Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[UKGuy]

IDK. All of us, RDI, have more than one theory. Even GJ who has better exposure to the actual facts couldn't determined who did what.

I'll be honest, sometimes, on the back of my mind, I could see Patsy, as crazy as she could be, loosing her last hope to leave in perfect world through JB, seeing the 'damaged goods' of her priceless gem - becomes the religious maniac: in the stupor from the horror she go's into religious trance of sacraficing. I'm not religious person. My knowledge of the rituals are limited to documented examples on the net and books in library. But strangulation, binding and virginity (or punishment as the ABSENCE of virginity!)...could draw posible scenario for another theory. The only hole will be: what role JR plays in it? Because I'm sure, prior 'finding' her at 1pm - he knew what happened.

jmo

OpenMind4U,
Of course JR knew where to look, it was probably his plan to put JonBenet into the wine-cellar, you reckon Patsy would want her baby dumped in there?

I think JonBenet was living in a culture of abuse, with her pageant role seemingly normalizing it all. Eventually someone went too far and killed JonBenet, and since the R's had money they were able to buy off justice.

If the indictment process and all the information is made public via a FOI there will probably be a media feeding frenzy, with calls for JR to make statements etc.


.

 

[SunnieRN]

OpenMind4U,
Of course JR knew where to look, it was probably his plan to put JonBenet into the wine-cellar, you reckon Patsy would want her baby dumped in there?

I think JonBenet was living in a culture of abuse, with her pageant role seemingly normalizing it all. Eventually someone went too far and killed JonBenet, and since the R's had money they were able to buy off justice.

If the indictment process and all the information is made public via a FOI there will probably be a media feeding frenzy, with calls for JR to make statements etc.


.

Which brings up another question or two in my mind. Where was JR during his disappearing act at 11 and wasn't the wine cellar searched the first time with the basement?

 

[UKGuy]

Which brings up another question or two in my mind. Where was JR during his disappearing act at 11 and wasn't the wine cellar searched the first time with the basement?

SunnieRN,
From memory, not always a good move, Fleet White looked into the wine-cellar and saw nothing suspect, another officer French saw the wine-cellar locked externally so looked no further.

It has always been assumed that JR could have moved JonBenet when he went missing.

I have always found it interesting that FW had to return to a scene he had just visited, as if he could not believe what had just transpired?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Misdirection or framing of one Ramsey by another is something I've been mulling over as well.

Another WACKY scenario might be that BR and JBR were up to something in the basement (or even in the kitchen). BR hits her on the head, discovers she's unresponsive, and then alerts one of the parents. OR, he leaves her there and goes back to bed. PR wakes up to take JBR to the bathroom and discovers she's not in bed. She wakes JR and they find JBR with the head injury. They know BR is responsible and decide to cover it up.

Interestingly, if BR has gone back to bed after the head bash, the cover up could also have been a kind of brainwashing of BR. Is there a chance in *#!^ that BR inflicted the head blow but that PR and JR brainwashed him into thinking he was not responsible? I know the head blow was not the actual cause of death, but hopefully it's clear what I'm getting at here. JR and PR come upon a scene that they know is caused by BR, but they see a way to craft a narrative that tells a different story. This would actually explain why the Ramsey's say over and over again the media that they are not responsible--it is part of the false narrative they've constructed to conceal the truth, both from the police, and from BR.

You'd think that BR would put the pieces together after all these years...but brainwashing is a powerful thing.

