Where Precisely Do You Think Caylee Died?

[Solace]

Snipped for space. ITA with everything but this part. In his "microscope" letter, George specifically lists June 15th as an important date to him, and not June 16th. This tells me the last time he saw Caylee was June 15th. If he had seen her on June 16th, that date would have been listed instead. Wouldn't the last day he saw Caylee be an important date?

Aedrys,

He could be listing June 15th as an important date as it was Father's Day. Just a thought.

 

[Solace]

I think this is what so fascinates me about this case. This family is bizzaro. Their behavior, their twisted FUBAR dynamic, its just like a bad train wreck that you should look away from and yet cannot pull your eyes from.

Yep, and who would have thought that Casey would write the letters she did and admit to using chloroform. The hits just keep on comin.

 

[Aedrys]

Aedrys,

He could be listing June 15th as an important date as it was Father's Day. Just a thought.

He could, but it was Cindy's father that got a visit that day. There was no mention of taking George out to eat or any celebration of him as a father that day. All that is ever mentioned is the trip to Mount Dora to see Cindy's father, then Cindy and Caylee swam in the pool. I don't think George was highly valued as a father in that family, so I don't see this being an important day but a depressing day for him. Then you throw in a huge fight where Casey is choked by Caylee, and I am not thinking he talked about that day being important just because it was Father's Day.

That day was important because of the fight and because it was the last time he saw Caylee alive. Both he and CA know the real truth and refuse to admit it. Whether Casey was home or left the house the night of the 15th, GA and CA did not see Caylee alive again after that day. Cayle died on the 16th, probably in the evening, most likely in the trunk of Casey's car.

 

[Solace]

He could, but it was Cindy's father that got a visit that day. There was no mention of taking George out to eat or any celebration of him as a father that day. All that is ever mentioned is the trip to Mount Dora to see Cindy's father, then Cindy and Caylee swam in the pool. I don't think George was highly valued as a father in that family, so I don't see this being an important day but a depressing day for him. Then you throw in a huge fight where Casey is choked by Caylee, and I am not thinking he talked about that day being important just because it was Father's Day.

That day was important because of the fight and because it was the last time he saw Caylee alive. Both he and CA know the real truth and refuse to admit it. Whether Casey was home or left the house the night of the 15th, GA and CA did not see Caylee alive again after that day. Cayle died on the 16th, probably in the evening, most likely in the trunk of Casey's car.

I guess we will agree to disagree. I think she was at home late on the 16th. She may have went out for a bit after the fight, but she is phoning people up until 4 in the morning and speaks to Tony, Jesse and Amy at very late hours or early June 16th hours - 2, 3 and 4 and 4:30.

I think there was another fight with Cindy, but I don't think Casey took Caylee out with her. It is not her mo. I think she may have given her chloroform to keep her quiet. If she had gone out, she would have gone to Tony's because she and him are an item at that point and the day after she spends every day there from June 16th on, with a few days at some other friends here and there. But she is mainly with Tony. I think she killed Caylee in the afternoon. I was just about to write it could have been an accident, but no - there was tape around the baby's mouth and nose - so it was intentional. Casey put on her act and said goodbye to her father and her smile as she has been doing for years and then the sociopath went and killed her child.

Jesus.

P.S. Tony also told her that he did not want to have girl children as they would make for an ugly child. I think Casey wanted out of the house big time. She had virtually used up all her stealing - she was on to her grandfather's bank account and caught. She was now stealing from Amy because she was destitute and thought she could move in with Tony, but not with Caylee. I think that also played into the murder. But her hatred for Cindy overroad everything. Cindy was not getting the baby.

She told one of her cellmates that she had a good relationship with Cindy and then Caylee was born and Cindy basically gave all her attention to the baby.

