Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[UKGuy]

Ya thanks for the info UKGuy,

https://books.google.ca/books?id=BD...HXf2Dn4Q6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=piquerism&f=true

"Oftentimes, the medical examiner will refer to these types of injuries as "punctuate abrasions,"
which is the correct forensic description of this pathology."
......"although sexually motivated, the offender targeted portions of the body, which could be considered sexual regions in male homosexual events, such as back and neck of victim."

FFJ's thread, The two knives:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?5986-The-two-knives

"There are two knives relevant to this case- Burke's Swiss Army knife found in the basement on a counter and the paring knife found on the counter of the 2nd floor laundry area just outside of JonBenet's room."

Tadpole12,
You left out the train tracks, which just might have some particular significance to BR: were there train tracks left in the train-room, were there train tracks left elsewhere in the house, e.g. JonBenet's bedroom, what gauge were they, what kind of puncture would would they elicit, does any of this info match injuries found on JonBenet, similarly with the Paintbrush which looks like the perimortem assault device?

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[Foreign Faction]

Tadpole12,
You left out the train tracks, which just might have some particular significance to BR: were there train tracks left in the train-room, were there train tracks left elsewhere in the house, e.g. JonBenet's bedroom, what gauge were they, what kind of puncture would would they elicit, does any of this info match injuries found on JonBenet, similarly with the Paintbrush which looks like the perimortem assault device?

.

I wonder, just wonder, if those train tracks were the type that can be electrified in some way, that a child (viz., BR) might think that you could poke JBR with it in an attempt to "shock" her back to consciousness after he knocked her unconscious? :thinking:

 

[Tadpole12]

Tadpole12,
You left out the train tracks, which just might have some particular significance to BR: were there train tracks left in the train-room, were there train tracks left elsewhere in the house, e.g. JonBenet's bedroom, what gauge were they, what kind of puncture would would they elicit, does any of this info match injuries found on JonBenet, similarly with the Paintbrush which looks like the perimortem assault device?

Heyya UKGuy,

No, not to forget the train tracks, for iirc as JK describes, in the experiment he performed on his assistant?, it took time and pressure to make 'similar' circular marks, time enough for it to be a 'visually stimulating' experience. (like hyper-visual?)

 

[Tadpole12]

SHOUTOUT TO THE SITH
MAY THE FOURTH BE WITH YOU!

Heyya redpill
Ya it looks like 'crimeshots' is out of service and available for purchase.

also, digg Spectreman.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Some JonBenet in the media updates:

-JonBenet is on the cover of The National Enquirer.
-The Today Show is going to talk about JonBenet tomorrow, according to a poster on the Caylee forum
-Peter Boyles show talked about the case yesterday and Peter mentioned something about Dateline doing an episode on the case. Dateline and Today are both on NBC...Could that be what the segment tomorrow is about?

 

[UKGuy]

Heyya UKGuy,

No, not to forget the train tracks, for iirc as JK describes, in the experiment he performed on his assistant?, it took time and pressure to make 'similar' circular marks, time enough for it to be a 'visually stimulating' experience. (like hyper-visual?)

Tadpole12,
Sure, well puncture behavior might explain some of the marks on JonBenet's body, definitely looks like there was some curious behavior going on while JonBenet was near dead?


.

 

[Tadpole12]

Some JonBenet in the media updates:

-JonBenet is on the cover of The National Enquirer.
-The Today Show is going to talk about JonBenet tomorrow, according to a poster on the Caylee forum
-Peter Boyles show talked about the case yesterday and Peter mentioned something about Dateline doing an episode on the case. Dateline and Today are both on NBC...Could that be what the segment tomorrow is about?

Ty eileenhawkeye,

I'm just listening to the PB show now.

PB Show may 4 2016 Hr 3
Michael Roberts from Westword on the Jon Benet Ramsey series coming out
http://peterboyles.podbean.com/e/peter-boyles-show-may-4-2016-hr-3/

 

[AndHence]

How strong do you think the fiber evidence is? A lot of people seem skeptical about BPD's claims since they never had to present the evidence. There's also that bat found outside the Ramsey house that apparently contained fibers consistent with the basement carpet, for whatever that's worth. I've always operated under the assumption that the fiber evidence was legitimate since Kolar (and I believe Thomas) both mention it in their books. Near as I can tell their specific claims about the fiber evidence have not resulted in any legal challenges from Ramsey lawyer Lin Wood. Anyway, thoughts?

 

[CircuitGuy]

Or as other have speculated, he hit her hard enough to knock her out and his parents killed her and covered for their son.

