Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[UKGuy]

So that points to John, Burke, or some other visitor, right?


That makes sense.

That's an audacious plan. You're saying they hid the body in their house, called the police and said an intruder had entered their house, and they imagined the police would not search the house? They imagined the police and everyone would search around town, and leave them alone in the house, so they would be able to remove the body and dispose of it? That's hard to imagine.

In reality the police did not search the house or leave the house. So in your scenario, why would John need to move the body before "finding" it? Why not just go to the initial storage place and "find" her there?

CircuitGuy,

By hiding JonBenet away they anticipated a search, remember JR was overheard phoning for his plane, but was told he was not leaving. So basically the R's fully intended to flee Colorado at the first opportunity, leaving JonBenet behind! That was Plan A: hide JonBenet away, claim she was kidnapped, and leave town ASAP.

In reality the police did not search the house or leave the house. So in your scenario, why would John need to move the body before "finding" it? Why not just go to the initial storage place and "find" her there?

Probably because she was so well hidden, finding her would signal to everyone else that he probably placed her there. So JR needed a more neutral location, of course JR did not know that Fleet White has already looked into the wine-cellar. In these kind of staged homicides its nearly always the person who placed the body who discovers the body. So once JR realizes he is going nowhere, but has not been arrested, he decides to find JonBenet.


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[UKGuy]

Are you saying the whack on the head took her so close to death her parents believed she was dead and started strangling her as a coverup without checking to see if she was live?

When my wife and I were expecting our first child we took a child CPR class. It described how if the child has no breathing and pulse you start CPR and call 911. I asked how long to continue the CPR. The instructor said CPR can only keep the brain alive a limited time, but even if it takes a while for the ambulance to arrive you do the CPR indefinitely until the ambulance arrives because you want to give the child every chance.

In your scenario, the child was actually alive and had a pulse. You're saying they started the coverup without realizing she was still alive, albeit barely alive, and killed her by accident by strangulation?

I'm not sure how the law sees that, but I see it as full-on murder.

I don't rule out your scenario because someone did a horrible crime.

CircuitGuy,

Are you saying the whack on the head took her so close to death her parents believed she was dead and started strangling her as a cover up without checking to see if she was live?

No because I do not know, but it looks like after being whacked on the head her assailant thought JonBenet was dead, this might have prompted some kind of postmortem behavior?

James Kolar thinks JonBenet's killer did it all, including the paintbrush ligature asphyxiation.

I think the ligature and paintbrush device is there to mask a prior manual strangulation.

So was JonBenet physically restrained, possibly whacked on the head then sexually assaulted, if the paintbrush plus ligature was attached by the same person who sexually assaulted her, does this mean it was premeditated, i.e. the enactment of some perverted fantasy?

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[BBB167893]

How strong do you think the fiber evidence is? A lot of people seem skeptical about BPD's claims since they never had to present the evidence. There's also that bat found outside the Ramsey house that apparently contained fibers consistent with the basement carpet, for whatever that's worth. I've always operated under the assumption that the fiber evidence was legitimate since Kolar (and I believe Thomas) both mention it in their books. Near as I can tell their specific claims about the fiber evidence have not resulted in any legal challenges from Ramsey lawyer Lin Wood. Anyway, thoughts?

I think you have it right: I think it's quite strong. Strong enough that Patsy nearly threw up when they laid it on her.

 

[BBB167893]

What does staging mean in this case? I've been reading about the case for years, but I still don't know exactly what it means. What prior crime scene do you think was there? Do you think one of the family members murdered her or killed her with reckless behavior of some sort and then they moved her. I guess we know that much is true. So which part of that is "staging"?

The duct tape was already mentioned, but I'll add in a few things. There was also the cord around JB's wrists. Her hands were in front of her, not behind her, and there was 1-1/2 feet of slack between her hands. It would not have restrained her.

Then there's the garrote itself. If it was added after the blow to he head, and I believe it was, it was to provide an obvious means of death. Same with the paintbrush handle "assault:" to provide a motive (and hopefully mask or at least explain her vaginal condition). And the note itself.

 

[Foreign Faction]

Are you saying the whack on the head took her so close to death her parents believed she was dead and started strangling her as a coverup without checking to see if she was live?

When my wife and I were expecting our first child we took a child CPR class. It described how if the child has no breathing and pulse you start CPR and call 911. I asked how long to continue the CPR. The instructor said CPR can only keep the brain alive a limited time, but even if it takes a while for the ambulance to arrive you do the CPR indefinitely until the ambulance arrives because you want to give the child every chance.

In your scenario, the child was actually alive and had a pulse. You're saying they started the coverup without realizing she was still alive, albeit barely alive, and killed her by accident by strangulation?

I'm not sure how the law sees that, but I see it as full-on murder.

I don't rule out your scenario because someone did a horrible crime.

Hi, yes, that's pretty much what I believe; namely, that she was so seemingly dead that the strangulation, while viewed as part of the staging/coverup, as actually the thing which ultimately killed her. I do have a little problem believing that JR wouldn't have carefully checked for signs of life, but it is possible, that PR, in her haste and terrible confusion, might have assumed she was already dead.

 

[Tadpole12]

Patsy stated the long johns originated upstairs, so why bother fetching a gap top and long johns but leaving out a clean pair of size-6 underwear? Its unlikely Patsy dressed JonBenet in the size-12's.

UKGuy,

If JR's portion of the staging is post discovery of the rn, and is accomplished during the period of time that he was unobserved, then the majority of the items found with the body were accessible to him in the basement level of the home. If the wrist binding was not contemporaneous with the construction of the ligature, then JR either uses a length cut from the ligature rope to construct it or he finds the remainder of the rope in the initial dumping ground?

Your premise is that JR was part of a pre-rn staging?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

If JR's portion of the staging is post discovery of the rn, and is accomplished during the period of time that he was unobserved, then the majority of the items found with the body were accessible to him in the basement level of the home. If the wrist binding was not contemporaneous with the construction of the ligature, then JR either uses a length cut from the ligature rope to construct it or he finds the remainder of the rope in the initial dumping ground?

Your premise is that JR was part of a pre-rn staging?

Tadpole12,
No, similarly with PR. As Kolar suggests one person might have done it all, before the parents arrive on the scene?

I think JR and PR intervene towards the end of the process, also they were not aware of everything that took place, e.g. size-12's and pineapple snack. If they had been they would have amended their version of events to suit.

It appears one person killed JonBenet and probably attempted a cleanup and some staging i.e. size-12's.

So one scenario is that the person who killed JonBenet did so in a rage with the parents fabricating JonBenet as a victim of an intruder homicide?

Patsy's fibers are all over the ligature, suggesting she applied it? JR's fibers are allegedly on the size-12's, so he might have wiped JonBenet down, courtesy of Coroner Meyer.

I'm fairly confident both JR and PR assisted each other in constructing JonBenet as the victim of an intruder homicide, to achieve this they removed forensic evidence, e.g. bloodstains, size-6 underwear, possibly the pink pajama bottoms, never found, and they added some, e.g. white blanket, long johns, gap top, cord restraints and duct tape, and as an afterthought the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown.

So basically the R's were attempting to mask whatever had taken place during JonBenet's assault.

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[Foreign Faction]

Tadpole12,
No, similarly with PR. As Kolar suggests one person might have done it all, before the parents arrive on the scene?

I think JR and PR intervene towards the end of the process, also they were not aware of everything that took place, e.g. size-12's and pineapple snack. If they had been they would have amended their version of events to suit.

It appears one person killed JonBenet and probably attempted a cleanup and some staging i.e. size-12's.

So one scenario is that the person who killed JonBenet did so in a rage with the parents fabricating JonBenet as a victim of an intruder homicide?

Patsy's fibers are all over the ligature, suggesting she applied it? JR's fibers are allegedly on the size-12's, so he might have wiped JonBenet down, courtesy of Coroner Meyer.

I'm fairly confident both JR and PR assisted each other in constructing JonBenet as the victim of an intruder homicide, to achieve this they removed forensic evidence, e.g. bloodstains, size-6 underwear, possibly the pink pajama bottoms, never found, and they added some, e.g. white blanket, long johns, gap top, cord restraints and duct tape, and as an afterthought the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown.

So basically the R's were attempting to mask whatever had taken place during JonBenet's assault.

.

Interesting theory, but you decline to name BR as "the person who killed JonBenet." Do you really think it could have been someone other than him, or are you just being politic about it, Kolaresque-style?

 

[CircuitGuy]

You're saying they hid the body in their house, called the police and said an intruder had entered their house, and they imagined the police would not search the house? They imagined the police and everyone would search around town, and leave them alone in the house, so they would be able to remove the body and dispose of it?

By hiding JonBenet away they anticipated a search, remember JR was overheard phoning for his plane, but was told he was not leaving. So basically the R's fully intended to flee Colorado at the first opportunity, leaving JonBenet behind! That was Plan A: hide JonBenet away, claim she was kidnapped, and leave town ASAP.

why would John need to move the body before "finding" it? Why not just go to the initial storage place and "find" her there?

Probably because she was so well hidden, finding her would signal to everyone else that he probably placed her there. So JR needed a more neutral location, of course JR did not know that Fleet White has already looked into the wine-cellar. In these kind of staged homicides its nearly always the person who placed the body who discovers the body. So once JR realizes he is going nowhere, but has not been arrested, he decides to find JonBenet..

In this scenario, they hid the body well so it would not be found immediately, but they knew it would be found eventually. Maybe it was in the crawl space or behind a bunch of equipment in the basement. Their plan was to be in Atlanta before someone found the body.

Why would being in Atlanta vs. Boulder matter? If they thought the body being well-hidden in the house was suspicious, Boulder police would work with Atlanta authorities to bring them into the same criminal justice process as if they were in Boulder. Their being in another state maybe delays the process by a day while Boulder police forward the information to the Atlanta police and the police locate the suspects. Do you think maybe they had a notion of going into hiding?

If leaving Boulder was their goal, I can see why John would move the body to a less-well-hidden place and "find" it. I don't see why leaving Boulder, unless they're going into hiding, helps them.

If they went into hiding, it would have to be for good because they'd look guilty. I imagine them using the plane owned by his company to fly Central or South America, hiding cash, gold, and maybe some cash instruments they can exchange for more cash or gold somewhere else. Maybe they wire some money to a Central American bank too. At least some of that money gets through customs, they turn it into cash and gold, and then they drive a non-descript junky car across the boarder, some place where they usually don't have passport control set up. It's dangerous the travel those rural roads with money, but they take the risk. They end up in a country where their passport was never stamped. They retire in some rural village in the Andes, and no one knows where they are. If they buy/rent property or need ID for a traffic stop, they show that passport, whoever is looking at it probably won't have heard of them and won't enter it into a database of fugitives. I could see that working, but it would be hard to pull off.

The hiding part is interesting to contemplate but probably not what you were imagining. Are you thinking that just delaying the arrest by going to another city delays things and makes it a little harder to prosecute the case?

 

[UKGuy]

Interesting theory, but you decline to name BR as "the person who killed JonBenet." Do you really think it could have been someone other than him, or are you just being politic about it, Kolaresque-style?

Foreign Faction,
Kind of, its more that JR or PR might have actually killed JonBenet, so naming someone else muddies the water.

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[UKGuy]

In this scenario, they hid the body well so it would not be found immediately, but they knew it would be found eventually. Maybe it was in the crawl space or behind a bunch of equipment in the basement. Their plan was to be in Atlanta before someone found the body.

Why would being in Atlanta vs. Boulder matter? If they thought the body being well-hidden in the house was suspicious, Boulder police would work with Atlanta authorities to bring them into the same criminal justice process as if they were in Boulder. Their being in another state maybe delays the process by a day while Boulder police forward the information to the Atlanta police and the police locate the suspects. Do you think maybe they had a notion of going into hiding?

If leaving Boulder was their goal, I can see why John would move the body to a less-well-hidden place and "find" it. I don't see why leaving Boulder, unless they're going into hiding, helps them.

If they went into hiding, it would have to be for good because they'd look guilty. I imagine them using the plane owned by his company to fly Central or South America, hiding cash, gold, and maybe some cash instruments they can exchange for more cash or gold somewhere else. Maybe they wire some money to a Central American bank too. At least some of that money gets through customs, they turn it into cash and gold, and then they drive a non-descript junky car across the boarder, some place where they usually don't have passport control set up. It's dangerous the travel those rural roads with money, but they take the risk. They end up in a country where their passport was never stamped. They retire in some rural village in the Andes, and no one knows where they are. If they buy/rent property or need ID for a traffic stop, they show that passport, whoever is looking at it probably won't have heard of them and won't enter it into a database of fugitives. I could see that working, but it would be hard to pull off.

The hiding part is interesting to contemplate but probably not what you were imagining. Are you thinking that just delaying the arrest by going to another city delays things and makes it a little harder to prosecute the case?

CircuitGuy,
The R's patently assumed they would be arrested once JonBenet was discovered hence they did not want to hang about, who knows where they would have traveled to, South America, Europe?

JR moving JonBenet does not change what transpired before, its added as a potential explanation for Fleet White not observing JonBenet?


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[CircuitGuy]

CircuitGuy,
The R's patently assumed they would be arrested once JonBenet was discovered hence they did not want to hang about, who knows where they would have traveled to, South America, Europe?

So you think they were planning to become fugitives, the RN was only intended to buy them time to get away, but by some good fortune for them they didn't get to flee and their cover story was enough to prevent them from being prosecuted?

 

[singularity]

CircuitGuy,
The R's patently assumed they would be arrested once JonBenet was discovered hence they did not want to hang about, who knows where they would have traveled to, South America, Europe?

I highly doubt they ever had plans on going overseas. They knew the case had been bungled from the start and a resolution to the case unlikely.

They clearly wanted out of that house the moment her body was found but they weren't leaving the country....they were leaving her behind and moving on with their lives.

JR moving JonBenet does not change what transpired before, its added as a potential explanation for Fleet White not observing JonBenet?

So many unanswered questions about the basement sequence. I'd like to know what really transpired in the basement that day just as much as I would what happened the night before.

 

[apabld]

I always believed it was an intruder, but reading some of your posts over the past few days has pushed me further and further into RDI territory.

 

[UKGuy]

So you think they were planning to become fugitives, the RN was only intended to buy them time to get away, but by some good fortune for them they didn't get to flee and their cover story was enough to prevent them from being prosecuted?

CircuitGuy,
Well I reckon JR was not phoning his pilot that morning so he could attend an important business event? I think the RN and JonBenet in the wine-cellar is staging intended to minimize any links to the R's.

It all worked, except JR was not allowed to fly out of Colorado. If JR had any intention to wait until evening and relocate JonBenet's body out of the house, his decision to find her seems to contradict it?

JR felt confident enough in the staging of JonBenet that enough had been done to allow for plausible deniability?

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[UKGuy]

I always believed it was an intruder, but reading some of your posts over the past few days has pushed me further and further into RDI territory.

apabld,
You should borrow or buy James Kolar's book on the subject, and he will explain why there was no intruder(s), AKA as a Foreign Faction.

The dna found on JonBenet is patently touch-dna and does not occur anywhere else in the house, how strange is that?

The case is 100% RDI, since there is no Intruder forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey house, its just a case of which R: PDI, JDI, BDI or some combination thereof?

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[UKGuy]

I highly doubt they ever had plans on going overseas. They knew the case had been bungled from the start and a resolution to the case unlikely.

They clearly wanted out of that house the moment her body was found but they weren't leaving the country....they were leaving her behind and moving on with their lives.


So many unanswered questions about the basement sequence. I'd like to know what really transpired in the basement that day just as much as I would what happened the night before.

singularity,
For some unknown reason I think JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, this might be why she was wrapped in a white blanket, courtesy of JR, and why he lifted her upstairs, since he knew his forensics might be on that blanket. He also tweaked the forensic evidence with restraints and duct tape, and quite likely dumped the bloodstained pink barbie gown into the wine-cellar, thereby breaking a link to a prior staging?

I think Fleet White's account is accurate, without the bloodstained nightgown maybe he did miss her, but you do not stage a crime-scene then add unrelated forensic evidence?

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[BBB167893]

I highly doubt they ever had plans on going overseas. They knew the case had been bungled from the start and a resolution to the case unlikely.

They clearly wanted out of that house the moment her body was found but they weren't leaving the country....they were leaving her behind and moving on with their lives.


So many unanswered questions about the basement sequence. I'd like to know what really transpired in the basement that day just as much as I would what happened the night before.

I myself have often thought that the Ramsey would "pull a Polanski" and flee the country upon posting bail if they were arrested.

 

[Foreign Faction]

apabld,
You should borrow or buy James Kolar's book on the subject, and he will explain why there was no intruder(s), AKA as a Foreign Faction.

The dna found on JonBenet is patently touch-dna and does not occur anywhere else in the house, how strange is that?

The case is 100% RDI, since there is no Intruder forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey house, its just a case of which R: PDI, JDI, BDI or some combination thereof?

.

In this day and age, are there even reputable, intelligent people, perhaps even forum members that still actually believe in the IDI theory?

 

[questfortrue]

I myself have often thought that the Ramsey would "pull a Polanski" and flee the country upon posting bail if they were arrested.

SuperDave, I believe you’re right. Sister PP was asked to retrieve their passports.

I think the conversation could have gone like this:

SPOOF ALERT

JR: Patster, we need to plan for the possibility they arrest us for child abuse or some such nonsense; we post bail, go to Spain, where there’s very difficult extradition. You know I never touched JB, but the prisoners might not believe that, and they don’t treat adults who harm children very nicely.

PR: How will we live? What about BR?

JR: Well, word from my LM manager is that I’ll receive a buyout to go away so they can sell to GE. They don’t want me as part of the sale. Oh yeah, BR, we’ll take him too. Anyway, about BR, he’ll land on his feet. Maybe he’ll be building action games/videos himself one day. Fact is, I’ve got an idea for one I think he should work on. It’s called Home Invasion 2.0. Can be sold in Europe and we can send ‘em out as Christmas presents to AH and ML.