Lets think again about our old "bugaboos" Livor mortis and rigor mortis. In your theory, it is livor mortis that comes into play. Livor mortis (the postmortem pooling of the blood in the parts of the body closet to the floor/ground begins immediately after the heart stops beating (and blood stops circulating) but becomes apparent looking at the body within 10-20 minutes of death. Once a livor pattern forms, it is permanent and will REMAIN even if the body is moved and a SECOND pattern forms. Had she collapsed in the kitchen or anywhere else, her body would have had to be put in the position she was found in within that first 10-20 minutes. This is not theory- this is science and cannot be dismissed. I am not saying it is impossible, but I do not think it is likely they could have gotten her wiped down, redressed and placed on her back in the wine cellar - and the garroting happening somewhere BEFORE death, remember- all before the FIRST livor pattern had formed.
I'll try to paint a better picture of livor patterns for some posters who may have missed it the last time:
Picture a glass bowl and you are making red jello. At first, the jello is liquid, as soon as you pour in the boiling water. Then- as time passes- it begins to thicken, but is still liquid enough that if you pick up the bowl and tilt it, some of the red liquid will slosh up against the side of the glass bowl. When you set the bowl level again on the table, that thick coating of semi-liquid jello will remain on the side of the bowl. THAT is the FIRST livor pattern. Then- pick up the bowl again and tilt it again. ANOTHER pattern will form either OVER it or in another spot on the bowl so now you'll see TWO patterns. This could continue each time the bowl is moved UNTIL at some point the jello has completely jelled and become semi-solid. At that point, even if you move the bowl and tilt it, another pattern will NOT form. When this happens in the body (the blood gels) Livor is then known as NON-Blanching or "fixed". The coroner described her livor as non-blanching. You can see blanching in your won body. Just press on your arm- and that white spot that forms where your finger presses is known as "blanching". When livor first begins it is in the UNfixed or Non-blanching stage.
JB had ONE livor pattern. By the time her livor mortis had become FIXED- there were a lot of people in the house and any one of them could have walked in on her body being moved. BUT- JR could have gone into the winecellar alone, shut the door and mover her closer to the doorway without being seen.

 

[DeeDee249]

Which brings up another question or two in my mind. Where was JR during his disappearing act at 11 and wasn't the wine cellar searched the first time with the basement?

No one knows where he was. He didn't leave the house, as Det. Arndt so stupidly suggested. (She later admitted she did not know for a fact that JB "went to get his mail" - she only said that because she saw him LOOKING at some mail). JR could certainly have been in the wine cellar without anyone else knowing where he was.
The first officer there, Officer French, found the wine cellar door but never looked up to see the little wood latch that held the door shut from the OUTSIDE. He never even thought someone might be hiding INSIDE and the door was locked from the inside with the perp still in there! Amazingly, he just walked away from it and did not even mention it to the FBI when they arrived a bit later. Simply astounding. There- in the FIRST MINUTES of police investigating the case- French BLEW it. There was ONE chance for a preserved, uncontaminated crime scene and he blew it- forever.

 

[OpenMind4U]

No one knows where he was. He didn't leave the house, as Det. Arndt so stupidly suggested. (She later admitted she did not know for a fact that JB "went to get his mail" - she only said that because she saw him LOOKING at some mail). JR could certainly have been in the wine cellar without anyone else knowing where he was.
The first officer there, Officer French, found the wine cellar door but never looked up to see the little wood latch that held the door shut from the OUTSIDE. He never even thought someone might be hiding INSIDE and the door was locked from the inside with the perp still in there! Amazingly, he just walked away from it and did not even mention it to the FBI when they arrived a bit later. Simply astounding. There- in the FIRST MINUTES of police investigating the case- French BLEW it. There was ONE chance for a preserved, uncontaminated crime scene and he blew it- forever.

You're correct, French blew it and he would never forgive himself for that...BUT at that time NOBODY was looking for BODY INSIDE!!! LE was executing the KIDNAPPING procedure which requires to identify 'entry/exit' points. When French saw the door with the letch OUTSIDE ON - he was assuming that this door couldn't be the ENTRY/EXIT door.

It was the strange situation for BPD. In addition to holiday and limited resources, the call for 'kidnapping' put BPD in unknown territory. Boulder BPD never before dealed with 'kidnapping'. I'm not making 'excuse' for incompetence...I'm simply saying: Ramseys were damn LUCKY that morning!!!...and for another 16 years since....:banghead:

 

[DeeDee249]

You're correct, French blew it and he would never forgive himself for that...BUT at that time NOBODY was looking for BODY INSIDE!!! LE was executing the KIDNAPPING procedure which requires to identify 'entry/exit' points. When French saw the door with the letch OUTSIDE ON - he was assuming that this door couldn't be the ENTRY/EXIT door.

