Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Tadpole12]

FMI

JonBenet Ramsey boa

WS 09-09-2008

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?70120-John-Ramsey-on-Oprah&p=2651335#post2651335

"River, I spoke with Mame via e-mail, she is the one that put me in touch with Lou Smit. I spoke with him via phone 3 times, his number has now been disconnected and I am not sure if he is still in the Springs. Having moved back to Colorado 4 years ago, I met someone who was at a Christmas party with the maid Linda Hoffman Pugh (she just happened to be there) and my friend was not at all interested in this case. His wife and him overheard Linda tell guests that the Ramsey's had a nude photo of JB in their bedroom that they removed before police arrived. I have never been able to confirm this story and don't like posting things without confirmation, but I know this friend would not lie, I just wonder if it was Linda spinning her own story or if in fact it was true. I think all parents have nude photos of their kids when they are babies, but this reportedly was a nude photo of JB much older, which would constitute child *advertiser censored*. I haven't had a change to review the master bedroom photos of the Ramsey's. I would like to see if there are any holes or nails in the wall."

FFJ July 29 2003

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?3459-JonBenet-s-summer-home&p=41107#post41107

"Remember the glamour photo, with a feather boa (and nothing else), when she was...what...3 years old?"

 

[Tadpole12]

so the original 'boa' photo is a screen capture from a BW 20 20 interview from 2006?

FFJ, kk, wn
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/printthread.php?t=8037&pp=50&page=2

"JR interview with Walters last night? Because there was a picture of JonBenet flashed on the screen for about 2 seconds
and I had never seen that picture before. She had on something black, like a black boa or black costume, dress...something. It went by so fast," - kk

"This one, and you are right, it is unfamiliar." - wn

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/boa.jpg

 

[FrankieB]

As with anything Ramsey, it is a maze. On one hand all we have is a third hand recollection heard at a party. On the other hand there are so many bizarre things in the case that it would not be all that surprising.

But what somebody in that thread pointed out does stand out: would Patsy truly have a nude suggestive photograph hung there for the help to see? also if there were home tours it would involve hiding the picture, sounds like a real inconvenience.

Lately I'm on the fence about many things but I would like to point out when I bring something into question, it's not because I have suddenly become Pro-Ramsey. Not at all...I question what at first glance does not make any sense.

That boa picture is but a tiny drop in the sea of all the things that have remained yet to be explained. 300 new words, the basement pictures, the cigar box, the two sets of christmas photographs, the captioned family album, the third hand comments, etc...

 

[dogperson]

If BR was the one molesting JBR, as is one of the possible theories, would this have been a form of acting out? At his age would it have been more a way to punish or despoil her because she was getting all of PRs attention? Or maybe the grown-up outfits and the makeup PR kept putting on JBR sexualized her in BRs mind?

The reason I ask is I've seen something disturbing on the Facebook posts of a girl a went to high school with. She has both a son and a daughter, although her life seems to be mainly wrapped up in the daughter, placing her in every beauty pageant going. She rarely posts a photo of her son but when she does it's always in a photo that includes the daughter as well, and in every one of them the young pre-teen boy has his sister in an embrace that makes them look like boyfriend/girlfriend. In some photos they are lying on a sofa or a bed in each others arms, or if they are outdoors they always stand with their arms around each other and he's looking at her like a young guy might look at a girl he has a crush on. It's troubling and it reminds me of the weird dynamic in the Ramsey home.

Could a young boy like BR have become obsessed with JBR because PR was so wrapped up with her? Maybe as a way to get close to his mom? Or was the pageant thing something that made him see JBR as not his sister but in some other way?

 

[UKGuy]

If BR was the one molesting JBR, as is one of the possible theories, would this have been a form of acting out? At his age would it have been more a way to punish or despoil her because she was getting all of PRs attention? Or maybe the grown-up outfits and the makeup PR kept putting on JBR sexualized her in BRs mind?

The reason I ask is I've seen something disturbing on the Facebook posts of a girl a went to high school with. She has both a son and a daughter, although her life seems to be mainly wrapped up in the daughter, placing her in every beauty pageant going. She rarely posts a photo of her son but when she does it's always in a photo that includes the daughter as well, and in every one of them the young pre-teen boy has his sister in an embrace that makes them look like boyfriend/girlfriend. In some photos they are lying on a sofa or a bed in each others arms, or if they are outdoors they always stand with their arms around each other and he's looking at her like a young guy might look at a girl he has a crush on. It's troubling and it reminds me of the weird dynamic in the Ramsey home.

Could a young boy like BR have become obsessed with JBR because PR was so wrapped up with her? Maybe as a way to get close to his mom? Or was the pageant thing something that made him see JBR as not his sister but in some other way?

dogperson,
Interesting, I reckon Patsy's promotion of JonBenet via pageants etc, definitely skewed BR's view on things, curiously I don't get any impression of BR being given any sort of role model to follow, maybe that's because I wasn't there?

.

 

[reintarnation]

If BR was the one molesting JBR, as is one of the possible theories, would this have been a form of acting out? At his age would it have been more a way to punish or despoil her because she was getting all of PRs attention? Or maybe the grown-up outfits and the makeup PR kept putting on JBR sexualized her in BRs mind?

...

Could a young boy like BR have become obsessed with JBR because PR was so wrapped up with her? Maybe as a way to get close to his mom? Or was the pageant thing something that made him see JBR as not his sister but in some other way?

Those are very interesting thoughts, dogperson - thanks for sharing! I have never fully supported BDI but have been open to it, and this input from you added grist for the mill.

At the very least it helps to explain why BR could seem so detached and unemotional after JBR's murder even if he wasn't responsible. If he harbored deep-seeded resentment for JBR, he may have initially seen her death as a positive. Sounds pretty twisted, but at the same time it is so hard for us to apply adult reactions to a child - we can't forget that BR was just 9yo when this happened, was living in a very dysfunctional household, and was then thrown into a media poopstorm afterward. Even in death, JBR continued to outshine him in his parents' and now the public's eye. A child of that age is pretty immature, and he may have been more so depending on the dynamics of his upbringing (including being spoiled or overshadowed).

 

[reintarnation]

dogperson,
Interesting, I reckon Patsy's promotion of JonBenet via pageants etc, definitely skewed BR's view on things, curiously I don't get any impression of BR being given any sort of role model to follow, maybe that's because I wasn't there?

Same here, UKGuy. It seemed to me that JR was away on business quite often or otherwise preoccupied. With that going on and PR being so obsessed with JBR and her own social climbing, who was giving BR the attention he needed? Who was his role model? Who did he seek out for parental guidance?

 

[B00kw0rm]

FFJ July 29 2003

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?3459-JonBenet-s-summer-home&p=41107#post41107

"Remember the glamour photo, with a feather boa (and nothing else), when she was...what...3 years old?"

Now, if this is true, and she was three ... I could see Patsy still seeing that as a "cute" baby/toddler picture. Might explain it supposedly being in plain sight.

 

[DeDee]

What picture are you talking about? Because I'm 99% sure I've seen every picture that has been released and I can't think of any that match that description.

What the housekeeper said about the photograph being removed before the police arrived could be true. The boa photo was hanging in the Charlevoix home. JB was appx 3yo. It was in the Rs mastersuite. JB was not wearing black or anything else with it that was noticeable.

A reason the boa picture, which, by the way, shall continue to labeled as s*ft p*rn, and so many other "cutesy" [to Patsy, sexy to me], pictures are important as that it goes to show the sexual dynamics within the family unit. Who was in and who was out and what was it all about? It appears that photos of JonBenet were all over the house. Patsy even discussed how she had some layed out in the basement at a cutting board in order to edit them.


To the blue suitcase:
The adult Dr Seuss book teaches a moral lesson that nudity is common; not the exception. The fact that it is an adult book, if, in fact it is the adult version, is that the title has been secreted from the public for all of these years as part of the evidence as is normal procedure for LEO to do. The script director, Lawrence Schiller, for Perfect Murder, Perfect Town was given many legal documents to peruse for the filming. Ditto for the producers of the Cold Case - The Making of a Killer that had access to actual documents in the investigation.

During photo analysis once, I happened upon the SS:



Upon closer inspection, I discovered the wording was for the adult Dr Seuss book. This particular book is so rare that most never knew the good Dr sketched the nudes much less published a delightful story about the sisters. But there it was. Tucked inside JARs luggage.

Others suggested the body was moved downstairs in suitcase. All manners of ways was the suitcase allegedly involved but Occam's Razor tells us JR placed it in the basement on Dec 23 to ready for their party. Either he or someone else moved it from that position in the basement on into the train room for the night of the murder. If so, and it was moved, then it was for staging purposes. FW even touched it and they were instructed not to touch a thing.

It wasn't until Lou Smit brought in his Intruder Theory that the blue suitcase had much bearing and still doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. IOW, it's a red herring. The Dr Seuss book; however, is significant b/c of the sexual theme of the crime. Otherwise, neither were part of the crime that night.
:cow:

 

[expat79]

Um, pardon my ignorance, but what is the name of this "adult Dr. Seuss book"?

