I wonder if M's parents saw his FB. Maybe they did and thought they could change him or did not take it seriously.
GUILTY WI - Dr. Beth Potter and husband murdered at UW Arboretum, Madison, March 2020 *Arrests*
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Are we sure this isn't the detective's personal interpretation? Because the witness statement in the AF doesn't mention planning a robbery at all:
"DF told Agent Folkers that he overheard a discussion between Miriam and Khari in a ceramics class at West High School shortly before school was canceled in March 2020during which Miriam discussed with Khari the idea of how they could get money. DF reported hearing Miriam tell Khari Sanford that her parents had “bands” of money and that they were rich. DF reported that “bands” likely meant thousands of dollars in cash..."
Discussing how to get money isn't quite the same thing as planning a robbery. It seems strange to me that if the witness had actually said he overheard them planning a robbery, it wouldn't be mentioned in the AF. Moreover, planning a robbery during a high school class where other people can overhear doesn't make much sense. Said conversation also took place in early March, right at the start of the period when they were both living with M's parents. Maybe they were planning on mooching of them?
Based on the evidence I've seen so far, I'm not convinced M was significantly involved. These teens aren't exactly plotters on the level of Ernst Stavro Blofeld or Richard, Duke of Gloucester. By now enough time has gone by for all of their phone conversations to have been recovered and for them to have been interrogated multiple times. If M was significantly involved, we really should've seen an arrest by now, unless the police and DA are playing some kind of 3-dimensional chess. There are also a few things that stand out to me in her text messages:
11:19:14PM-Sent a text to SD: “I hear him I think tho”
11:19:18PM-Sent a text to SD: “Like I think he just pulled up”.
11:19:20PM-Sent a text to SD: “Like w someone”.
11:19:30PM-Sent a text to SD: “But yes its him”.
11:19:30PM-Sent a text to SD: “But yes its him”.
11:22:00PM-Sent a text to SD: “It’s Huncho”
11:22:07PM-Sent a text to SD: “His friend got into a situation”.
From the above, it appears M didn't know Sanford was with Larrue (Huncho) ("like w someone" and later "It's Huncho"). Moreover, M was then told Larrue had gotten into a situation. Not "They got into a situation", but Larrue specifically. Interesting phrasing, considering that Sanford is the primary defendant. It makes me suspect they didn't tell her what actually happened. What did they tell her?
"DF told Agent Folkers that he overheard a discussion between Miriam and Khari in a ceramics class at West High School shortly before school was canceled in March 2020during which Miriam discussed with Khari the idea of how they could get money. DF reported hearing Miriam tell Khari Sanford that her parents had “bands” of money and that they were rich. DF reported that “bands” likely meant thousands of dollars in cash..."
Discussing how to get money isn't quite the same thing as planning a robbery. It seems strange to me that if the witness had actually said he overheard them planning a robbery, it wouldn't be mentioned in the AF. Moreover, planning a robbery during a high school class where other people can overhear doesn't make much sense. Said conversation also took place in early March, right at the start of the period when they were both living with M's parents. Maybe they were planning on mooching of them?
Based on the evidence I've seen so far, I'm not convinced M was significantly involved. These teens aren't exactly plotters on the level of Ernst Stavro Blofeld or Richard, Duke of Gloucester. By now enough time has gone by for all of their phone conversations to have been recovered and for them to have been interrogated multiple times. If M was significantly involved, we really should've seen an arrest by now, unless the police and DA are playing some kind of 3-dimensional chess. There are also a few things that stand out to me in her text messages:
11:19:14PM-Sent a text to SD: “I hear him I think tho”
11:19:18PM-Sent a text to SD: “Like I think he just pulled up”.
11:19:20PM-Sent a text to SD: “Like w someone”.
11:19:30PM-Sent a text to SD: “But yes its him”.
11:19:30PM-Sent a text to SD: “But yes its him”.
11:22:00PM-Sent a text to SD: “It’s Huncho”
11:22:07PM-Sent a text to SD: “His friend got into a situation”.
From the above, it appears M didn't know Sanford was with Larrue (Huncho) ("like w someone" and later "It's Huncho"). Moreover, M was then told Larrue had gotten into a situation. Not "They got into a situation", but Larrue specifically. Interesting phrasing, considering that Sanford is the primary defendant. It makes me suspect they didn't tell her what actually happened. What did they tell her?
stmarysmead
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How would she know in 7 seconds that “his friend got ina situation.”
Sounds like she’s already lying to me. In 7 seconds Khari would hardly have time to get in the house and tell her that. It took her two minutes from the time she saw Khari to when she realizes Larrue is with him.
Perhaps she knew about the robbery, just didn’t know that Khari was taking anyone with him. That may have been a surprise.
Also, didn’t the boys exit the car and start tossing a destroyed phone and a letter to Dr Potter in the woods? That couldn’t all be done in 2 seconds.
I wonder if any evidence has been able to be recovered from the “destroyed” phone?