 

[nanny2five]

i dont know how you all keep up researching this and figuring it out while still working and everything. i live alone and only have to go to work and back. no babies to care for or husband who needs my time and i still stay so far behind i think i might be first LOLOL that said, i have by no means read or understand everything concerning this case, but imo, ka and ca probably did have the huge fight the p.m. of 6/15 but it doesnt look to me like kc left that night. i think she expected the whole thing to blow over. but imo ca was fed up with all the lies and when kc tried to call her the afternoon of 6/16 she chose not to answer. she knew kc wasnt working and she wasnt going to babysit so kc could go out and party. imo, ca should have confronted kc about the fact kc didnt have a job and thus eliminating the possibility of kc using her job as a ploy to get ca to babysit. imo, i think when kc couldnt get in touch with ca to babysit, she lost it. she was already angry but she could have gotten over that had ca answered. by that point, ten min kc was only worried about her video date with al. her anger at ca pushed her over the edge. her selfishness was too big. she wanted it her way, all the way and right now. poor beautiful little Caylee! the fear and confusion she must have felt when the one she loved and trusted most used her for a pawn in a sick family drama!

 

[Bobbisangel]

I agree that prior to June 15th, Casey may have been using Chloroform as daycare, but I don't believe this was an accidental overdose!:snooty:
Even if it was an "accidental" overdose of Chloroform or Xanax, AZLawyer has stated on the Lawyer thread, that this would still be Felony murder!

I think that Caylee was crying and upset because her mom and gramma had been into a fight and were screaming at each other. I would guess that Caylee was still crying when Casey yanked her up and stormed out of the house. She probably slammed her into her car seat which would make her cry even harder and the more Caylee cryed the more upset Casey got.

I can't get past that. She had to have had the duct tape with her in the car because I think that is how Caylee died. She couldn't breathe. I think she chloroformed her before she taped her up though. Maybe she carried duct tape in the car for some reason. She would have had to have the chloroform in the car too. I think she went home the next day and into the garage to get the laundry bag and plastic bags and what ever else she used or took. Maybe she just stuck Caylee in the trunk until she could go back home and get the bags, etc. I think she went somewhere and bagged her up and stuck her back in the trunk until she figured out where to dump her little body.

 

[LinasK]

I think that Caylee was crying and upset because her mom and gramma had been into a fight and were screaming at each other. I would guess that Caylee was still crying when Casey yanked her up and stormed out of the house. She probably slammed her into her car seat which would make her cry even harder and the more Caylee cryed the more upset Casey got.

I can't get past that. She had to have had the duct tape with her in the car because I think that is how Caylee died. She couldn't breathe. I think she chloroformed her before she taped her up though. Maybe she carried duct tape in the car for some reason. She would have had to have the chloroform in the car too. I think she went home the next day and into the garage to get the laundry bag and plastic bags and what ever else she used or took. Maybe she just stuck Caylee in the trunk until she could go back home and get the bags, etc. I think she went somewhere and bagged her up and stuck her back in the trunk until she figured out where to dump her little body.

Although I haven't decided if Casey killed her the night of the 15th in bed, or on the afternoon of the 16th, it's clear to me that she Chloroformed her, then duct taped her and drove around with Caylee in her trunk for a couple of days.

 

[Aedrys]

Although I haven't decided if Casey killed her the night of the 15th in bed, or on the afternoon of the 16th, it's clear to me that she Chloroformed her, then duct taped her and drove around with Caylee in her trunk for a couple of days.

I feel exactly the same way! My gut tells me she left the night of the 15th with Caylee, but then I read things here seem to point at the 16th. I keep going back and forth with it. Ugh. But I do totally agree with you that either on the 15th or 16th, that is what most likely happened.

I am thankful for you guys keeping me on toes, though. Keep up the great work, WSers!

 

[jon_burrows]

Although I haven't decided if Casey killed her the night of the 15th in bed, or on the afternoon of the 16th, it's clear to me that she Chloroformed her, then duct taped her and drove around with Caylee in her trunk for a couple of days.

I don't think we'll ever know if the murder happened on night of the 15th or the afternoon of the 16th. Both scenarios are equally plausible. George and Cindy seem to go out of their way to make the public want to believe she was alive on the morning of the 16th. Cindy's bionic hearing and odd checking on Casey/Caylee in the morning paired with George's bionic memory of exactly what they were wearing an entire month after Caylee was reported missing makes me think the opposite of what they are trying to portray. First off, it's silly to think all was well in the A home and Cindy listened through the door for breathing before she went to work. That's just weird considering Caylee was sleeping with the mother of the year. Cindy's bedroom/bathroom and garage are on the opposite side of the house from Casey's room so if she's telling the truth, she made a special trip across the house to listen through the door. Why? As for George, I don't think anyone would be able to remember exactly what someone was wearing on a specific day a month prior especially since he says it was a normal day, just like any other day when Casey left for her invisijob, invisianny, etc.

