (precious time) going on these errands. Why? Why was it so important to follow Nancy and her sister around to each store? I said this once before, but I had more freedom and latitude with my allowance at 8 years old than Nancy had at that time. Why did Nancy have to be treated like a child?

Do you believe Krista lied in her affy? Because she detailed all of these events, including the situation where Nancy's car did not have enough gas in it, in her affy. That affy was signed under oath.

 

[Albert]

But it was empty that weekend and since he couldn't fit in the car with everyone else, he tagged along in his own car when running the errands.

Do we know that the X5 was full of passengers while Brad was tagging along?

 

[cygnusx1]

Do we know that the X5 was full of passengers while Brad was tagging along?

Presumably the kids were in the X5. If not, where were they? That's two adults and 2 kids in car seats. That generation of X5 has two rows of seats. Apparently 2009 is the first year they are offering a third row of seats.

 

[SleuthyGal]

So Brad couldn't afford to put more gas in Nancy's car, but yet he CAN afford to burn the (expensive) gas that's in his BMW, along with the (expensive) gas that's in Nancy's car, by following them to each store? What a waste of fuel!

 

[justthinking2008]

sg,

Another thought, he may have feared that NC and KL would run with the children back to Canada. His taking the girls passports had little bearing on their ability to enter Canada with their mother who was a Canadian. Maybe he also wanted some input into how the girls party was to be handled, maybe all he wanted was to be included. It has been said that he is very socially inept, and if NC was given to exaggerations maybe KL is too. I am not going to accuse KL or anyone else of anything, but my personal opinion at this point is that KL and her parents will say or do anything to keep BC's children. We are back to looking at controlling behaviors.

 

[SleuthyGal]

They were in the middle of planning Bella's Bday party...Brad had already arranged the pony ride, they were buying cake and balloons. I understand wanting to be included and have input; I don't understand saying "No" to a $3 balloon for Bella that Nancy wanted to purchase.

So KL might be prone to 'exaggeration' even though there hasn't been any evidence shown to warrant this belief, but you don't doubt any of Brad's statements? Why not? Why is he believable and yet none of the affiants on the plaintiff's side are given the same courtesy of belief?

I think his actions that day were a very good example of 'controlling' behavior. He made every decision, said 'no' to the littlest things (no discussion), and please tell me what normal man do you know would really be interested in which paper plates and cups were purchased? I mean, do you really think that's what this was about?

And why would he be afraid that Nancy and sis would take off that day and escape? Did they have bags packed and in the car? Were bags packed for the kids? (no evidence of that). Nancy had no money and did not have the kids' passports. Where could she go? She didn't have enough gas in her car!

 

[ncsu95]

I don't doubt that he has a receipt showing he filled her car up at some point and I also don't doubt that the receipt is real (I'm going on faith here since I haven't seen the receipt). As for no room in the car when KL was visiting and they went shopping for Bday party supplies, I never understood why he felt he had to go to each store with NC and her sister in the first place and decide what would get purchased for the Bday party. He spent double the gas by following them around in his car!

He could have easily handed them $50 or $100 and said "this is the budget for the party and that's all there is; choose wisely." Then Nancy & her sister could make their choices based on that amount of money, since it would be all they had. That seems like a reasonable way to ensure budget compliance, doesn't it?

But following them to each store, deciding exactly what would get purchased and what would not...that implies a level of control that was unnecessary for budgeting constraints, and he's spending his time (precious time) going on these errands. Why? Why was it so important to follow Nancy and her sister around to each store? I said this once before, but I had more freedom and latitude with my allowance at 8 years old than Nancy had at that time. Why did Nancy have to be treated like a child?

Do you believe Krista lied in her affy? Because she detailed all of these events, including the situation where Nancy's car did not have enough gas in it, in her affy. That affy was signed under oath.

Maybe she wanted him to. Didn't he have a lot of responsibilities with that party? I know the pony thing didn't go over well, but wasn't he the one responsible for setting all that up?

 

[SleuthyGal]

Maybe she wanted him to. Didn't he have a lot of responsibilities with that party? I know the pony thing didn't go over well, but wasn't he the one responsible for setting all that up?

He did setup the pony thing and he did the BBQing of the burgers/hotdogs at the party. Which makes me wonder, since he had responsibilities already, why he cared about which paper plates/cups got purchased? And why he cared enough to say NO to a balloon for Bella that Nancy wanted to purchase...a $3 balloon.

 

[ncsu95]

He did setup the pony thing and he did the BBQing of the burgers/hotdogs at the party. Which makes me wonder, since he had responsibilities already, why he cared about which paper plates/cups got purchased? And why he cared enough to say NO to a balloon for Bella that Nancy wanted to purchase...a $3 balloon.

I've cared about paper plates and cups for our daughters birthdays. Of course, we do the whole written budget thingy...but these kids parties can get way out of control But my wife and I actually have had conversations about paper plates/cups and which balloons were appropriate to stay within a budget.

 

[cygnusx1]

So Brad couldn't afford to put more gas in Nancy's car, but yet he CAN afford to burn the (expensive) gas that's in his BMW, along with the (expensive) gas that's in Nancy's car, by following them to each store? What a waste of fuel!

It was a matter of making sure that the money was used only for fuel. She and apparently KL have expensive tastes and could not be trusted with the money during this budget crunch.

Using Restoration Hardware paint for a quick sale of a house? What a waste of money ($4/4oz sampler, $36/gal). This was not a re-decoration project. Throw some neutral-colored paint on the walls and get it over with. Walmart/Lowes/Home Depot/Target all have sufficient paint to freshen up the walls for re-sale at 1/3-1/2 the price of RH paint.