AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #12

[MsBetsy]

I think the two shots heard were fired at the open doorway where the sound would carry to the neighbors. Anything that happened inside would likely not be heard, even more gunshots.

I'm not sure about this. I have heard gunshots that were inside a house and it was extremely loud. So loud that I thought it was someone outside hunting and I thought they were pretty close. It turns out the house was not close at all. Probably twice the distance than the neighbors was in this case. I heard six shots altogether, and at least two were shot in a staircase, with additional walls that would absorb the sound. Since the shots were mistaken for a hunter I am thinking maybe it was the same type of gun. In my opinion it would still be heard just as easily. That's why I would have to think that if there were more gunshots it would have to come from a different gun.

 

[ANNELEIGH]

All Catholic churches have Sunday school classes. It's required for kids to make their First Communion and later get Confirmed.

I attended Catholic school & church my entire life, and we never had "Sunday School Classes" in our Catholic church. However, there were CCD classes held for children who attended Public School, and wanted to make their First Communion.

 

[minnphatts]

I hate to make anyone's head explode, but...I have at least two chair cushions right now that are hanging on by one tie. The second tie is still attached to the chair, but it detached from the cushion itself. With use, ties often become detached from the cushion and remain tied to the chair. Eventually, I sew them back on. But it sometimes takes me months to find the motivation to do it.

I have no opinion on what's going on with this chair, but them's the facts on chair cushions and ties in my opinion!

I'm probably the primary offender when it comes to the over analysis of the seat cushions. We don't have much to go on, so I've focused on something tangible. Like I said earlier I'm an avid fly fisherman and tie many different knots and flies, and something seemed off to me when further analyzing the chair. I'll apologize in advance, because here's some further testing (see attached file). You'll notice in the WCCO/CNN video that there's (1) tag end of rope remaining in the rear left and (2) dangling from the rear right.

I originally used Occam's razor (big surprise) to discount these ties as simply the remnants of standard cushions. Upon further review, at a minimum they likely didn't come from a standard cushions where two ties per corner are individually sewn in (like the blue cushion my experiment image). With a standard cushion, if you simply cut the ties, you'd be left with (4) tag ends.

You'll also notice in my second screenshot from the video that you can see the top of the rope (arrow pointed to the white area on top of seat) which appears to not be oriented to the outside (left) spindle, but possibly connected one spindle inside to the right (see blue circle). Aren't cushions usually tied to both outside corner spindles?

It's possible that this is a misinterpretation of the video evidence, or that a single tie cushion has been removed/cut in a unique way by LE, or that the Closs family had something else tied to this chair in an atypical manor. But IMO this evidence can't be explained away as easily as I originally thought.
MOO

 

[katydid23]

It's a thought but they murdered her parents then kidnapped her away from her freedom so I don't think they care too much about her happiness. That's just my opinion though.

Crazy,delusional criminals can justify a lot of things in their sick minds. This may have been someone who watched her, saw her with her family, and decided in their twisted mind that they would 'save' her from her overprotective, controlling family. Or any made up excuse like that. JMO

 

[Lillymac]

We don't actually know if LE knows whether Jayme was in the home during the call. What they said was that they believe she was there during the shooting, and that something on the call was part of why they thought that. It does seem likely but it's still speculation at this point.

Likewise, yes they said they have DC's phone but they haven't said where it was found.



As I recall early in the threads, it was only reported that DC was found farther back of the house. We don't know which room. As far as I know, bathroom was just someone's speculation of where a person might try to barricade themselves.

I do not recall seeing a location of mom at all. Only James. I wondered where that came from. As a side note I have the worst cell reception in my bathroom than any room in my house.

 

[BRRI]

I attended Catholic school & church my entire life, and we never had "Sunday School Classes" in our Catholic church. However, there were CCD classes held for children who attended Public School, and wanted to make their First Communion.

Same

 

[Angleterre]

They did not confirm that they removed a mattress, but he did say it is normal procedure and helpful to have a fresh pair of eyes, or something like that, reexamine the crime scene. They are doing everything they can, imo.

Re the fresh pair of eyes comment
If I may just pick up on that and explore it further ....

I’m a SIO (Senior Investigating Officer so serious Crime / murder etc , I would be in charge of the investigation).
We have a protocol in place that is documented policy whereby dependent upon the category of the Murder investigation ( CAT A,B or C with A being one like this ) there is a period of time after the investigation commenced whereby if there are no suspects / or no persons yet arrested, the Policy book ( a detailed log made by the SIO of every line of enquiry considered, followed up on or discounted and the justification behind each one ) is reviewed by another SIO. This is usually a 72 hour review to ensure that all that can be done is being done . If we enter week 2,3,4 and are still
not in a position to identify a suspect and / or arrest a person of interest, then a policy decision is made that another SIO will do an investigative review ( fresh pair of eyes to go back to the beginning and look at all the evidence available and all the witnesses and ensure that nothing is missed and no stone unturned). The SIO can ask for another to review the investigation st any time and New leads can / often do arise as a result because with the best will in the world, an investigation of this magnitude with 1400 lines of enquiry within the first few days to go through with a fine tooth comb , is mentally challenging and things can be missed. So effectively it is a safety net. I have done reviews on other SIO investigations and likewise have asked for reviews to be done on mine . It’s a healthy practice as no one person holds the answers and it’s a team approach. You can never be scared to speak up and say I need help with this one or to ask if someone can review the investigation in case you have inadvertently ‘missed’ something. After all, we are only human .