It was the strange situation for BPD. In addition to holiday and limited resources, the call for 'kidnapping' put BPD in unknown territory. Boulder BPD never before dealed with 'kidnapping'. I'm not making 'excuse' for incompetence...I'm simply saying: Ramseys were damn LUCKY that morning!!!...and for another 16 years since....:banghead:

The thing is- French never saw the latch. By his own admission, he never looked up and saw it. He tried to open the door, found it wouldn't budge, and that was the end of it. Unless he later changed his story to appear less idiotic.

 

[Nom de plume]

Lets think again about our old "bugaboos" Livor mortis and rigor mortis. In your theory, it is livor mortis that comes into play. Livor mortis (the postmortem pooling of the blood in the parts of the body closet to the floor/ground begins immediately after the heart stops beating (and blood stops circulating) but becomes apparent looking at the body within 10-20 minutes of death. Once a livor pattern forms, it is permanent and will REMAIN even if the body is moved and a SECOND pattern forms. Had she collapsed in the kitchen or anywhere else, her body would have had to be put in the position she was found in within that first 10-20 minutes. This is not theory- this is science and cannot be dismissed. I am not saying it is impossible, but I do not think it is likely they could have gotten her wiped down, redressed and placed on her back in the wine cellar - and the garroting happening somewhere BEFORE death, remember- all before the FIRST livor pattern had formed.
I'll try to paint a better picture of livor patterns for some posters who may have missed it the last time:
Picture a glass bowl and you are making red jello. At first, the jello is liquid, as soon as you pour in the boiling water. Then- as time passes- it begins to thicken, but is still liquid enough that if you pick up the bowl and tilt it, some of the red liquid will slosh up against the side of the glass bowl. When you set the bowl level again on the table, that thick coating of semi-liquid jello will remain on the side of the bowl. THAT is the FIRST livor pattern. Then- pick up the bowl again and tilt it again. ANOTHER pattern will form either OVER it or in another spot on the bowl so now you'll see TWO patterns. This could continue each time the bowl is moved UNTIL at some point the jello has completely jelled and become semi-solid. At that point, even if you move the bowl and tilt it, another pattern will NOT form. When this happens in the body (the blood gels) Livor is then known as NON-Blanching or "fixed". The coroner described her livor as non-blanching. You can see blanching in your won body. Just press on your arm- and that white spot that forms where your finger presses is known as "blanching". When livor first begins it is in the UNfixed or Non-blanching stage.
JB had ONE livor pattern. By the time her livor mortis had become FIXED- there were a lot of people in the house and any one of them could have walked in on her body being moved. BUT- JR could have gone into the winecellar alone, shut the door and mover her closer to the doorway without being seen.

Thanks so much for the jello analogy! Although I understood the basics, it gave me a better "visual"understanding. You are a wealth of knowledge!

I have a question for you. My thoughts keep going to the marks on her back and that they sure appear to be made by the train tracks. Is there any possibility that she was killed wherever and hidden in the crawl space immediately after death until livor was fixed, then moved to the WC during JR's disappearance? Would livor be fixed by then? How many hours does it take to be fixed after death?

I'm not saying that she wasn't in the wine cellar all along, but just speculating due to the fact that the train was set up right in front of the entrance to the CS. It seems like an easy explanation that while trying to lay her on the table (in order to open the "door" to the CS), JR might have caught her back against a loose piece of track on the edge of the table.

I guess that brings up another question, (which I know there has been some talk about but no clear answer that I could see) could those marks have been made after death? There was no actual bleeding from them IIRC.

I've always believed that JR did some re-staging during his missing time. He could have pulled her closer to the entrance of the WC, but why? If he knew that he would "find" her later what difference did it make how close she was to the door?

My hesitation about her being in the WC all along is that it was only dumb luck that she wasn't found by French or FW, and I don't believe that they wanted her found in the house. It would be far less likely that she would be found in the CS than the WC. I think they had every intention of dumping her elsewhere after LE left. Then when LE didn't leave, JR moved to plan B.

