WI - ICE seeks help to ID youth in photos #2 - Identified

[believe09]

OK-you know what? Let's stop this. A recap for those of you who missed the original thread:

A commenter on the MSNBC story linked an imageshack of screen grabs from the video that ICE took their photos from. The screen grabs showed a sexual assault of a very young girl. The boy was assaulting her. Neither looked like they were in distress, as much as you could tell from blurred images. Sleuth was kind enough to grab non explicit images which did a better job showing the features of the boy and the basement.

Admin here determined that any non LE released images crossed a line into reproducing child *advertiser censored* here on WS, in spite of it being well intentioned. So the thread was killed and the images will be removed.

No one has to pretned they didnt see it, and no one has to not talk about it. We cant have the non LE images on the site.

 

[BD1]

He didn't "disseminate" anything embedded... he didn't upload the video.


All he did was post screenshots which he BLURRED, so that we could see his face better, the basement, their clothes, etc.

You know, things to better ID the kid and the location.
But I guess we don't want to do that.

I get what you are saying. But it isn't that person's job. It's LE's job to decide how to get info out to the people so they can help. They decided, in their wisdom, to not post those stills that included the little girl. For all we know, the person who posted those stills really gets a kick out of futher vicitimizing this little girl. OR, alternatively, that person really would like to help and is misguided about how to do so. It verges on vigilante, AND makes it clear that what people are viewing is child *advertiser censored*. On an msm site, no less.

The best way that person could have helped, if they truly want to help, is probably to report to LE (which they may have) where exactly they came across that video to help track it's origins. Period.

 

[Gracelin]

Thanks believe for the recap..I missed the end of the last thread..

 

[believe09]

I want to jump out on a limb, lol, and say we have a number of sleuthers who have killed themselves on this case. The thread is coming back because of the work you did.

 

[Gardenlady]

The snark is really killing this thread. Can everyone just let it go and start fresh?

 

[Sleuthsayers]

I get what you are saying. But it isn't that person's job. It's LE's job to decide how to get info out to the people so they can help. They decided, in their wisdom, to not post those stills that included the little girl. For all we know, the person who posted those stills really gets a kick out of futher vicitimizing this little girl. OR, alternatively, that person really would like to help and is misguided about how to do so. It verges on vigilante, AND makes it clear that what people are viewing is child *advertiser censored*. On an msm site, no less.

The best way that person could have helped, if they truly want to help, is probably to report to LE (which they may have) where exactly they came across that video to help track it's origins. Period.

Well I disagree.

It was because of those screenshots that I was able to identify certain things in the room and about the kids themselves that helped me find a potential match for the boy.

I don't know if it will turn out to actually be him, but if it does, it is 100% due to those screenshots.

The person didn't have to blur them at all. If they wanted to they could have kept it all to themselves and shared it with their friends and online *advertiser censored* traders and never put himself on the line to help.
But he did put himself on the line to help, and someone on here thought he should be punished for that.
In a perfect world these things wouldn't exist. But we don't live in a perfect world and we are not hall monitors who need to REPORT every thing that is technically illegal. Yes it was illegal and maybe not ideal but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

And another thing...LE isn't "God". They are flawed human beings just like us. They don't make the right call everytime and they don't always have good intentions. So honestly someone in LE watching the video isn't somehow morally superior to any of us watching it for the purpose of IDing the kids.

Again, not everything that is illegal is immoral and not everything that is immoral is illegal.

When slavery was legal would we have a slave just because "LE" said we could? No.
Would we do the right thing and help free slaves even though it was illegal and actually considered "theft of property?" Yes.

Sometimes we have to do the right thing even if its illegal.
I personally didn't have the courage to find the video and watch it and upload illegal photos but I sure respect the person who did.

I've only seen blurred pics and I woke up in the middle of a terrible nightmare today because of it. I can't imagine what he might be going through having actually seen the video.


And I'm rambling pointlessly now...

 

[believe09]

More than most, I understand this tension. This is surreal if you have never dealt with it before. It's like you have jumped off of a cliff into some kind of dark dank uglieness. You cant unsee the images and you realize it is one thing to talk about it and speculate-it is another thing to see it. Especially since, at least on screen, no one is holding a gun to everyone's head.

 

[believe09]

Sleuth, if you found this boy, thank you. ETA: If you can or if you are told, please let us know.