 

[FrankieB]

The seven lady godivas

 

[DeDee]

I didn't change your text. Hell, I quoted your text. Spare me the faux outrage. For the record, I know what you meant by it. You're one of the very few here willing to bring up those extremely inappropriate pics. You get no crap for it yet the times I bring it up, certain people ask me for a mile long list of sources. One of the reasons I like you....you're willing to talk about some things many want kept quiet or wish to ignore. Its why I was surprised by your attempt to censor discussion on the JAR issue.

SBTC- No one knows what that means. Its a "myth" that its religious. Patsy begging Jesus isn't really "ritualistic" although I can see why you(or anyone) might say that. Might have been a spontaneous outburst for all we know.


You insinuated top officials were involved much deeper than that in the first quoted post. You moved the goal posts in the second.

I don't want an argument with you or to start running in circles. I hate that crap.......and I like you. You're a valued member here no doubt. You post lots of information here which helps the newer members and comes in handy in discussions for those of us following the case for years.

Just because you may not agree that JAR had any interest in JOnbenet and nothing in the house can be connected to him does not make it fact. It also doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to discuss it.

If JAR is off limits, Tricia or some other admin needs to say it and sticky this info although if JAR is off limits, I'd imagine Burke should be as well since he was a child at the time. We can talk about Burke molesting her, bashing her over the head during a snack, etc. but mentioning JAR, pics, a suitcase, unexplained/redacted items in his room, and his chaotic room is somehow a no no? That dog don't hunt.

I didn't change your text. Hell, I quoted your text.

Au contrare'.

I wrote:
"celebrate the body, s*ft p*rn"

You wrote:

People(including you) speculate on much worse things than JAR's potential infatuation with Jonbenet and I don't see you or anyone else demanding links or saying its off limits.

religiously ritualistic.....top officials in high offices....*advertiser censored*? Is that a myth or a fact?

Maybe take your own advice instead of trying to censor others.

The Lt Gov of the State of CO is pretty high on the totem pole as it were. Due to TOS, I can go no further than mention the Lt Gov, Mary Lacy, AH with the goal posts, att. Think big. What do you know about Beaver Island? Not I want to know b/c I already do but more asking for you to ask yourself.

If I may clarify my JAR comment. Anyone can say anything about him that they wish as long as it makes reasonable sense according to TOS. JAR can be a #1 Suspect for all I care. Anything he did or didn't do is not off limits, as far as I'm concerned. I believe in liberty that includes free speech. However, in my most humble opinion, it crosses a line to claim that JAR held an infatuation for JonBenet, his stepsister. JB was cute, adorable, a lot of fun for everyone, many people loved her including JAR. Taking his alleged feelings to an infatuation implies something sinister or at least nefarious since she was only 6yo.

Being a typical college student who lived away from home, he likely had little free time to play doctor with JonBenet. In fact, I think highly of JAR for being truthful when telling the LEO that his dad told him that he found JonBenet's body at 11:00. That blew JRs mind, I'm sure b/c he accused JAR of remembering wrong.
:cow:

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

Being a typical college student who lived away from home, he likely had little free time to play doctor with JonBenet. In fact, I think highly of JAR for being truthful when telling the LEO that his dad told him that he found JonBenet's body at 11:00. That blew JRs mind, I'm sure b/c he accused JAR of remembering wrong.

Oh, noes, DeDee. The only thing that makes you think highly of JAR, and I’m going to take that away from you :giggle:. From IRMI (bbm):

In a telephone interview, Stewart Long, the boyfriend of John Ramsey’s daughter Melinda, recounted for me the sudden rush to reach Colorado that he, Melinda, and her brother, John Andrew, had made on the morning of December 26. When they arrived at the Ramsey home shortly after 1 P.M., they were unaware of anything more than that JonBenét had been kidnapped.

Long said that John Ramsey climbed into a van with him and John Andrew and told them that JonBenét “was with Beth now.” The father and son broke down in tears as John Ramsey described how he had discovered the body around eleven o’clock that morning.

I almost dropped the telephone as I reached to make sure the “record” button was pressed on my tape recorder. “When you say eleven o’clock that morning, are you assuming that was Mountain time or Eastern time?”

“I’m assuming that was Mountain time. He said eleven o’clock, so I’m assuming he was speaking of his own time reference.”
​

 

[neesaki]

(rsbm) Oh, noes, DeDee. The only thing that makes you think highly of JAR, and I’m going to take that away from you :giggle:. From IRMI (bbm):

In a telephone interview, Stewart Long, the boyfriend of John Ramsey’s daughter Melinda, recounted for me the sudden rush to reach Colorado that he, Melinda, and her brother, John Andrew, had made on the morning of December 26. When they arrived at the Ramsey home shortly after 1 P.M., they were unaware of anything more than that JonBenét had been kidnapped.