As for the detectives testimony, he was under oath.
It’s just an expansion of the first statement in the Arrest affidavit.
Sounds like she’s already lying to me. In 7 seconds Khari would hardly have time to get in the house and tell her that. It took her two minutes from the time she saw Khari to when she realizes Larrue is with him.
Perhaps she knew about the robbery, just didn’t know that Khari was taking anyone with him. That may have been a surprise.
Also, didn’t the boys exit the car and start tossing a destroyed phone and a letter to Dr Potter in the woods? That couldn’t all be done in 2 seconds.
I wonder if any evidence has been able to be recovered from the “destroyed” phone?
As for the detectives testimony, he was under oath.
It’s just an expansion of the first statement in the Arrest affidavit.
I think that this is the core concept when trying to analyze the thoughts of these criminals.
There is probably a very good chance that the perpetrators themselves did not know what their full intentions were, let alone have any real plans, when they drove towards the home. Instead, they would just make impulsive snd erratic decisions as the events unfolded.
Rather than analyze their dim witted planning, it might be better to look at what they "knew":
- the victims had the fabled bands of cash. Those who have bands of cash also have mandatory over the top bling jewelry, mega cell phones etc.
They also "knew" (well, in the world of gangster rap videos- all of which reflect the real world- right?) that:
"Insane gangsters" always get the bling, that they commit a variety of violent crimes with absolutely no fore thought what so ever, nobody ever faces any consequences for their crimes, and... the celebratory parties never end.
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There are roughly two and a half minutes between the moment she recognizes Khari (no doubt as he exited the car) and when she starts texting her friend again. Enough time for Khari and Larrue to walk to the Airbnb, enter the apartment and tell her Larrue had gotten into a situation. It's clear she got told the story and then started texting her friend again around 11:22:00.
I will say, in my experience as a former law clerk, that someone deliberately trying to plant a false trail through texting is like a dog who can speak: it's pretty rare! A teenager doing that is like a dog who speaks Norwegian. Even rarer! Not many people have that kind of foresight and it usually involves crimes that are waaaay better planned than this one. Occams's Razor applies to many things, including criminal cases. In the absence of new evidence, the simplest and most likely explanation here is that a) M didn't know Larrue was with Khari and b) when they entered the apartment they told her Larrue had gotten into a situation.
I think that's probably very close to what happened.
MimosaMornings
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Where did you get that gun? Where is it now? You’re LIVING in my house shacked up with my DAUGHTER in her bedroom.
Where was KS getting his money from? Was he employed? I would think both KS and M would have a part time job. Unless their parents bought those cutesy matching name necklaces.
Yea, that's what I say.
Making Sense? What about College?
Seems after his actions w foster parent's car and then dealing w LE & judicial system, perp would be a bit more mindful of his behavior. Nope. Thinks he's invincible?
{{{ETA: Did he actually apply to colleges? Have a chance at admission? Or were stmts about that a figment of his imagination?}}}
@Mandos bbm sbm.... Yes, you're right, to WS posters here capable of planning & analyzing situations, that ^ does not make sense.. And perp's posting pix on soc media - selfie w gun pointing at camera - also reflects same/similar mindset, all focus on the immediate (street cred & gangsta rep) w no thought given to any potential future consequences or conclusions by gen public, LE, judge, or jury.
Seems after his actions w foster parent's car and then dealing w LE & judicial system, perp would be a bit more mindful of his behavior. Nope. Thinks he's invincible?
{{{ETA: Did he actually apply to colleges? Have a chance at admission? Or were stmts about that a figment of his imagination?}}}
No, it does not.
But... criminals routinely do a lot of things that don't make sense. Then factor in that this group. as you mentioned, were not exactly say, the Don and Consiglieri of the Gambino family when it comes to analytical thinking skills.
Brazenly planning a robbery while other can over hear also has a practical benefit to the group : Those over hearing spread the word that the group must be "insane" gangsters. No doubt, this leads to prestige- right?
My guess is that they were not planning a specific robbery per se. Rather they were discussing robbery in pursuit of the fabled "bands of cash" as a concept / hypothetical action.
Well said.
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Rockymtnmermaid
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The two were married so likely they often participated in the same exercise routine. Was he a doctor as well? I missed that. I read he was affiliated with the university, providing services to students and their families. so possibly in admission? So sad that a senseless tragedy to occur at a time like this in the world. Prayers to the families
stmarysmead
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“His friend got into a situation.”
I think, as the detective testified under oath, that the two of them planned the crime. Whether it was burglary or murder, time will tell. But I don’t think Miriam expected Larrue to be involved
It’s possible Khari initially told her that Larrue shot her parents. Maybe that’s the “situation” she was told he “got into.” Maybe he told her that they came away with nothing...no bands of cash. Just their only benefactors now gone for good. Money train derailed.
Then she “feels like crying” at this failure but can’t because they are both there. She’s “too loyal” to show her disappointment.