 

[manlet]

I knew there was child prostitution in America but never realized it was this huge. Disturbing in so many ways but I am so glad they are cracking down on it and putting these sickos away for life. It is unbelievable how many busts have happened recently. Google shows all sorts of links for busts if anyone is interested.

*i apologize if this is a bit off topic*
It's a multi-billion dollar industry, and what bothers me the most is that the sickos who are often being put away are usually not the ring leaders, they're just the middle men who are being paid off to kidnap/abduct/snatch up kids and throw them into different pedophile sex rings... while the real people at the top of these rings who're involved (politicians, military officials, celebrity figures, ex-presidents, dead presidents, congress members, court judges, rich wealthy men, etc.) easily get away with their sick desires for different films to be made. If you really want to dig into a mind fu*k read about the Johnny Gosch case, or the Cathy O'brien case. Those cases both opened up a can of worms and still haunt me since reading about them years ago.

 

[Lava]

Well I disagree.

It was because of those screenshots that I was able to identify certain things in the room and about the kids themselves that helped me find a potential match for the boy.

I don't know if it will turn out to actually be him, but if it does, it is 100% due to those screenshots.

The person didn't have to blur them at all. If they wanted to they could have kept it all to themselves and shared it with their friends and online *advertiser censored* traders and never put himself on the line to help.
But he did put himself on the line to help, and someone on here thought he should be punished for that.
In a perfect world these things wouldn't exist. But we don't live in a perfect world and we are not hall monitors who need to REPORT every thing that is technically illegal. Yes it was illegal and maybe not ideal but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

And another thing...LE isn't "God". They are flawed human beings just like us. They don't make the right call everytime and they don't always have good intentions. So honestly someone in LE watching the video isn't somehow morally superior to any of us watching it for the purpose of IDing the kids.

Again, not everything that is illegal is immoral and not everything that is immoral is illegal.

When slavery was legal would we have a slave just because "LE" said we could? No.
Would we do the right thing and help free slaves even though it was illegal and actually considered "theft of property?" Yes.

Sometimes we have to do the right thing even if its illegal.
I personally didn't have the courage to find the video and watch it and upload illegal photos but I sure respect the person who did.

I've only seen blurred pics and I woke up in the middle of a terrible nightmare today because of it. I can't imagine what he might be going through having actually seen the video.


And I'm rambling pointlessly now...

BBM - You are completely wrong. Child *advertiser censored* NEEDS to be reported, which is what I did - it is up to LE to decide who needs to be punished. I live in Florida, and in Florida EVERYONE is a mandatory reporter of child abuse, and I take that to also include child *advertiser censored* - and at the very least I will not take any chances that it hasn't been reported or that I am somehow breaking the law.

How anyone can advocate not reporting child *advertiser censored* on a board dedicated to helping protect children of abuse, full of members who were victims themselves, is beyond me.

 

[SyraKelly]

I think we need to start fresh-What does ICE want from us?What has ICE said about this boy & their reasons for wanting him found?What can we learn from the photos to help them reach an ending in helping bring these children to safety?I think we need to go back to the very first story that tells us all the above!!
This is what I remember"
They said the boy may be in danger & could not be in a positon to ask for help?
There are other children in danger here & could be saved
There is at least one adult they are looking for
The photos are in a basement
The photos are at least 18-24 months old
The boy is either from Minn or WI & still may or may not still be in area
The boy is wearing Minn t-shirt that was put out in 2010
Is the boy a missing child?They say they know enough about him-whatever that means??
Please feel free to add-I am just trying to help!!

I have seen the stills-but I won't talk about them b/c I have a very different opinion of them from people here.
I do think the boy needs to be found PRONTO!!

 

[Anon51]

Hello,

I started the thread on /x/ (a 4chan board that is about the paranormal, X as in X-Files, not as in X-rated *advertiser censored*) and we've figured out this much, using the two photos released.

0. While lots of people think 4chan is full of CP, it's not people from 4chan that post it. Anyone can post on a board. CP is and always has been illegal on our boards, and when it gets posted, it gets deleted very quickly and the posters banned. People that post it want to give 4chan a bad name for various reasons. Basically, another site, AnonTalk, is full of literal pedos, and they were spamming our site, so the owner blocked them, so they respammed with CP. I'm telling you this so you understand we are on your side. Some people in the thread did recognize it as a post from back in 2010 that was quickly deleted.