Long said that John Ramsey climbed into a van with him and John Andrew and told them that JonBenét “was with Beth now.” The father and son broke down in tears as John Ramsey described how he had discovered the body around eleven o’clock that morning.

I almost dropped the telephone as I reached to make sure the “record” button was pressed on my tape recorder. “When you say eleven o’clock that morning, are you assuming that was Mountain time or Eastern time?”

“I’m assuming that was Mountain time. He said eleven o’clock, so I’m assuming he was speaking of his own time reference.”
​

I don't remember hearing this, it's chilling. This was in Steve Thomas' book ? TIA

 

[observation]

Just for the record it may have been Dr.Seuss's book "Oh, the Places You'll Go." I bought this book for a friend when he graduated from college. It's a motivational whimsical book toward a bright future. That's my guess.

https://www.amazon.com/Oh-Places-Youll-Dr-Seuss/dp/0679805273

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DeDee]

(rsbm) Oh, noes, DeDee. The only thing that makes you think highly of JAR, and I’m going to take that away from you :giggle:. From IRMI (bbm):

In a telephone interview, Stewart Long, the boyfriend of John Ramsey’s daughter Melinda, recounted for me the sudden rush to reach Colorado that he, Melinda, and her brother, John Andrew, had made on the morning of December 26. When they arrived at the Ramsey home shortly after 1 P.M., they were unaware of anything more than that JonBenét had been kidnapped.

Long said that John Ramsey climbed into a van with him and John Andrew and told them that JonBenét “was with Beth now.” The father and son broke down in tears as John Ramsey described how he had discovered the body around eleven o’clock that morning.

I almost dropped the telephone as I reached to make sure the “record” button was pressed on my tape recorder. “When you say eleven o’clock that morning, are you assuming that was Mountain time or Eastern time?”

“I’m assuming that was Mountain time. He said eleven o’clock, so I’m assuming he was speaking of his own time reference.”
​

I do count on your corrections, otg. Just the facts, Ma'am. It has been a lonnng twenty years! JAR did not inform the PoPo. Stewart Long, Melinda's bf, related the story about the 11:00 hour for JBs body discovery straight from JRs mouth to our forum.

That reminds me to ask this question: Do you, or anybody else, have a complete list of the fibers in one cohesive list? TIA

 

[Sunshine4Me]

Just for the record it may have been Dr.Seuss's book "Oh, the Places You'll Go." I bought this book for a friend when he graduated from college. It's a motivational whimsical book toward a bright future. That's my guess.

https://www.amazon.com/Oh-Places-Youll-Dr-Seuss/dp/0679805273

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a kid book. Adult book in this sense means not suitable for kids, i.e. nudity. "Adult" book.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

 

[reintarnation]

Could it be "The Seven Lady Godivas"? :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Lady_Godivas

Note that it was republished in 1987.

The book (this book?) was found in the suitcase with the blanket stained with JAR's semen...I really hope that this book wasn't his "material," if you know what I mean. But then, this was before *advertiser censored* became free and easily accessible on the Internet. Back in pre-Internet or even dial up days, "good material" was hard to come by.

No puns intended...oh geez...going to stop posting now before I make this any worse.

 

[Tadpole12]

https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/03/02/dr-seuss-seven-lady-godivas/

Yes Dr Seuss' Little-Known "Adult" Book of Nudes.

 

[singularity]

Could it be "The Seven Lady Godivas"? :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Lady_Godivas

Note that it was republished in 1987.

The book (this book?) was found in the suitcase with the blanket stained with JAR's semen...I really hope that this book wasn't his "material," if you know what I mean. But then, this was before *advertiser censored* became free and easily accessible on the Internet. Back in pre-Internet or even dial up days, "good material" was hard to come by.

No puns intended...oh geez...going to stop posting now before I make this any worse.

Yeah the actual title of the book has always been controversial on the forums....especially from those who don't think she was abused and/or that JAR was as pure as the driven snow.

IMO the actual title(whether the adult book or Cat in the Hat) is almost beside the point although this adult book does give it an even more sinister feel.

Some people act like this evidence is no big deal and they wouldn't think anything of it. I've seen parents here say this....which is disturbing. I'd hope if they found a suitcase in their house containing a semen stained blanket and a Dr Seuss book, they would start asking questions immediately and find out what is going on in their house.

The suitcase and more specifically its contents have a story to tell. Even IF it is mere staging....it means something. Those items are not together by accident.