So I just wanted to explain a bit more as to why more items may have been removed from the Closs family home on a second sweep . The forensic strategy would have been reviewed and decisions taken to go back and revisit the scene, either as a result of a line of enquiry that has arisen during the investigation or because you don’t feel that you have all the pieces and need a further look .
Everything and I mean everything that is thought of and considered is written in the policy book, and the justification and decision making behind either following that line of enquiry or dismissing it , must be written against each.
It’s a time consuming practice and you can have a Policy book a week as the investigation progresses BUT it ensures transparency and integrity of the case and if in the event it’s not initially solved and a person put before a court of law, then it enables another SIO many years down the line ( maybe a cold case review) to pick up and run with the investigation, knowing what has been done previously. I have personal experience of this with a case that I had to ‘shelve’ due to lack of evidence (although I knew who was responsible but at that time I didn’t possess enough evidence to go forth and prosecute in 2004, only for something to happen in 2015 and the investigation was blown wide open again and I was contacted to request the filed location of all the Policy books . The offender was convicted and received a 21 year prison sentence.

Sorry to ramble but I just thought it may be helpful to know the workings that happen behind the scenes which lead to further actions being taken as has happened here with the scene of the crime being forensically reviewed .

By the way, I refer to the process of the U.K. not the USA which is probably a little different although the principles behind it will be the same .

 

[PommyMommy]

I've thought about this and if I was home with my daughter, and heard a loud noise followed by gunshots, I would go for my daughter and run to a back exit. I don't believe I would run to where the sound of gunshots came from. That's why I believe she was found later according to the 911 transcript in the back of the house or possibly downstairs. 911 call traced to phone of missing Wisconsin girl's mother, authorities say - CNN
IMO

I don't quite follow. I didn't mean to imply that she ran toward the gunshots. When I said, "turned and ran," what I meant was that she was in view of the shooter when her husband was shot, and the shooter fired as she ran away from the gunfire. My main point being, the second shot may not have hit anybody. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

I KNOW a 12ga shot inside a home will be so much more quiet than anyone could ever think unless they have heard it for themselves. it sounds like a .22 or less.

As I stated, I have heard shots come from inside a house. It was the type of gun used by hunters. Extremely loud. When I heard them, I never would have guessed all six shots were fired inside. There was even an echo.

 

[BRRI]

These people have always been around, nothing has changed in that regard.

The world is no more dangerous than it was in the past, we are simply more in tune with its realities.

“When I was a kid, we used to play outside and we didn’t have to worry about predators.”

Nope.

You just weren’t aware of them.

I mostly agree, though I think the Internet has amplified predator’s desires, given them ideas, connected them to people like themselves, and opened lines of communication that weren’t there.

 

[MassGuy]

I mostly agree, though I think the Internet has amplified predator’s desires, given them ideas, connected them to people like themselves, and opened lines of communication that weren’t there.

Absolutely. It’s changed the game for them. It’s brought predators and victims together, and simplified the process of victimization.

 

[Gardener1850]

I hope this hasn't been rehashed too much but I am trying to organize my thoughts on the timeline.

Sunday afternoon: Denise and Jayme attend Jayme's cousins birthday party (I haven't seen mention if it is the ones in Barron or not), James does not attend

Denise and Jayme arrive home

~~12:31 Neighbor to the west hears two gunshots
12:53:26 911 call, dispatch reports yelling in the background
12:54:13 Call is ended
Dispatch attempts to call back and gets Denise's voicemail message. Dispatch then tries landline and it is “disconnected”
12:56:01 Three officers are dispatched to Closs house from the Sheriff's office
1:00:29 Officers report they have arrived on scene
1:03 Officer mistakes scene for suicide attempt (morbidly due to location of James's injuries I'm guessing)
1:05 Officer reports one male down multiple rounds fired
1:08 Officers begin to search house
1:11 Officers find Denise

@MsBetsy proposed that neighbor may have mistaken 12:38 for 12:58 on the clock (which being seven minutes fast translates to 12:31 and 12:51 for the rest of us). If this is the case, the timeline to me makes a lot more sense.

I also had the same immediate thought as @Gardener1850 when law enforcement asked for vehicles in the area from 12:30 to 1:30. That range doesn't make sense if the vehicles were already on scene on 12:31.

If the shots were at 12:51, that means Denise calls 911 about two minutes later and and the perp/perps are only in the house for less than 9 minutes.

Edit: Sorry MsBetsy, I had you as WsBetsy!

Very interesting the different views on the press conference. I still have yet to watch it, trying to catch up on so many posts here.

Thank you for laying the timeline out. Coming back to this fresh this morning and I'm still thinking along same line of thought as you thesnowflakesparkles. It seems that LE has a clear timeline and that their timeline may not include the neighbors reported time of hearing gunshots. I feel like they would have made the requested time range for when anyone saw anything as broader otherwise. JMO.

 

[doublestop]

Catholic churches no longer call it CCD, they call it CRE (Catholic Religious Education, I think)...but at my house we called it Sunday School, because it's still religious education for kids on a Sunday or Wednesday, and it was easier than having to explain to friends what CRE was. So I think "all Catholic churches have Sunday School" is correct, regardless of what you call it.

 

[katydid23]

I agree. They spoke as if Jayme has agency and...some of the power. It spoke volumes to me.

There are several cases from the past, where young girls were abducted and held hostage for a long time. Eventually, slowly, they were given some level of 'freedom.' Able to walk about the locked home or go out in public, but with their captor hovering over them.

During this time, they get brainwashed and their minds are literally taken over. Elizabeth Smart denied she was 'Elizabeth Smart' when the policeman first asked her. She denied it because she was so emotionally/psychologically abused and confused.

I think the dog and her fave StarBucks drink and her memories with her family were used to try and reawaken her, to inspire her,to reassure her, IF she had any kind of opportunities ahead to escape. JMO

 

[zecats]

Just jumping off your post because the BBM caused me a new thought in regards the bathroom rumor from Radar Online. Many of us have been assuming if she was really found in the bathroom that Denise barricaded herself in there. What if the perp "barricaded" her in there for some reason? Is that even possible? My bathroom doors all open inward with the lock on the inside but I have a large dresser right next to my bathroom door and if someone wanted to keep me from coming out they could slide that in front of the door (although I also have a window, but assuming for moment Denise's bathroom did not have one). I'm also thinking about the possible mattress removed on a new pass of the house. Many people are thinking mattress=sexual assault. My mind went there for a moment too, but I don't think the FBI would miss fluids on a mattress
on their first inspection, would they? It would have lit up. But what else can a mattress be used for? Maybe for barricading someone into a room? If it was used in that way, I can see the FBI going back to get the mattress on another pass of the house hoping to find DNA (hair with a root or skin cells) from the person who moved it into place. IDK, I'm maybe I'm grasping at straws here. Are there any videos of this mattress being removed?

A floor plan of the house would be helpful in this scenario. Window? Direction door opens? Bathroom near a bedroom where access to mattress would be convenient? FWIW one of our bathroom doors now opens outward, since we remodeled to make the bathroom seem bigger and give more space there.

 

[oviedo]

I don't quite follow. I didn't mean to imply that she ran toward the gunshots. When I said, "turned and ran," what I meant was that she was in view of the shooter when her husband was shot, and the shooter fired as she ran away from the gunfire. My main point being, the second shot may not have hit anybody. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
MOO

I was just thinking they weren't together when the door was kicked in and he was shot - but if they were, you are right- she would turn and run as soon as that door was kicked in. I would. Poor Jayme she had to hear this happening IMO

 

[oviedo]

A floor plan of the house would be helpful in this scenario. Window? Direction door opens? Bathroom near a bedroom where access to mattress would be convenient? FWIW one of our bathroom doors now opens outward, since we remodeled to make the bathroom seem bigger and give more space there.

I posted a sample floor plan yesterday and others analyzed the vents to locate the bathroom and the kitchen. I don't know if their house layout is similar or not. Basically, the front door opened to the living room - bedroom(s) on the other side, kitchen/breakfast nook in the back, bathroom(s) and other bedroom in the back of the house with a staircase going down to the garage. I think it was the previous thread.

 

[JnRyan]

I can't believe I missed this case. Really strange. No obvious motive for killing the parents. And no obvious motive for abducting Jayme. If they were worried she was a witness they would have shot her as well. Why take her from the scene?

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Are there going to be any pressers today?

 

[MsBetsy]

I really don’t think it was a shotgun. There wouldn’t be a need for multiple rounds. That sounds most like a semi auto handgun IMO

Doesn't that sound different then the kind of gun a hunter would use? They said it sounded like the gunshots they were used to hearing. There were only two shots heard. Multiple means two or more. We don't know how many shots there were, but since the neighbors heard only two, that's all we have to go by. Unless another type of gun was used I don't know how they would not have heard any other shots. Or they fell fast asleep and after 15 minutes may not have heard anymore. Jmo