That is messed up, if they did that. Think about that outside this case. The parents are home and one kids hurts another severely by accident, and the parents' reaction is to murder the severely injured kid. That is just so messed up.

Kids playing rough and dangerous and someone getting seriously hurt is a real fear I have with my kids. It's part of being a parent, I think. A kid getting hurt is not something so bizarre that would require a coverup.

My comment doesn't mean anything to the case because someone was messed up enough to murder, so anything is possible.

 

[Foreign Faction]

That is messed up, if they did that. Think about that outside this case. The parents are home and one kids hurts another severely by accident, and the parents' reaction is to murder the severely injured kid. That is just so messed up.

Kids playing rough and dangerous and someone getting seriously hurt is a real fear I have with my kids. It's part of being a parent, I think. A kid getting hurt is not something so bizarre that would require a coverup.

My comment doesn't mean anything to the case because someone was messed up enough to murder, so anything is possible.

Keep in mind, while I believe fully in the above BDI with parental coverup theory, I DO NOT believe JBR was "murdered," per se. She was killed, accidentally, I might add, probably by JR by strangulation while he and PR fully believed she was already dead from the BR whack on the head. That really isn't murder, and certainly not calculated. JBR died as an immediate cause of strangulation, BUT BR's hit on the head would have killed her eventually (or so said the coroner).

 

[UKGuy]

James Kolar thinks that the same person who sexually assaulted JonBenet also asphyxiated her, i.e. it was no accident!

Consider JonBenet apart or distinct from the wine-celler she was staged the wine-cellar was not, but other areas of the basement were, courtesy of JR's explanations.

JonBenet was staged in accordance with the R's version of events, dressed in apparent bed clothes.

So the big question for all you high IQ people is: why did the R's not leave JonBenet in some basement room in full view, why was she hidden away in the wine-cellar?

The sexual assault was hidden beneath layers of clothing, including her partially healed chronic assaults, she had been wiped down to remove bloodstains, she had clean size-12's placed on her, so if thats JR's fibers to be found on clean, brand new underwear, well you do the maths.

The best minimal explanation for the evidence is that the parents staged a crime-scene so to remove a prior crime-scene, in this they were successful,

The only question remaining is which R sexually assaulted JonBenet?

.

 

[singularity]

The only question remaining is which R sexually assaulted JonBenet?

.

I am in the group who believe she had multiple abusers consisting of family and several others, from family friends, possibly photographers, and maybe even other kids in her life.

If LE or by some miracle the FBI were to take a fresh look at this case and make a serious attempt at solving it, I want them to dig very deep into the abuse angle. While it may not be the actual motive for her murder that night, I do believe it played a role leading up to her murder.

I think the last few weeks of her life need to be placed under a microscope, maybe even going back to her last summer. While JAR likely didn't kill her, he needs to be near the top of their list of people to interview. Add his friends and anyone who knew him in college. There is something there. I remember many years ago there were some comments(anyone still have this info?) from people who knew him in college who said he talked about JOnbenet a LOT. Its highly unusual for frat boys to have their six year old sister be a main topic of conversation. If there is even only a sliver of truth to those stories, he needs to be asked about it. Even if he didn't abuse her, he is showing interest for some reason. Find out why. How many of his friends went to the Ramsey home? Jonbenet was not shy. She liked giving "tours" of the house and did any of JAR's friends get this little tour? She also allowed anyone to wipe her after using the bathroom. Jonbenet was too young to realize this but she is placing herself in very high risk situations by doing that. How many guys actually wiped her?

John had the colossal gall to say Jonbenet would possibly "prearrange" secret meetings with guys and be willing to leave with them in the middle of the night. Put this statement to the test. Start grilling any guys who ever had even minimal contact with Jonbenet. It's possibly the most disturbing thing JR ever said about her and should've been looked into 20 years ago.

JAR could be entirely innocent yet brought someone into the house who may have done something. He might think he knows little yet could know information that could add a few missing pieces to the puzzle.

JAR's area of the house was a hotbed of activity that night. Why? What was in there?

There was also the bizarre accusation from that informant in Michigan who claimed JAR(or someone claiming to be him) offered him 10k to murder Jonbenet in a boating accident. BPD blew this off too quickly. Maybe the informant was unreliable but if he's so unreliable, why is he an informant in the first place?

It definitely sounds outlandish but if silencing an abuse victim was the motive for her murder, the story doesn't sound as outlandish.

To any new members here who don't know about this...