With the burglary a flop, no money, and understanding her parents are dead, Miriam’s best option is to lie for the murderers because the boyfriend is all she has left.
Plus if he’s arrested and her participation in the planning described by the detective at the hearing...is revealed...that could cause her serious problems as well.
I agree with all that these three are not potential members of Mensa.
I think, as the detective testified under oath, that the two of them planned the crime. Whether it was burglary or murder, time will tell. But I don’t think Miriam expected Larrue to be involved
It’s possible Khari initially told her that Larrue shot her parents. Maybe that’s the “situation” she was told he “got into.” Maybe he told her that they came away with nothing...no bands of cash. Just their only benefactors now gone for good. Money train derailed.
Then she “feels like crying” at this failure but can’t because they are both there. She’s “too loyal” to show her disappointment.
With the burglary a flop, no money, and understanding her parents are dead, Miriam’s best option is to lie for the murderers because the boyfriend is all she has left.
Plus if he’s arrested and her participation in the planning described by the detective at the hearing...is revealed...that could cause her serious problems as well.
I agree with all that these three are not potential members of Mensa.
But it is easier to rob one person than two. Also, why put them in a vehicle and march them out to a ditch and execute them? Because IMO they had murder in mind.
I'm not making any excuses for M as things are looking bad for her. But her text where she said she wanted him to bring the car back because she didn't feel safe there (in the Airbnb). What did she mean by that? I know nothing about Madison or the area the Airbnb was located in...is it a part of town where you'd normally be afraid to be alone at night? So I'm now wondering what she was afraid of...maybe M and K had gotten into a situation where they needed a lot of money, fast. Maybe they owed someone who she feared would come by while K was gone.
I am still thinking she did know where and what K was doing that night, though there's also the possibility that while she knew he was up to no good (and was thus willing to alibi him) she may not have known exactly what he was doing (she may have thought he was selling drugs, confronting someone who owed him money or who he owed money to, etc). There are some other scenarios in play since she hasn't been charged with any type of conspiracy yet.
I am still thinking she did know where and what K was doing that night, though there's also the possibility that while she knew he was up to no good (and was thus willing to alibi him) she may not have known exactly what he was doing (she may have thought he was selling drugs, confronting someone who owed him money or who he owed money to, etc). There are some other scenarios in play since she hasn't been charged with any type of conspiracy yet.
Bruiser608
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Anyone else concerned about the lack of direct evidence so far? At the preliminary hearing on Thr. one of the defense lawyers started poking at this issue, but the judge shot down the line of questioning since it was not of relevance for a preliminary hearing. Right now the case hinges on the testimony of DF about KS and the GPS data of EL. That's not a lot to go on, and the two pieces of evidence do not support the claim that they were both involved (the testimony doesn't implicate EL and the GPS data doesn't implicate KS)
But there is also the witness statement of neighbor saying KS’s cell phone and mail from deceased victims thrown out by suspects at AirBNB (and retrieved by police) plus a different witness statement saying that KS was concerned because he heard one victim was not dead and could ID him plus text messages saying that something bad had happened which is perfectly matched timewise to GPS. Plus picture of glock and both suspects implicating each other (which means they were at/aware of the crime scene). Plus this was a preliminary hearing which requires a low threshold of evidence and LE likely has so much more . . .so right now I’m not feeling concerned that LE has the wrong guys.
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stmarysmead
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They have Miriam’s text that asks Khari to return the van. That puts him in the van ...the same van that was in their possession..and they have the GPS data of the vans movements,
They also have a video that showed the two of them return in the van, exit the van, and discard evidence....which was later retrieved.
“On April 5, UWPD Officer Vinson Mulvey made contact with a citizen witness, NS, who lives next to the Air BNB on Sunny Meade Lane where Miriam Potter Carre and Khari Sanford were residing the night of March 30 to March 31. NS believed they may have surveillance video of the two suspects returning to the Sunny Meade Air BNB following the murder of Beth Potter and Robin Carre. NS reports that his video shows a white van entering the neighborhood the night of March 30, two individuals walk out of the van and those individuals throwing items into the woods south of NS’s property.”
Also the AA says they are only showing a “selection” of texts from Miriam’s phone.
“A selection of the relevant messages include:”
So there may be more.
They have pictures of Khari with a certain type gun and there’s will be evidence if that was the type used in the murders.They found a purposely destroyed cell phone. That could also provide evidence.
I believe that DF claimed that the call he overheard was from Khari to Larrue.
LOL, There is nothing here to question. It's a slam dunk.
What about surveillance footage putting the van in the direct vicinity? If I remember correctly...I need to go back and read the affidavit.
Bruiser608
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Thanks for the responses everyone. I guess there is more circumstantial evidence than what I had noted in my first post. Don't get me wrong, I definitely think these guys did it, I just hope there is enough there to get 12/12 to convict.
They arrested these 2 in just a couple of days after the murders, right? I don't think LE would have arrested them that quickly if they didn't have a ton of evidence to support it.