I think she duct taped her mouth/nose in the home and let nature take its course, put her in the hamper first with the pooh blank on top to disguise the body then placed her in the trunk. She went back later (when the neighbor said he saw her back into the garage) in order to double bag her with trash bags. Then drove around looking for a good place to dump the body but for whatever reason (got scared, was lazy, or in a hurry (who knows)) dumped the body really close to home.

IMO

 

[Jolynna]

Casey's cell phone pings and the activity on the Anthony's desktop computer put Casey in the Anthony house until late afternoon on June 16. Casey was on her cell phone talking to Tony most of the night of June 15 and into the early morning of June 16 (until 3 a.m). Casey was up bright and early on June 16 checking for messages and calling Tony. She was also on the computer instant messaging. Later in the morning Casey uploaded a picture of Fusian to photobucket. To get to the Anthony family's shared desktop computer (onto which the Fusian picture was uploaded) Casey had to leave her bedroom.

In the state depositions the prosecutors were VERY interested in the location of the shared family computer. I think one of the reasons for that interest is because it shows that Casey was in the house that morning and was comfortable enough to be out where George might be.

That doesn't mean there wasn't a fight on June 15. I think Casey was just as likely to storm into her room, especially if Caylee already in the bed, as she was to leave the house. Since Casey used the Anthony shared computer the next morning, Casey was absolutely in the Anthony house then. For 31 days Casey purposefully was NOT where her parents were. For 31 days Casey was purposefully NOT where George or Cindy could get their hands on her. I don't believe Casey would freely be roaming about the day after she'd killed Caylee. If there had been a body in Casey's room, Casey would have stayed in that room with the door locked, imo. I don't think she'd leave a dead body unattended to upload a picture of Fusian.

 

[Jolynna]

Tony didn't have school on June 16. I can't see Casey hanging out in the Anthony house, where George was, with that option available.

 

[Marina2]

One reason I feel that Caylee died prior to the afternoon of the 16th is that KC gave an alibi for Caylee being gone from that house starting at 9 am on the 16th. To me, this is probably the earliest KC felt anyone could say they hadn't seen Caylee. I think the 9 am to 1 pm time frame she gave for dropping her off has everything to do with when and where Caylee died. For an entire month, KC probably played the morning of the 16th over and over again in her head. By the time she gave her statement, that alibi was firmly fixed in KC's mind. She had a head start on GA and CA. As they relived that morning their stories kept changing.

GA may have been sleeping until 9 am. I think KC used the computer before GA woke that morning and after CA left for work. She did lock herself in her room until CA left for work, the one most likely to want to lay eyes on Caylee. In my theory, Caylee was already in the trunk before anyone woke that morning so she wouldn't have been roaming freely about the house with a body in the her bedroom. All she had to do was explain why she wasn't seen that morning which brings us back to the 9am to 1pm. I would never underestimate what KC would boldly do. She was just that kind of person.

I agree that KC headed for Tony's as soon as she was free to. Probably after coming to terms with what she'd done and after GA left for work. This would give her the opportunity to arrange and/or bag Caylee's body before taking off in the car. On a normal day, KC would have left that morning for TL's. This wasn't a normal day though... she had things to do. Things that couldn't be done until GA was gone. Do we know for sure when GA left the house that day? Could it have been around 1pm?

 

[Solace]

Casey's cell phone pings and the activity on the Anthony's desktop computer put Casey in the Anthony house until late afternoon on June 16. Casey was on her cell phone talking to Tony most of the night of June 15 and into the early morning of June 16 (until 3 a.m). Casey was up bright and early on June 16 checking for messages and calling Tony. She was also on the computer instant messaging. Later in the morning Casey uploaded a picture of Fusian to photobucket. To get to the Anthony family's shared desktop computer (onto which the Fusian picture was uploaded) Casey had to leave her bedroom.

In the state depositions the prosecutors were VERY interested in the location of the shared family computer. I think one of the reasons for that interest is because it shows that Casey was in the house that morning and was comfortable enough to be out where George might be.

That doesn't mean there wasn't a fight on June 15. I think Casey was just as likely to storm into her room, especially if Caylee already in the bed, as she was to leave the house. Since Casey used the Anthony shared computer the next morning, Casey was absolutely in the Anthony house then. For 31 days Casey purposefully was NOT where her parents were. For 31 days Casey was purposefully NOT where George or Cindy could get their hands on her. I don't believe Casey would freely be roaming about the day after she'd killed Caylee. If there had been a body in Casey's room, Casey would have stayed in that room with the door locked, imo. I don't think she'd leave a dead body unattended to upload a picture of Fusian.

Great post. Where did you find out that she uploaded the pictures on the family's computer on June 16th? Thanks in advance.

 

[jon_burrows]

One reason I feel that Caylee died prior to the afternoon of the 16th is that KC gave an alibi for Caylee being gone from that house starting at 9 am on the 16th. To me, this is probably the earliest KC felt anyone could say they hadn't seen Caylee. I think the 9 am to 1 pm time frame she gave for dropping her off has everything to do with when and where Caylee died. For an entire month, KC probably played the morning of the 16th over and over again in her head. By the time she gave her statement, that alibi was firmly fixed in KC's mind. She had a head start on GA and CA. As they relived that morning their stories kept changing.

GA may have been sleeping until 9 am. I think KC used the computer before GA woke that morning and after CA left for work. She did lock herself in her room until CA left for work, the one most likely to want to lay eyes on Caylee. In my theory, Caylee was already in the trunk before anyone woke that morning so she wouldn't have been roaming freely about the house with a body in the her bedroom. All she had to do was explain why she wasn't seen that morning which brings us back to the 9am to 1pm. I would never underestimate what KC would boldly do. She was just that kind of person.

I agree that KC headed for Tony's as soon as she was free to. Probably after coming to terms with what she'd done and after GA left for work. This would give her the opportunity to arrange and/or bag Caylee's body before taking off in the car. On a normal day, KC would have left that morning for TL's. This wasn't a normal day though... she had things to do. Things that couldn't be done until GA was gone. Do we know for sure when GA left the house that day? Could it have been around 1pm?

BBM-The bolded part of your post really stood out to me. That's exactly how I would describe Casey but you worded it perfectly. As crazy as it sounds, it wouldn't surprise me if Casey walked right past George with a deceased Caylee crammed in the laundry bag (blanket on top to disguise the body) on her way to her car. If George dared to even ask where Caylee was Casey could have simply cursed him out and said you all are #%*$! crazy so I took her to the nanny's house last night and that's where I'm staying. I think George gave up a long time ago on trying to reel Casey in, particularly when he took the time to go to Sports Authority and talk to the manager in order to verify she wasn't working. Instead of George/Cindy sticking together and holding Casey's feet to the fire, Cindy chastised George for checking up on her. I think the motto in that house was never make Casey mad.

I'm not saying this happened, I'm just using it as an example because as Marina stated, never underestimate would Casey would boldly do. George even stated that Casey pushes everything to the limit then pushes it some more. We've seen her in action (stealing videos, jail videos) and words (talking to detectives, jail letters) and it's truly scary.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

Problem with Caylee being in the trunk from June 16th through June 24th is that it is 8 days. Can you imagine what the car would smell like after a body sitting in the trunk for 8 days and nights in that Florida heat which would probably be around 120 degrees in the trunk during the day. The lab says 2.6 days of decomposition and look at how bad the smell was. Anything in that trunk would be going through the same process as a slow cooker, I would imagine. Plus all the activity at the A's in the afternoon on the 17th and 18th after GA left for work makes it appear KC was trying to figure out how to get rid of the body. jmo

 

[Solace]

Problem with Caylee being in the trunk from June 16th through June 24th is that it is 8 days. Can you imagine what the car would smell like after a body sitting in the trunk for 8 days and nights in that Florida heat which would probably be around 120 degrees in the trunk during the day. The lab says 2.6 days of decomposition and look at how bad the smell was. Anything in that trunk would be going through the same process as a slow cooker, I would imagine. Plus all the activity at the A's in the afternoon on the 17th and 18th after GA left for work makes it appear KC was trying to figure out how to get rid of the body. jmo

Lambchop,

According to the forensic report she was in the trunk for two days, per the type of purging and insects. She was moved at the latest on the 19th.