PMPT Page 152

"When the Star received a tip on February 5 that John Andrew Ramsey had tried to arrange the death of his half-sister, JonBenet, they passed the information to the Boulder police.

"A sometime police informant had told the tabloid that on the weekend of either Memorial Day or July Fourth, 1996, while the Ramsey family was vacationing in Michigan, John Andrew had offered him $10,000 to ram a power boat into a smaller boat that would be carrying him and JonBenet. Supposedly, John Andrew would jump overboard to safety just before impact and JonBenet, he hoped, would be killed. The informant told the Star that he had rejected the offer.

PMPT Page 153

"Detective Jane Harmer was assigned to follow up on the tip. The informant was interviewed by police in Waterford, Michigan, where he repeated the story he'd told the tabloid. Two weeks later the Boulder police discovered that the informant had a dubious history. A check of Michigan police agencies revealed that he had come under suspicion -- first for possibly planting drugs in an alleged dope house and second for refusing to take a polygraph test to confirm information he had provided in a cocaine investigation. By the end of February, Boulder police had decided that the informant's accusations were unfounded, and yet another lead in the Ramsey case would go nowhere."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-boatman-mi.htm

Other than JAR, Grandpa Paugh deserved a very close look. He was at the 23rd party where something happened and of course the 911 call. He flies back home almost immediately on a standby flight. Why's he in such a rush?

Many always assumed John was the abuser. It's possible of course but I lean towards others but at the same time I think he at least knew there was abuse going on. Its why I don't think she ever had a chance of going to the hospital even if that head wound is a bit less severe. IMO they both knew she was being molested and if anyone on the outside found out, the whole dysfunctional house of cards comes crashing down and they weren't going to let that happen. Too many lives, career, and money at stake to let an innocent six year old girl get in the way of that.

The moment she is bludgeoned, regardless of who did it or why, she wasn't leaving the house alive.

: why did the R's not leave JonBenet in some basement room in full view, why was she hidden away in the wine-cellar?

Other than the pageantry and having their perfect daughter on display, everything about her was a secret. Once she is dead, she was hidden in that cellar like the secret she was.

Placing her in that room was very revealing IMO.

 

[Quiet Time]

Really enjoyed your post. ^^^^^^^
You write of things I had never heard before.

T.Y.

 

[CircuitGuy]

The best minimal explanation for the evidence is that the parents staged a crime-scene so to remove a prior crime-scene, in this they were successful.

What does staging mean in this case? I've been reading about the case for years, but I still don't know exactly what it means. What prior crime scene do you think was there? Do you think one of the family members murdered her or killed her with reckless behavior of some sort and then they moved her. I guess we know that much is true. So which part of that is "staging"?

 

[AndHence]

At a minimum, we know that the placement of duct tape over JonBenet's mouth is evidence of staging. JonBenet was unconscious when the tape was placed on there in an attempt to make this look like a kidnapping. JonBenet's lips left perfect imprints on the tape, suggesting she was not awake when this was applied and did not struggle. For sake of argument, if an intruder wanted to conk her over the head and place tape over her mouth in case she woke up in transit, he could have then easily exited the house without having to go through the basement. At the top of the stairs there was an egress point leading out towards the garden/patio area; it is preposterous to think that the intruder would go out through a narrow window carrying a child.

 

[Tadpole12]

The Today Show
Unsolved case of JonBenet Ramsey continues to raise suspicions 20 years later
May. 6, 2016

http://www.today.com/news/unsolved-...tinues-raise-suspicions-20-years-later-t91096

Ollie Gray suspect MH:

@2:19
"The private investigator says he has reason to believe there is a tape recorded confession of H in the care of his close friends and family."
OG: I don't think M did it, all this by himself.

CB: "Ollie Gray's theory is very controversial, When the indictments of John and Patsy Ramsey were revealed, it was shown that they had both been indicted as accessory to first degree murder. However, neither of them had been indicted, so the question becomes who and the only other person in the house that night, that we know of was ....."

......"The Boulder police department declined to be interview but issued a statement to NBC News saying : 'Two detective are assigned to the case' and that 'they receive information on a regular basis that is evaluated'. The city's District Attorney also declined to be interviewed."

 

[UKGuy]

What does staging mean in this case? I've been reading about the case for years, but I still don't know exactly what it means. What prior crime scene do you think was there? Do you think one of the family members murdered her or killed her with reckless behavior of some sort and then they moved her. I guess we know that much is true. So which part of that is "staging"?

CircuitGuy,

The staging is JonBenet in the wine-cellar, except we all know nothing happened in the wine-cellar, so why place her there?