The thing is- French never saw the latch. By his own admission, he never looked up and saw it. He tried to open the door, found it wouldn't budge, and that was the end of it. Unless he later changed his story to appear less idiotic.

I remember reading that French DID NOT see the latch, but somewhere else reading that he DID see the latch and said he didn't bother to go in because no one could have exited through there and latched it from the inside. I'm pretty sure it was that he didn't in ST's book and that he did in FF, but I'm not sure. I'll look for it later.

 

[SunnieRN]

SunnieRN,
From memory, not always a good move, Fleet White looked into the wine-cellar and saw nothing suspect, another officer French saw the wine-cellar locked externally so looked no further.

It has always been assumed that JR could have moved JonBenet when he went missing.

I have always found it interesting that FW had to return to a scene he had just visited, as if he could not believe what had just transpired?


.

I knew about French, but I also thought FW looked in the wine cellar earlier in the day. That would prove that someone moved JonBenet there at a later time. (Someone I believe to be JR). It may be that when French wandered past the locked door, JonBenet wasn't yet present in the room.

No one knows where he was. He didn't leave the house, as Det. Arndt so stupidly suggested. (She later admitted she did not know for a fact that JB "went to get his mail" - she only said that because she saw him LOOKING at some mail). JR could certainly have been in the wine cellar without anyone else knowing where he was.
The first officer there, Officer French, found the wine cellar door but never looked up to see the little wood latch that held the door shut from the OUTSIDE. He never even thought someone might be hiding INSIDE and the door was locked from the inside with the perp still in there! Amazingly, he just walked away from it and did not even mention it to the FBI when they arrived a bit later. Simply astounding. There- in the FIRST MINUTES of police investigating the case- French BLEW it. There was ONE chance for a preserved, uncontaminated crime scene and he blew it- forever.

From my understanding, their mail was delivered into a mail slot in the R's door. Again, if FW did look into the wine cellar, I would think this would prove dead to rights that JR moved JonBenet. This proves involvement and prior knowledge. Especially with what he stated to JAR and SL.

LA, French, the investigation got off to a very poor start.

 

[OpenMind4U]

The thing is- French never saw the latch. By his own admission, he never looked up and saw it. He tried to open the door, found it wouldn't budge, and that was the end of it. Unless he later changed his story to appear less idiotic.

DD, both of us are RIGHT and both of us are WRONG on the issue of who saw FIRST WC door and does this person saw or not the 'letch on'. How this could be?! From Kolar book, page 27-30.

While French remained with the parents, Reichenbach conducted an inspection of all three floors of the home, including basement...he noted that at the far end of the basement was a white door secured at the top by block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, but stopped when it was apparent that it would not have been either a point of entry or exit from home...

The exact timing of events is not clear, but French was purportedly the second person to inspect the basement after things had stabilized at the scene. He reported that he...gone to the basement sometimes before the arrival of civilian at the home.

Much has been made about his failure to discover the body of JonBenet in the Wine Cellar during this walkthrough, but like Reichenbach, one must understand what was going through his head at the time.

This was not a situation where a child was merely missing and possibly hiding in the home. The family was reporting a kidnapping of their child, and he had been shown a ransom note as proof. French was checking the interior of the home for a possible point of entry or exit that wuld have been used by kidnapper(s). The door to the Wine Cellar was secured by wooden block and it showed no sign of having been forcibly entered from the exterior. There simply was no reason at the time to go into that room.

So, here we have TWO POLICE OFFICERS who didn't open WC door!....like I said before, Ramseys were damn lucky. Their 'kidnapping' plan was perfectly worked in Boulder.:banghead:

 

[Darlene733510]

When the family went to dinner at the White residence, I would guess that JB had on the size 6 panties. The size 6 must have been removed at home, but what happened to those panties ? We're they in the clothes hamper or taken into evidence? I would imagine she was put to bed in the size 6, and the size 12 's were put on, her along with the long johns, in the basement.
As UK seems to think that the pajama bottoms are missing, there could also be panties for Wednesday missing also. The person who removed the size 6 would have left touch DNA, and maybe something else. If all this has already been discussed forgive me, as I have been away from this case for a long time.