1. The "lathe" is not a lathe. It's a cabinet with glass windows and handles. There is a box next to it and some sort of machine on top. It could be a wireless router, we don't know. We zoomed in and found that the thing next to it on the left that looks round is just an open cardboard box. Focusing on the "lathe" is futile, as those items can be found anywhere.

2. The Taylor Druyor lead is highly plausible as the fact that the futon cover doesn't match isn't an issue. For all we know, it's a reversible futon cover, or they just got a new futon cover. Futon covers are replaceable.

3. In the shots, it looked like someone else was holding the camera. In *advertiser censored* there is "gonzo" *advertiser censored*, where one of the people in the shot is taking the video. This is not a case in which that could be true. His arms are frankly not long enough, and the shots change perspective multiple times in the video stills without him moving his arms. Therefore, we believe there must have been someone else involved. Most likely an adult, but even if it's another minor, it's not good.

4. Regardless of whether or not he's a victim or the culprit, the identity of the girl is extremely important. By identifying him, we stop this from happening (either out of his own volition or by removing him from that circumstance) and can get the kids the help they need.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I am going to call ICE myself - today - to find out if it is legal to sleuth those blurred pictures posted on imageshack. I will supply them with where the public was directed to look on that main stream news site and they can then determine themselves if we're within our legal realm to view & post safe screen caps of those pictures. I can't call them until my children are out of the house, so could take time bc we're at the beach so everyone's in & out. I'll note the time, date & whom I speak with when I post, unless a mod would like me to pm them prior or maybe make that call themselves.

There is a reason ICE released the pictures that they did. It is my understanding they believe this kid is a victim no matter how bad the pictures/video make him appear. They have far more info than we do. It's also my belief that people involved in kiddie *advertiser censored* could have a certain agenda to draw the guilt away from themselves and place blame on the victim, whom could also very well end up being this kid that is obviously victimizing another very young victim. These perps could now use the legal argument that hey they ran across this video, or these stills, and they saw a kid being victimized so they watched it to try to identify the perp. All they'd have to do is replace their hd, router and/or connection change. They could say it was contained in a torrent of free book downloads or whatever thanks to Gutenberg. They could say they came across it on 4chan, and for as many bad *advertiser censored* crap that can be on 4chan they are incredibly intelligent in their other threads besides /b/. The hackers there have uncovered alot. Those pictures weren't put out for us to decide who the victim is - they're there to identify the teen boy. ICE didn't ask joe public to identify the room, they asked to identify the boy. Maybe he's a perp, maybe he's not - but it's most definitely not for us to decide without proper go-ahead and/or clearance from the proper authorities. Again, they have far more info than we do.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Anon51, welcome to Websleuths & very glad you joined! Thank you!

 

[Lava]

I am going to call ICE myself - today - to find out if it is legal to sleuth those blurred pictures posted on imageshack. I will supply them with where the public was directed to look on that main stream news site and they can then determine themselves if we're within our legal realm to view & post safe screen caps of those pictures. I can't call them until my children are out of the house, so could take time bc we're at the beach so everyone's in & out. I'll note the time, date & whom I speak with when I post, unless a mod would like me to pm them prior or maybe make that call themselves.

There is a reason ICE released the pictures that they did. It is my understanding they believe this kid is a victim no matter how bad the pictures/video make him appear. They have far more info than we do. It's also my belief that people involved in kiddie *advertiser censored* could have a certain agenda to draw the guilt away from themselves and place blame on the victim, whom could also very well end up being this kid that is obviously victimizing another very young victim. These perps could now use the legal argument that hey they ran across this video, or these stills, and they saw a kid being victimized so they watched it to try to identify the perp. All they'd have to do is replace their hd, router and/or connection change. They could say it was contained in a torrent of free book downloads or whatever thanks to Gutenberg. They could say they came across it on 4chan, and for as many bad *advertiser censored* crap that can be on 4chan they are incredibly intelligent in their other threads besides /b/. The hackers there have uncovered alot. Those pictures weren't put out for us to decide who the victim is - they're there to identify the teen boy. ICE didn't ask joe public to identify the room, they asked to identify the boy. Maybe he's a perp, maybe he's not - but it's most definitely not for us to decide without proper go-ahead and/or clearance from the proper authorities. Again, they have far more info than we do.