 

[Solace]

BBM-The bolded part of your post really stood out to me. That's exactly how I would describe Casey but you worded it perfectly. As crazy as it sounds, it wouldn't surprise me if Casey walked right past George with a deceased Caylee crammed in the laundry bag (blanket on top to disguise the body) on her way to her car. If George dared to even ask where Caylee was Casey could have simply cursed him out and said you all are #%*$! crazy so I took her to the nanny's house last night and that's where I'm staying. I think George gave up a long time ago on trying to reel Casey in, particularly when he took the time to go to Sports Authority and talk to the manager in order to verify she wasn't working. Instead of George/Cindy sticking together and holding Casey's feet to the fire, Cindy chastised George for checking up on her. I think the motto in that house was never make Casey mad.

I'm not saying this happened, I'm just using it as an example because as Marina stated, never underestimate would Casey would boldly do. George even stated that Casey pushes everything to the limit then pushes it some more. We've seen her in action (stealing videos, jail videos) and words (talking to detectives, jail letters) and it's truly scary.

IMO

I would not put that past her either. Not that I think it happened but she is capable of it BECAUSE she was able to have her lies accepted and accepted for years. Who makes up a deposit slip and hands it to the mother and themother says thank you. George said he said to Cindy - this doesn't look like a real deposit slip - the two of them are brain damaged. So Casey figures she can do whatever and it will be accepted and guess what the parents are accepting her Zany lie. I wouldn't be surprised if she thought she could just kill her and after about six months of getting away with it, the parents would just accept it without any repercussions to Casey. One of the telltale signs of a sociopath is doing things to their own detriment. A psychopath will plan it so it does not come back to him but a sociopath just says whatever it takes at the moment to free her of the situation.

I was amazed at the things Cindy and George said to the FBI - it was unbelievable. Lee is a real lowlife telling the prosecutors that Amy H is into heroin along with Ricardo with no proof but what Dominic told him. There is no limit to this family. And this is after Amy brings Cindy to Casey and helps her. Cindy wastes no time in implicating Amy because she was able to show her Tony's apartment even though she was there only once. So that must mean she is involved.

It is incredible that they don't like Tony or Amy or Ricardo but have no problem with Casey even after she steals from her grandfather's bank account - the mark of a true sleaze.

 

[21merc7]

BBM-The bolded part of your post really stood out to me. That's exactly how I would describe Casey but you worded it perfectly. As crazy as it sounds, it wouldn't surprise me if Casey walked right past George with a deceased Caylee crammed in the laundry bag (blanket on top to disguise the body) on her way to her car. If George dared to even ask where Caylee was Casey could have simply cursed him out and said you all are #%*$! crazy so I took her to the nanny's house last night and that's where I'm staying. I think George gave up a long time ago on trying to reel Casey in, particularly when he took the time to go to Sports Authority and talk to the manager in order to verify she wasn't working. Instead of George/Cindy sticking together and holding Casey's feet to the fire, Cindy chastised George for checking up on her. I think the motto in that house was never make Casey mad.

I'm not saying this happened, I'm just using it as an example because as Marina stated, never underestimate would Casey would boldly do. George even stated that Casey pushes everything to the limit then pushes it some more. We've seen her in action (stealing videos, jail videos) and words (talking to detectives, jail letters) and it's truly scary.

IMO

I think KC did walk right past George with a deceased Caylee. I have always thought that. Maybe not in the laundry bag yet, that could have happened later, but already deceased, yes.

 

[Solace]

One reason I feel that Caylee died prior to the afternoon of the 16th is that KC gave an alibi for Caylee being gone from that house starting at 9 am on the 16th. To me, this is probably the earliest KC felt anyone could say they hadn't seen Caylee. I think the 9 am to 1 pm time frame she gave for dropping her off has everything to do with when and where Caylee died. For an entire month, KC probably played the morning of the 16th over and over again in her head. By the time she gave her statement, that alibi was firmly fixed in KC's mind. She had a head start on GA and CA. As they relived that morning their stories kept changing.

GA may have been sleeping until 9 am. I think KC used the computer before GA woke that morning and after CA left for work. She did lock herself in her room until CA left for work, the one most likely to want to lay eyes on Caylee. In my theory, Caylee was already in the trunk before anyone woke that morning so she wouldn't have been roaming freely about the house with a body in the her bedroom. All she had to do was explain why she wasn't seen that morning which brings us back to the 9am to 1pm. I would never underestimate what KC would boldly do. She was just that kind of person.

I agree that KC headed for Tony's as soon as she was free to. Probably after coming to terms with what she'd done and after GA left for work. This would give her the opportunity to arrange and/or bag Caylee's body before taking off in the car. On a normal day, KC would have left that morning for TL's. This wasn't a normal day though... she had things to do. Things that couldn't be done until GA was gone. Do we know for sure when GA left the house that day? Could it have been around 1pm?

Marina,

Casey first said June 9th because that is what Cindy said. She doesn't play things over in her mind. She is a sociopath and says the first thing. She does not think 10 minutes ahead. Anyone else would have NEVER ridden around with a body in the car. Casey did and when the body started purging she got rid of her. But she was willing to drive around with her until it was convenient for her to be moved. She did not think of a body purging at all. She really does not think 10 minutes ahead. But you can think 2 minutes ahead and plan a murder, and wrap tape around your child's mouth and nose and that is premeditated. Casey is done and then some.

Remember how she takes the detectives to Universal and then finally says I don't work here. She did it because she said she worked there and did not expect repercussions. Just as Lee said to her what are you going to say when the police come and they say lets hop in the car and go get Caylee and Lee said Casey looked dumbfounded as if "that is what he is going to say?"

She does not think a head. She is a sociopath. She also does not feel. Notice the FBI asks Cindy if Casey has remorse and Cindy says no she didn't do anything wrong so why would she have remorse. Cindy is probably not far from being a sociopath either, but she doesn't hit Casey's level. She just doesn't get that saying no remorse is a RED FLAG (as Cindy likes to say); that anyone losing their child would have nonstop self doubt because their child is gone. Prosecutors asked Lee if Casey cried when she was young and he said not really, she mostly stomped out of the room and he laughed.

This family is beyond dumb. Why do they think they are being asked these questions, becuase the prosecution is going to say she is a sociopath but that is merely a disorder and she knows what she did was wrong and she is a danger to society.

 

[Gma Kat]

Casey's cell phone pings and the activity on the Anthony's desktop computer put Casey in the Anthony house until late afternoon on June 16. Casey was on her cell phone talking to Tony most of the night of June 15 and into the early morning of June 16 (until 3 a.m). Casey was up bright and early on June 16 checking for messages and calling Tony. She was also on the computer instant messaging. Later in the morning Casey uploaded a picture of Fusian to photobucket. To get to the Anthony family's shared desktop computer (onto which the Fusian picture was uploaded) Casey had to leave her bedroom.

In the state depositions the prosecutors were VERY interested in the location of the shared family computer. I think one of the reasons for that interest is because it shows that Casey was in the house that morning and was comfortable enough to be out where George might be.

That doesn't mean there wasn't a fight on June 15. I think Casey was just as likely to storm into her room, especially if Caylee already in the bed, as she was to leave the house. Since Casey used the Anthony shared computer the next morning, Casey was absolutely in the Anthony house then. For 31 days Casey purposefully was NOT where her parents were. For 31 days Casey was purposefully NOT where George or Cindy could get their hands on her. I don't believe Casey would freely be roaming about the day after she'd killed Caylee. If there had been a body in Casey's room, Casey would have stayed in that room with the door locked, imo. I don't think she'd leave a dead body unattended to upload a picture of Fusian.

I really appreciate your post! Your logic is very easy to follow.

I must admit, I want to cling to the theory that KC killed Caylee by accident, in a fit of rage, on the evening of the 15th. I could almost imagine the chain of events that left her so furious and angry that she fled with Caylee in the car and "shut her up" somehow.....

your theory does makes sense that nothing happened until the 16th, and IIRC the wonderful timeline that our esteemed WS members have put together indicates that she had an opportunity to either "drug" Caylee for convenience or actually, intentionally, "murder" Caylee -again, for convenience AND spite....

I'm still not convinced of the premeditation, I simply struggle to go there...but I am pretty convinced that dear Caylee died in the CAR - whether by accident (as a result of KC drugging her, or some other form of neglect) or intentionally - on the 16th.