 

[UKGuy]

I knew about French, but I also thought FW looked in the wine cellar earlier in the day. That would prove that someone moved JonBenet there at a later time. (Someone I believe to be JR). It may be that when French wandered past the locked door, JonBenet wasn't yet present in the room.



From my understanding, their mail was delivered into a mail slot in the R's door. Again, if FW did look into the wine cellar, I would think this would prove dead to rights that JR moved JonBenet. This proves involvement and prior knowledge. Especially with what he stated to JAR and SL.

LA, French, the investigation got off to a very poor start.

SunnieRN,
Yes FW had a look in the wine-cellar and saw nothing unusual. Maybe JR moved JonBenet further back or relocated her to the wine-cellar who knows?

FW probably has testimony to the effect he reckons the wine-cellar did not contain JonBenet when he first looked.

I'm pretty certain that FW returned to the Wine-Cellar to check if he could have missed JonBenet earlier that day, or maybe he noted something in the wine-cellar that he knows was not present when he looked in that morning?

.

 

[Magdalyn]

SunnieRN,
Yes FW had a look in the wine-cellar and saw nothing unusual. Maybe JR moved JonBenet further back or relocated her to the wine-cellar who knows?

FW probably has testimony to the effect he reckons the wine-cellar did not contain JonBenet when he first looked.

I'm pretty certain that FW returned to the Wine-Cellar to check if he could have missed JonBenet earlier that day, or maybe he noted something in the wine-cellar that he knows was not present when he looked in that morning?

.

I had the brief thought recently that with rigor mortis and the position of her body (straight, not curled up fetally, arms over head?) is it possible that he had temporarily (after livor mortis) propped her upright....and behind the door that people kept opening?

So when everyone peeked in, nothing. When JR goes in and Fleet is in another part of the basement, he swings her from her propped position and lays her in the center of the floor. Viola! Found her. Scream to bring Fleet running.

Admittedly, this could be a crap theory. :blushing: Just throwing spaghetti. Not sure on JB's livor mortis findings.

ETA: I just now realized if this door had a piece of wood at the top barring it closed, then the door must swing out into the hall, not into the room. So nevermind!

 

[UKGuy]

When the family went to dinner at the White residence, I would guess that JB had on the size 6 panties. The size 6 must have been removed at home, but what happened to those panties ? We're they in the clothes hamper or taken into evidence? I would imagine she was put to bed in the size 6, and the size 12 's were put on, her along with the long johns, in the basement.
As UK seems to think that the pajama bottoms are missing, there could also be panties for Wednesday missing also. The person who removed the size 6 would have left touch DNA, and maybe something else. If all this has already been discussed forgive me, as I have been away from this case for a long time.

Darlene733510,
Thats what most of us assume. There is no reference to underwear size on any of the evidence lists, only if its female etc.

If the FOI request is successful we might find out exactly what was in JonBenet's underwear drawer, i.e. days of the week etc.

It seems a reasonable assumption that JonBenet might have been wearing the pink pajama bottoms and her size-6 underwear, that both appear to be missing, may not be coinicidental.

Although the pink barbie nighgown has a bloodstain, yet the pink pajama top to seems untouched? So it might be the pink pajama bottoms have been found but not recorded for public consumption?

Given the abrasions on JonBenet you might expect any clothing to be dirty or torn in some respect? Not unless you assume JonBenet was entirely naked prior to her head blow? Which would account for no clothing seeming to be disturbed.

So that would be my prima facie assumption: JonBenet was naked then redressed more than once, and that her head rested on her bedroom pillow at some point. Whether she lay in her bed unconcious or the pillow was brought to her is an open question?

The known source of blood from JonBenet was due to her internal injury. So was she lying over the pillow or were her size-6 underwear or pink pajama bottoms bloodied placed on the pillow at some point, or did the bloodstain come from her nose? That there are two bloodstains seems to suggest either direct contact with JonBenet, her underwear or pajama bottoms?

The above assumption would explain why the pink pajama bottoms and size-6 underwear have vanished.