I think calling ICE is a good idea. However, IMO, they are clearly child *advertiser censored* and I would leave that investigation up to LE. A blurred face does not make it not child *advertiser censored*. If they had been cropped out, with just the background and the boys face (like the LE released photos) that would be different.

 

[Sleuthsayers]

Hello,

I started the thread on /x/ (a 4chan board that is about the paranormal, X as in X-Files, not as in X-rated *advertiser censored*) and we've figured out this much, using the two photos released.

0. While lots of people think 4chan is full of CP, it's not people from 4chan that post it. Anyone can post on a board. CP is and always has been illegal on our boards, and when it gets posted, it gets deleted very quickly and the posters banned. People that post it want to give 4chan a bad name for various reasons. Basically, another site, AnonTalk, is full of literal pedos, and they were spamming our site, so the owner blocked them, so they respammed with CP. I'm telling you this so you understand we are on your side. Some people in the thread did recognize it as a post from back in 2010 that was quickly deleted.

1. The "lathe" is not a lathe. It's a cabinet with glass windows and handles. There is a box next to it and some sort of machine on top. It could be a wireless router, we don't know. We zoomed in and found that the thing next to it on the left that looks round is just an open cardboard box. Focusing on the "lathe" is futile, as those items can be found anywhere.

2. The Taylor Druyor lead is highly plausible as the fact that the futon cover doesn't match isn't an issue. For all we know, it's a reversible futon cover, or they just got a new futon cover. Futon covers are replaceable.

3. In the shots, it looked like someone else was holding the camera. In *advertiser censored* there is "gonzo" *advertiser censored*, where one of the people in the shot is taking the video. This is not a case in which that could be true. His arms are frankly not long enough, and the shots change perspective multiple times in the video stills without him moving his arms. Therefore, we believe there must have been someone else involved. Most likely an adult, but even if it's another minor, it's not good.

4. Regardless of whether or not he's a victim or the culprit, the identity of the girl is extremely important. By identifying him, we stop this from happening (either out of his own volition or by removing him from that circumstance) and can get the kids the help they need.

You said you were basing this on the 2 pics, but then go on to talk about the multiple stills someone else uploaded. Did you just use the 2 pics from LE, or did you also use the stills or did you see the entire video?

Because...
2. But nothing else in the basement matches either... so...?
3. No one else is holding the camera, it is a webcam attached to or actually factory installed in, the laptop he's using. Stills are just that, stills, they aren't even in sequence on that site. Just because you don't see him moving the camera every time doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means he didn't capture a still for every second of the video. There are in fact multiple stills where he is in fact reaching forward to type or adjust the laptop/camera. So again I'm not sure what you're basing this on.

 

[Sleuthsayers]

However that post was useful to me in 1 way...

I am now finally... *finally* able to make my brain see a cabinet there.

That was driving me crazy. I had a feeling it might be glass and not reflective metal because the window also sometimes looks like metal to me but I know rationally that it is a typical basement window.
So I figured it might be glass and others have said cabinet but my brain refused to process it.

This is great, now I can spend more hours staring at the cabinet trying to figure out whats in it! lol
But seriously, thanks for saying "glass windows and handles" that is what did it, because I had been seeing the handles but still wasn't able to see it.

Thanks again.

 

[Gracelin]

Is anyone willing to discuss post # 21 of this thread??

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/14901/0/
Adrian Dunne

4 chan was the site I lost my memory on. So glad I found it

Welcome Anon51

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I think calling ICE is a good idea. However, IMO, they are clearly child *advertiser censored* and I would leave that investigation up to LE. A blurred face does not make it not child *advertiser censored*. If they had been cropped out, with just the background and the boys face (like the LE released photos) that would be different.

I agree but I'm just trying to help out bc the bickering is crazy. I just think with knowing the legalities of it all is important before moving forward in regards to those pictures for those that want to sleuth it, ya know? I've been a very proud member here for awhile, and lurked for years prior, so I wouldn't want to see any kind of bad liability sought.

 

[believe09]

Hi, Anon!! Welcome to Websleuths. I appreciate your input for sure. And the explanation of 4chan. Do you guys have the actual video at 4chan as Mr Nemo (???) alluded to on the MSNBC comment 196.1?

I dont know if you are actually a representative of 4chan, of course, no offense to you. But if you are, it would help because to me, there doesnt appear to be anyone else involved in the production of the screengrabs we saw.