Normally a staged crime-scene has items both removed and added, consider the wine-cellar whats been added or removed and why?

So the primary crime-scene was elsewhere in the house, and that was more than likely subject to some cleanup procedures and possibly some prior staging?

I think one of the R's sexually assaulted and manually strangled JonBenet, possibly in her bedroom or the killers?

Another aspect of the wine-cellar staging is the redressing of JonBenet, e.g. long johns and the gap top, were likely done to match the R's version of events, but the size-12's were a replacement for her bloodstained size-6 underwear. Patsy stated the long johns originated upstairs, so why bother fetching a gap top and long johns but leaving out a clean pair of size-6 underwear? Its unlikely Patsy dressed JonBenet in the size-12's.

With the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown being dumped into the wine-cellar, this suggests an afterthought and not a predetermined staged crime-scene, so it appears JonBenet was simply hidden away to satisfy the outline of a kidnapping, later moved into the wine-cellar along with the pink nightgown. Initially the R's hoped everyone would be out looking for JonBenet and they would flee interstate by plane, when this did not happen I reckon JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, not for staging but so he could find her later.


.

 

[UKGuy]

At a minimum, we know that the placement of duct tape over JonBenet's mouth is evidence of staging. JonBenet was unconscious when the tape was placed on there in an attempt to make this look like a kidnapping. JonBenet's lips left perfect imprints on the tape, suggesting she was not awake when this was applied and did not struggle. For sake of argument, if an intruder wanted to conk her over the head and place tape over her mouth in case she woke up in transit, he could have then easily exited the house without having to go through the basement. At the top of the stairs there was an egress point leading out towards the garden/patio area; it is preposterous to think that the intruder would go out through a narrow window carrying a child.

AndHence,
Would the tape have fallen off JonBenet's lips if she had been moved, and why did Fleet White return to an empty wine-cellar?

.

 

[CircuitGuy]

Kids playing rough and dangerous and someone getting seriously hurt is a real fear I have with my kids. It's part of being a parent, I think. A kid getting hurt is not something so bizarre that would require a coverup.

Keep in mind, while I believe fully in the above BDI with parental coverup theory, I DO NOT believe JBR was "murdered," per se. She was killed, accidentally, I might add, probably by JR by strangulation while he and PR fully believed she was already dead from the BR whack on the head. That really isn't murder, and certainly not calculated. JBR died as an immediate cause of strangulation, BUT BR's hit on the head would have killed her eventually (or so said the coroner).

Are you saying the whack on the head took her so close to death her parents believed she was dead and started strangling her as a coverup without checking to see if she was live?

When my wife and I were expecting our first child we took a child CPR class. It described how if the child has no breathing and pulse you start CPR and call 911. I asked how long to continue the CPR. The instructor said CPR can only keep the brain alive a limited time, but even if it takes a while for the ambulance to arrive you do the CPR indefinitely until the ambulance arrives because you want to give the child every chance.

In your scenario, the child was actually alive and had a pulse. You're saying they started the coverup without realizing she was still alive, albeit barely alive, and killed her by accident by strangulation?

I'm not sure how the law sees that, but I see it as full-on murder.

I don't rule out your scenario because someone did a horrible crime.

 

[CircuitGuy]

Another aspect of the wine-cellar staging is the redressing of JonBenet, e.g. long johns and the gap top, were likely done to match the R's version of events, but the size-12's were a replacement for her bloodstained size-6 underwear. Patsy stated the long johns originated upstairs, so why bother fetching a gap top and long johns but leaving out a clean pair of size-6 underwear? Its unlikely Patsy dressed JonBenet in the size-12's.

So that points to John, Burke, or some other visitor, right?

With the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown being dumped into the wine-cellar, this suggests an afterthought and not a predetermined staged crime-scene,

That makes sense.

so it appears JonBenet was simply hidden away to satisfy the outline of a kidnapping, later moved into the wine-cellar along with the pink nightgown. Initially the R's hoped everyone would be out looking for JonBenet and they would flee interstate by plane, when this did not happen I reckon JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, not for staging but so he could find her later.

That's an audacious plan. You're saying they hid the body in their house, called the police and said an intruder had entered their house, and they imagined the police would not search the house? They imagined the police and everyone would search around town, and leave them alone in the house, so they would be able to remove the body and dispose of it? That's hard to imagine.

In reality the police did not search the house or leave the house. So in your scenario, why would John need to move the body before "finding" it? Why not just go to the initial storage place and "find" her there?