If the missing size-6 underwear is Bloomingdales Wednesday day of the week, then I reckon either JR or BR redressed JonBenet, to deliberately deceive PR.

Otherwise why would PR be ignorant as to the size-12's and the location of the remaining pairs, i.e. she was not in on this aspect of the staging?


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I have gone back and forth on this between P and J, and I've just now decided that it was BOTH.

All we need to do is flip through these threads to see that male/female pedophile teams are scarily COMMON. Now the idiots are posting it online they're being caught, but back before the internet was available pedos probably took their own home movies and photos....my point is, they have always existed in secret, just not at the level we know about these days.

I do not find it difficult at all to believe that J was the molester, and P possibly held the camera/obeyed orders/joined in willingly.

It would explain the grooming of a baby into a Las Vegas Showgirl... to please or excite the man.

We know P and J's sex life was non-existent (despite P insisting it was active and healthy) so it makes a sick type of sense to think she groomed her beautiful mini-me to fulfill that part of her marriage....and perhaps her own sick needs.

:sick:

 

[midwestphd]

Lets think again about our old "bugaboos" Livor mortis and rigor mortis. In your theory, it is livor mortis that comes into play. Livor mortis (the postmortem pooling of the blood in the parts of the body closet to the floor/ground begins immediately after the heart stops beating (and blood stops circulating) but becomes apparent looking at the body within 10-20 minutes of death. Once a livor pattern forms, it is permanent and will REMAIN even if the body is moved and a SECOND pattern forms. Had she collapsed in the kitchen or anywhere else, her body would have had to be put in the position she was found in within that first 10-20 minutes. This is not theory- this is science and cannot be dismissed. I am not saying it is impossible, but I do not think it is likely they could have gotten her wiped down, redressed and placed on her back in the wine cellar - and the garroting happening somewhere BEFORE death, remember- all before the FIRST livor pattern had formed.

Would the head bash, not being the ultimate cause of death, have stopped blood circulation? Could she have been down in the basement with the head injury for awhile before being discovered by PR and JR, who then instigate the garroting? :waitasec:

Just trying to understand--the livor/rigor aspects are my weakest area of knowledge, for sure.

 

[Nom de plume]

I had the brief thought recently that with rigor mortis and the position of her body (straight, not curled up fetally, arms over head?) is it possible that he had temporarily (after livor mortis) propped her upright....and behind the door that people kept opening?

So when everyone peeked in, nothing. When JR goes in and Fleet is in another part of the basement, he swings her from her propped position and lays her in the center of the floor. Viola! Found her. Scream to bring Fleet running.

Admittedly, this could be a crap theory. :blushing: Just throwing spaghetti. Not sure on JB's livor mortis findings.

The WC door opens out, not in, thus the wooden "latch" at the top of the door on the outside. In other words, you'd swivel the wooden latch open, then pull the door open towards you instead of pushing it into the WC. (Backwards of how doors commonly swing.)

Not a bad theory though. The hands over her head vs. in front of her face has been debated before. If they were indeed over her head she might have been suspended or tied up to something. If they were in front of her face (some say due to rigor) then it's not as likely. We know her hands were not tied tightly around the wrists, and that they were not tied closely together. So the question to me is, was this simply staging to back up the kidnapping gone wrong, or was there a true purpose for her hands being tied the way they were? If it was staging, then why not tie them more tightly and closer together, unless this was done after rigor set in and they couldn't be tied closer together. Kind of makes me think that they were tied loosely so as not to leave marks and maybe farther apart to hook them over something? :waitasec:

 

[Nom de plume]

I have gone back and forth on this between P and J, and I've just now decided that it was BOTH.

All we need to do is flip through these threads to see that male/female pedophile teams are scarily COMMON. Now the idiots are posting it online they're being caught, but back before the internet was available pedos probably took their own home movies and photos....my point is, they have always existed in secret, just not at the level we know about these days.

I do not find it difficult at all to believe that J was the molester, and P possibly held the camera/obeyed orders/joined in willingly.

It would explain the grooming of a baby into a Las Vegas Showgirl... to please or excite the man.

