Where Precisely Do You Think Caylee Died?

[Anais]

snipped by me,

is this what you're looking for?
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5686811/Casey-Anthony-Tony-Lazzaro-transcript-Sept-8-2008

Yes this is the one!

Thank you, thank you so much! I could not find it....sometimes I think that I may be on information overload and lose my mind! LOL!

 

[tlcya]

I think you're right about alot of this, specifically the first and last paragraphs, but I'm not sure about the middle part taking place as you suggest...
I don't believe Cindy lovingly tucked them in after a big fight, nor do I believe she heard them breathing through the door the next morning, nor do I believe George saw them leave the next day.

huh? I didn't have anything like the above described in my post and agree with you that the events you describe above are not believable in the least. I think you may have gotten my post mixed up with another poster.

During the middle part of my theorizing is the time when I think G and C A were out of town and Casey was sleeping over at various friends houses.

 

[tlcya]

My thoughts are similar to yours Anias on the what if no one had called the A's out about the pregnancy. I feel the family was going to attempt to adopt the baby out or pass it off as a "late in life" baby of G and A so as to deflect the stigma of the wild unmarried pregnant daughter.

 

[Jolynna]

I think Caylee died in the trunk of the car. Here's how I have always envisioned this playing out.

The big fight with the A's happen, Casey storms off with Caylee. She has no job, no place to live, no prospects. She is very driven by the attention from males that her party lifestyle garners her. She starts crashing at various friends houses. Caylee is a huge liability. How do you party and clubhop while draggin your toddler along with you? Can't dump her on mom and dad (like she usually does). So we use a lie we've used inthe past. The old Invisazannynanny line. "where's Caylee? Oh she's with the nanny." She begins playing with the clorophorm recipe as a means to knock caylee out and make her more manageable while mom is off partying. I think she feared leaving Caylee in a home because what if she woke up, and raised an alarm that she was unsupervised.

That is why I have always believed that child died in the trunk of that car. She put her in the trunk so that she would be "near" Casey, where she could not be seen by others, and as an added precaution she placed duct tape over that baby's mouth so that in the event she awakened and cried out she would not be heard.

I don't think she specifically planned on her child's death. I can so vividly imagine her coming out of a club, drunk, happy, full of sexy self, high on her attention fix, feeling in control, like she got away with something, opening the trunk to remove Caylee, discovering her dead. The panic, the selfish "oh crap, this is gonna mess up MY life" moment. I can see it as if I was there.

She then goes home to the A's house to try to figure out what next, how to dispose of the body? This is where the heart shaped sticker comes into play. That damn sticker that haunts me. She takes the sticker from Caylee's room and places on the duct tape over her dead child's mouth. A final "loving" kiss from mommy. She wraps the body in the garbage bags. She drives around with the body for days, trying to figure out what to do, where to get rid of it. When the car starts to smell of decomp, her time is up. she must DO something. That is why the body ended up where it did. I think she dumped Caylee there because she was comfortable with the area, knew that location is full of brush, snakes and floods regularly. She pulls over one day and dumps little Caylee's remains like so much garbage.

MOO

Fibers were found in Caylee's mass of hair and under the duct tape but none of the fibers were Pontiac car carpet fibers. I think that means Caylee was bagged before she went into the trunk. I don't think Casey would use bagging Caylee up alive, duct-taping over half of Caylee's face and throwing Caylee into the trunk as a way to get daycare.

 

[tlcya]

If she drugged, duct taped Caylee prior to placing her (still alive) in the trunk as I feel she did, I would nto have expected there to be pontiac fibers on the tape. I don't believe the body was "bagged" as a form of daycare. I believe the chlorphorm was being used as a form of daycare. The baggin came after that went horribly awry and Caylee was already dead. all MOO

 

[cecybeans]

I haven't read that extensively on this, but have fibers from the backseat, or items in the back seat been eliminated from the theory? If Caylee was killed in the back seat of the car, and bagged shortly thereafter, she might not have had trunk fibers in her hair.

Also, she might have been placed on a blanket in the trunk and there was no trunk fiber transfer perhaps due to her position on the blanket.

 

[LinasK]

huh? I didn't have anything like the above described in my post and agree with you that the events you describe above are not believable in the least. I think you may have gotten my post mixed up with another poster.

During the middle part of my theorizing is the time when I think G and C A were out of town and Casey was sleeping over at various friends houses.

I neglected to add the word also to my 2nd paragraph, I wasn't saying you said that they went to sleep after the big fight, nor that you said Cindy heard them breathing, or about George seeing them leave...
But I'm also not sure that Caylee died in the trunk.
The parts of your post about Casey's partying and how she dumped her, I agree with you...

 

[LinasK]

If she drugged, duct taped Caylee prior to placing her (still alive) in the trunk as I feel she did, I would nto have expected there to be pontiac fibers on the tape. I don't believe the body was "bagged" as a form of daycare. I believe the chlorphorm was being used as a form of daycare. The baggin came after that went horribly awry and Caylee was already dead. all MOO

I agree that prior to June 15th, Casey may have been using Chloroform as daycare, but I don't believe this was an accidental overdose!:snooty:
Even if it was an "accidental" overdose of Chloroform or Xanax, AZLawyer has stated on the Lawyer thread, that this would still be Felony murder!

 

[Solace]

My thoughts are similar to yours Anias on the what if no one had called the A's out about the pregnancy. I feel the family was going to attempt to adopt the baby out or pass it off as a "late in life" baby of G and A so as to deflect the stigma of the wild unmarried pregnant daughter.

tlcox,

Casey did not put Caylee in the garbage bag for at least two days. Caylee had been in the trunk for two days and started to "purge" and the odor was horrific. This was around June 18th or 19th. June 19th was when the temperature got very hot.

Caylee originally was put in a laundry bag and the fluids soaked through and left the stain in the trunk. Forensics know this because the purging was from the nose and mouth. Purging gets much worse as time goes on and this did not happen in the trunk. So she was moved within two days.

She drove back to the house and got garbage bag and placed Caylee in it - leaving the circular fluid evidence in the trunk. She got rid of the body on June 19th.

George told the FBI he believed there had been a dead body in the car and went on to say he was being straight and did not want to believe that a child of his could do this to another person. George says he came home on the 15th and saw Caylee in bed but did not see Casey and does not remember seeing her car there, but did see them the next morning. He says Cindy saw Caylee the next morning with him. Cindy says she did not look in Casey's room that morning and did not see either of them.

What I don't understand is how George could not have smelled the odor on the 24th (when Casey showed up at the house) since he went to the back of the car to get the gas cans, etc. That is five or six days after the body was moved. The odor got progressively worse and was horrific by July 16th. I understand the car still smelled a year later.

Maybe her putting things over the stain stopped it for a short while and George did not smell it or maybe he is exactly what he appears - an incredible moron - who did not want to know and just shrugged the odor off - he says he smelled nothing.

I don't see him lying about seeing Casey and Caylee leaving on June 16th. At the point he said that to the FBI and the detectives, he also told him he believed there was decomposition in the trunk. He does not change till later.

So Casey killed her child somwhere between 1:00 p.m. and say 5:00 p.m. She was calling her home around 3 or 4 furiously - imo to see who was home and to get the laundry bag.

She is definitely killed before nightfall as Casey is seen at Blockbuster in the evening with Tony.

What I don't know (and maybe someone else does) is after a person is put out by chloroform as Caylee was, and tape is wrapped around her mouth, would her body react to be smothered or would she just sleep and die.

Something I think we will find out at trial. Becuase if there is prolonged suffering - Casey is in deep trouble with a death sentence looming.

 

[Solace]

tlcox,

Casey did not put Caylee in the garbage bag for at least two days. Caylee had been in the trunk for two days and started to "purge" and the odor was horrific. This was around June 18th or 19th. June 19th was when the temperature got very hot.

Caylee originally was put in a laundry bag and the fluids soaked through and left the stain in the trunk. Forensics know this because the purging was from the nose and mouth. Purging gets much worse as time goes on and this did not happen in the trunk. So she was moved within two days.

She drove back to the house and got garbage bag and placed Caylee in it - leaving the circular fluid evidence in the trunk. She got rid of the body on June 19th.

George told the FBI he believed there had been a dead body in the car and went on to say he was being straight and did not want to believe that a child of his could do this to another person. George says he came home on the 15th and saw Caylee in bed but did not see Casey and does not remember seeing her car there, but did see them the next morning. He says Cindy saw Caylee the next morning with him. Cindy says she did not look in Casey's room that morning and did not see either of them.

What I don't understand is how George could not have smelled the odor on the 24th (when Casey showed up at the house) since he went to the back of the car to get the gas cans, etc. That is five or six days after the body was moved. The odor got progressively worse and was horrific by July 16th. I understand the car still smelled a year later.

Maybe her putting things over the stain stopped it for a short while and George did not smell it or maybe he is exactly what he appears - an incredible moron - who did not want to know and just shrugged the odor off - he says he smelled nothing.

I don't see him lying about seeing Casey and Caylee leaving on June 16th. At the point he said that to the FBI and the detectives, he also told him he believed there was decomposition in the trunk. He does not change till later.

So Casey killed her child somwhere between 1:00 p.m. and say 5:00 p.m. She was calling her home around 3 or 4 furiously - imo to see who was home and to get the laundry bag.

She is definitely killed before nightfall as Casey is seen at Blockbuster in the evening with Tony.

What I don't know (and maybe someone else does) is after a person is put out by chloroform as Caylee was, and tape is wrapped around her mouth, would her body react to be smothered or would she just sleep and die.

Something I think we will find out at trial. Becuase if there is prolonged suffering - Casey is in deep trouble with a death sentence looming.

One more thing - this is an intentional murder - she says to Maya, her cellmate after seeing her mother and calls her a "*****" and a few other choice words - "now she knows how it feels".

I don't think Maya is lying because she is not lying about the chloroform as Casey admits using it in her own letters to put Caylee to sleep.

Remember she came home on the 15th and Cindy was in the pool with Caylee and Casey was about to get in and Cindy said we are just getting out - why don't you run her a bath. And once again Casey is snubbed by her mother (may not seem like much, but it is huge if there is jealously and there is here). So she is snubbed and goes in and runs the bath. That evening they have a huge fight.

Casey knows that she could just leave - but she also told another inmate that she did not want to leave Caylee with her mother when she went out because she thought they would become even closer and she did not want that. She knew her mother wanted to be with Caylee and she also knew she could have left her and just turned her phone off and went about partying. BUT, she at this point hates her mother, hates her and is not too happy with Caylee either because she is the object of Cindy's affection. This is an intentional murder caused by jealously - remember Casey did not want to have the baby to begin with.

The whole family is out and out bizarre. Didn't they hear of birth control in Orlando? And Cindy is a nurse - but wait it gets worse - George was a detective for 12 years.

I can't wait for the trial.

 

[Aedrys]

tlcox,

I don't see him lying about seeing Casey and Caylee leaving on June 16th. At the point he said that to the FBI and the detectives, he also told him he believed there was decomposition in the trunk. He does not change till later.

Snipped for space. ITA with everything but this part. In his "microscope" letter, George specifically lists June 15th as an important date to him, and not June 16th. This tells me the last time he saw Caylee was June 15th. If he had seen her on June 16th, that date would have been listed instead. Wouldn't the last day he saw Caylee be an important date? Yet he lists the day BEFORE as an important date.

I don't think either CA or GA saw Casey and Caylee on the 16th. I think they have lied about this in an effort to save Casey. Cindy mostly likely told George that he had to say the last day he saw Caylee was the 16th, and George went along with it because he always does what Cindy tells him to do. But then when he wrote his letter, he made a Freudian slip and revealed the real date when he last saw her, the 15th.

Casey stormed off with Caylee after the fight that night. Why Cindy and George didn't stop her, I don't know. They could have saved Caylee's life if they hadn't let Casey out of the house with Caylee that night, and I think that guilt eats them alive everyday. I just can't believe there would be a fight and then let's tuck and Casey and Caylee into bed. That just doesn't make any sense. And George's story about the last time he saw Caylee makes little sense as well.

 

[Solace]

Snipped for space. ITA with everything but this part. In his "microscope" letter, George specifically lists June 15th as an important date to him, and not June 16th. This tells me the last time he saw Caylee was June 15th. If he had seen her on June 16th, that date would have been listed instead. Wouldn't the last day he saw Caylee be an important date? Yet he lists the day BEFORE as an important date.

I don't think either CA or GA saw Casey and Caylee on the 16th. I think they have lied about this in an effort to save Casey. Cindy mostly likely told George that he had to say the last day he saw Caylee was the 16th, and George went along with it because he always does what Cindy tells him to do. But then when he wrote his letter, he made a Freudian slip and revealed the real date when he last saw her, the 15th.

Casey stormed off with Caylee after the fight that night. Why Cindy and George didn't stop her, I don't know. They could have saved Caylee's life if they hadn't let Casey out of the house with Caylee that night, and I think that guilt eats them alive everyday. I just can't believe there would be a fight and then let's tuck and Casey and Caylee into bed. That just doesn't make any sense. And George's story about the last time he saw Caylee makes little sense as well.

What microscopic letter?

 

[Solace]

What microscopic letter?

But she calls Tony that night (June 15th - becuase Melich and EE ask Tony about it and other calls that evening) and speaks to him several times and one is a very long conversation over an hour about 3 in the morning. The pings place her in her home I believe. So she is obviously not with Tony that night.

Also, remember that in early February when she was seeing Ricardo, she was over his house five nights a week and Cindy says the most she stayed out was twice a month.

I think they fought often and hard and this was just another fight. Remember that Casey called her a phucking idiot when she got home from jail and Annie Downing told Casey she was out of line.

It was commonplace for them to fight.

 

[Aedrys]

But she calls Tony that night (June 15th - becuase Melich and EE ask Tony about it and other calls that evening) and speaks to him several times and one is a very long conversation over an hour about 3 in the morning. The pings place her in her home I believe. So she is obviously not with Tony that night.

Also, remember that in early February when she was seeing Ricardo, she was over his house five nights a week and Cindy says the most she stayed out was twice a month.

I think they fought often and hard and this was just another fight. Remember that Casey called her a phucking idiot when she got home from jail and Annie Downing told Casey she was out of line.

It was commonplace for them to fight.

George released a letter to the media that he actually read on air called "Under the Microscope". I don't know if he actually listed the important days to him in that letter or in an interview answer about that letter, but the days that he said were important to him did not include June 16th, but June 15th. I wish I had a link to that letter or interview, but I don't and am at work, so I can't go looking for it right now.

As for the cell phone pings, they only place Casey in the vicinity of the cell tower, not exactly in her home. As long as she didn't ping off of another tower, she could be outside the home. I don't know what the range for a normal cell tower is, but I know there's been talk about this on other thread (if someone can provide that link, that would be awesome). For all we know, she went to that abandoned house, or maybe even Lee's house (I don't think he lives that far away).

I guess she could have been at home, but that just doesn't sit well with me after an awful fight where her mother choked her. I just don't see her wanting to be at home, but who knows. You could be right in that this was normal for them, to fight and then go to bed angry or something.

 

[tlcya]

I agree that prior to June 15th, Casey may have been using Chloroform as daycare, but I don't believe this was an accidental overdose!:snooty:
Even if it was an "accidental" overdose of Chloroform or Xanax, AZLawyer has stated on the Lawyer thread, that this would still be Felony murder!

BBM
I 100% agree with you. Not trying to mitigate - I feel it was not premeditated but murder nonetheless because Caylees death was a foreseeable result of her mothers gross neglegence.

 

[tlcya]

Solace, I think your theory on the timeline of the body in the trunk is correct. As to GA and CA statements on when they last saw little angel, I do not find them credible either, Aedrys.

 

[Solace]

Solace, I think your theory on the timeline of the body in the trunk is correct. As to GA and CA statements on when they last saw little angel, I do not find them credible either, Aedrys.

I find this case so fascinating because we see George and Cindy and Lee out and out lie. Why their lawyer let them do this (or maybe had no control) I don't know. At the civil depositions, it was nonstop lying and Morgan told them it was going to be played at trial and Cindy scoffed. Cindy lies to the prosecutors about the amount of money stolen. She is asked and says at one point (referring to the deposit slip fiasco) that it was about $3,000 - knowing it was $4,400 which George readily offers.

This family is beyond, beyond stupid. Lee actually has the audacity to say to Linda Drane-Burdick "wasn't that a goof, that lawyer was so stupid". This will be played at trial to show how much this family is willing to lie. Lyon will use all of this in her sentencing argument to show how dysfunctional this family really is.

Just the fact that Cindy and George said goodbye to her every morning for two plus years KNOWING full well that she was NOT going to work is bizarre. Just the fact that Casey stayed at Ricardo's some five nights a week WITH CAYLEE and Cindy tells Morgan (lawyers - civil deps) that it was no more than twice a month - yet at around this time seeks help from a counselor. Casey tells one of her cell mates that she would chloroform Caylee and sneak out of the house and when she returned Caylee was still asleep. No one hears the car starting up when Casey leaves - (are they all on tranquilizers so that they are dead to the world night after night). Incredible.

It's incredible that they think this lying is going to help their daughter. In one way it may help Lyon who will use it for her argument when Casey is found guilty and she will be.

I understand your not believing Cindy or George about the 16th. Obviously, someone is lying. Cindy says she did not see Caylee and Casey because they were still asleep and George says he got Caylee breakfast and Cindy said goodbye - or something to that effect - either way he says Cindy was there when Caylee was up. They cannot keep these lies straight.

 

[tlcya]

DITTO to all of the above!

 

[tlcya]

I think this is what so fascinates me about this case. This family is bizzaro. Their behavior, their twisted FUBAR dynamic, its just like a bad train wreck that you should look away from and yet cannot pull your eyes from.

 

[tlcya]

Trying to figure out how these factors all figured into what Casey did and where and why is what keeps this case so alive in all of our minds, trying to make sure Caylee is not forgotten in the salacious details of the cult of Casey.