We know P and J's sex life was non-existent (despite P insisting it was active and healthy) so it makes a sick type of sense to think she groomed her beautiful mini-me to fulfill that part of her marriage....and perhaps her own sick needs.

:sick:

First of all :welcome6:

That has to be one of the sickest, most disgusting theories I've ever heard....and entirely possible!

We know JR married one beauty queen, we know he named his boat the Miss America, and it's been rumored that while out of town he asked for a call girl dressed as a beauty queen to be sent up to his hotel room. IMO, that means he has a thing for beauty queens. Does he care how old they are? IMO, I don't think so.

I think the pageant thing started out as a "family tradition". Did it progress to something else? Was Patsy sick enough (mentally) to offer her own daughter up to a pervert? I seriously doubt we'll ever know, but I can't say I'd put it past her. It's hard for me to imagine that she would willingly join in, but it's hard for a lot of IDIs to believe that either parent had anything to do with her death. It's rare, but there are some women that sexually molest their own children.

I feel sure that JR was molesting JB. Patsy's knowledge and/or participation is where I'm on the :fence:.

 

[Magdalyn]

First of all :welcome6:

That has to be one of the sickest, most disgusting theories I've ever heard....and entirely possible!

We know JR married one beauty queen, we know he named his boat the Miss America, and it's been rumored that while out of town he asked for a call girl dressed as a beauty queen to be sent up to his hotel room. IMO, that means he has a thing for beauty queens. Does he care how old they are? IMO, I don't think so.

I think the pageant thing started out as a "family tradition". Did it progress to something else? Was Patsy sick enough (mentally) to offer her own daughter up to a pervert? I seriously doubt we'll ever know, but I can't say I'd put it past her. It's hard for me to imagine that she would willingly join in, but it's hard for a lot of IDIs to believe that either parent had anything to do with her death. It's rare, but there are some women that sexually molest their own children.

I feel sure that JR was molesting JB. Patsy's knowledge and/or participation is where I'm on the :fence:.

I'm on the fence too. (about PR, not JR) And by knowledge of, it could even be the Dottie Sandusky turn the other cheek knowledge. The how could you not know knowledge where people build defenses/excuses so they don't have to deal.

I have wondered if she was put in a position that night of walking in on/witnessing JR in the act, or, not long after the act, found JBR wet herself, Patsy was put out and angry about cleaning her up, then in the midst of changing her, confronted with the vaginal trauma evidence and misdirected her anger. The "what did YOU do?" kind of anger, misdirected at JBR

You know, like when you hear about a woman who wants to kill the woman her husband is cheating with? Instead of wanting to kill her husband?

In that theory, it would explain the devils bargain they made, sticking together and sticking to the story.

You tell on me, I'll tell on you.

Many of you sleuthers appear to be far more versed than me on the details of the case, so I'm not sure how viable that theory is. :seeya:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Oh Dottie. :shakehead:

Patsy also was one sick, sick individual. She's redecorating the special circle in hell right now.

John could have just been your garden variety "she's my daughter I'm entitled" type child molester.

Put them together and you have a very dysfunctional combination indeed.

It is all reliant on whether or not you believe an IDI.

If you are RDI, then you already know that they are scheming, lying, unnatural individuals. They have used the media shamelessly to claim their innocence, over and over, and we know they were bald faced lying.

Some believe BDI and P and R tried to protect their remaining child - as if. They would've protected the first one by dialling 911. Anyone who wasn't on the phone to 911 THE SECOND they found their injured baby convulsing on a floor, is totally psychopathic.

The fact that they even stopped for a second and PLOTTED while JB was dying on their floor, pretty much confirms to me that they are also the only ones in that house capable of causing the crime in the first place.

B was a child too, and a small one. They would have had no idea if he killed his sister, or how, or care why, they would have been on 911 and figuring it out afterwards once they'd called their fancy lawyers.

This didn't happen, in my mind, because they were protecting themselves. They went too far in the abuse, the "ritual sex game" and they are the ones who hurt and killed JB. Together.

Nothing else explains the cover up in my opinion. They were both guilty, and they both knew it.

:cow: