AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #19

[Intrigued25]

Al Ka said: ↑
There is a mortgage. In May 2017 there was also $13 K borrowed against the house by Denise (as per Realtor info in previous threads). The same month and year there was huge storm in that area too, so maybe loan was taken due to that.


Can one person borrow against a jointly owned property?
Was the property/mortgage in Denise's name only or both she and James?

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

Part of what I found interesting is when it was said that they can know all the cars in the county in 24 hours, so they know the cars in question are from outside the county. To me, this just adds to the idea that Jayme was probably not the target. The vehicles of anybody who might be in her extended circle would be known by now. The only reason I know of that can support the idea that Jayme was the target is that she was taken rather than just killed on the spot, but there are other viable explanations for that, not the least of which is DNA. There is no evidence of online activity that would suggest any other explanations. (Unlike the 16-year-old in Wisconsin who had an on-line relationship with a guy from Colorado, who then insisted on coming on getting her, for example.) It is possible that Jayme was the target, but I still don't see it as likely.

We have absolutely no evidence of any internal familial issues between Jayme and her parents, or between DC and JC. I think going that way is just going down a rabbit hole where there is nothing to find. By all accounts, they were a close-knit family.

"We have absolutely no evidence of" anything, except the murder of James and Denise Closs and the disappearance of Jayme Closs. So, nearly any theory is as good as another.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

It also seems wildly unlikely some random perp just happens to kick the door in, kill 2 people and take their child.

Agreed, but the potential motives are numerous, of course.

 

[SkipperKey3]

We don’t know, nobody knows, that she wasn’t dead on scene and taken because of evidence on her body. We know she was alive during call, but not on departure. MOO.

Agreed. Just because she was taken is not proof that she was the intended target (if there even was one) all along.

 

[Ari_]

Al Ka said: ↑
There is a mortgage. In May 2017 there was also $13 K borrowed against the house by Denise (as per Realtor info in previous threads). The same month and year there was huge storm in that area too, so maybe loan was taken due to that.


Can one person borrow against a jointly owned property?
Was the property/mortage in Denise's name only or both she and James?

If I'm not mistaken, yes, you can. But only if the joint owner agrees and signs to say they agree.

 

[SkipperKey3]

"We have absolutely no evidence of" anything, except the murder of James and Denise Closs and the disappearance of Jayme Closs. So, nearly any theory is as good as another.

I agree with you. From what little know, there are a wide variety of explanations that can at least partially fit the few facts we have. It is possible any or all of them were the target, or that there was no specific target at all. Motive could have been from a mis-intended slight, road rage, jealousy over something minor, or just somebody out for kicks. We just don't know. None of our theories can be categorically dismissed because we don't have enough facts. While I find some theories more plausible than others, I don't discount any of them as absolutely impossible.

 

[SkipperKey3]

It also seems wildly unlikely some random perp just happens to kick the door in, kill 2 people and take their child.

The problem is that no matter how you look at this case, something about it seems wildly unlikely, yet it happened.

 

[Ari_]

The problem is that no matter how you look at this case, something about it seems wildly unlikely, yet it happened.

Amen to that.

 

[stephlovescheese]

If, statistically, violent crime is down overall, what is the common thread to the randomness? Drugs? Mental illness? Both? Are all violent criminals “mentally ill”? Is PTSD considered a mental illness?

Most criminals suffer from childhood trauma. Does the abuse CAUSE mental illness or allow for the range of normal human emotion to escalate over time to a clinical level?

Any experts or students of psychology/human behavior out there who’d like to chime in?

e
All excellent points and questions! No single answer as trauma affects each individual differently.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

I agree with you. From what little know, there are a wide variety of explanations that can at least partially fit the few facts we have. It is possible any or all of them were the target, or that there was no specific target at all. Motive could have been from a mis-intended slight, road rage, jealousy over something minor, or just somebody out for kicks. We just don't know. None of our theories can be categorically dismissed because we don't have enough facts. While I find some theories more plausible than others, I don't discount any of them as absolutely impossible.

Possibilities, in regard to motive, are limitless right now. I'd be interested in hearing what a bookmaker had to say about the odds of the top possibilities, though. I sigh before writing this, because I realize how disgusting/unpalatable it is, but I mean this in the most positive way, in terms of solving crimes. Bookmakers exist to make money, period. I've always thought bookmakers would be valuable in helping LE weigh the possibilities in crimes such as the one involving the Closss'. It's wholly morbid, I acknowledge, but allowing a bookmaker to set odds on the motive behind such a crime, and to adjust those odds as the public weighs in -- with the risk of losing BIG MONEY, if the bookmaker is wrong in setting the odds -- would be an extra tool for LE, IMO.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

If you happen to have the right app, yes.

All women should have this app! IMO

"When the SOS is activated, your guardians will get your location, after which they will be able to see and hear everything that is happening in real-time via live streaming."

https://getbsafe.com/features/
MOO

TY for that info. I'll have to share with friends & family.

 

[RavenDoc]

I am woefully uninformed about this judgement that happened less than 10 years ago, so I do not know the nature of it other than it was against DC if I am interpreting it correctly.

However, even if it was settled, it would still fit into the wide range of possible motives that DancingMuse opened my mind to in this post:

AMBER ALERT - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #19

I am forgetting which thread, but it seemed an old debt probably not anything abnormal especially given the timeframe of the US recession and people having been out of work. It was definitely mulled over, but being a judgement it’s typically by a bank or credit card. Nothing out of the ordinary MOO.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

deleted duplicate post

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

Link?!

Hi JJ, I'm not aware of a drug bust but the jail roster showed a meth related arrest of a person and the address given under the court case was .04 mi away form the Closs home. Since LE hasn't stated there is a connection I can't give the persons name.

 

[1987]

on the topic of thinking about the hunting season being so near there, could someone have had a dispute over a property line. I know here where I am this can become a issue and fast and people that are easy going people suddenly get hot headed. people that own property know where their line is and most respect that, but leases not so much, here a hunter lease is a bundle of issues, they either don't know where property lines are or don't care. I am easy going but I have been known to just cut a tree down if I find a deer stand in it that doesn't belong there on my property and only latter thought well that was real smart, just go and make someone mad that is sure to have a firearm and sure to know who cut the dang tree down and destroyed their stand.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

Hi JJ, I'm not aware of a drug bust but the jail roster showed a meth related arrest of a person and the address given under the court case was .04 mi away form the Closs home. Since LE hasn't stated there is a connection I can't give the persons name.

And that arrest could be for as little as a personal pipe or trace amount in a small baggy.

 

[JaneEyre]

I thought I was the only person who found this really odd.
There is something about it that rubs me the wrong way.
Unless, she knew her holiday work hours wouldn't permit her to attend any family Christmas activities.
That could very well be the case.
I know when I was a nurse, I often traded vacation days with women who had young children.
Mine were old enough to understand that Christmas would be "delayed" a week or a few days.
We still always had our family Christmas morning activities together, but we couldn't always make the BIG family gathering.
Moo

This is not odd to me. As a kid, I remember all children getting some kind of small gift - party favors. And even now as an adult who crafts, my mom, my sister, or I often end up bringing small gifts for everyone at family get togethers. Even among adults, when we get together with just “us girls” for a fall festival every year I bring pocket gifts. This year it was little sun catchers.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

on the topic of thinking about the hunting season being so near there, could someone have had a dispute over a property line. I know here where I am this can become a issue and fast and people that are easy going people suddenly get hot headed. people that own property know where their line is and most respect that, but leases not so much, here a hunter lease is a bundle of issues, they either don't know where property lines are or don't care. I am easy going but I have been known to just cut a tree down if I find a deer stand in it that doesn't belong there on my property and only latter thought well that was real smart, just go and make someone mad that is sure to have a firearm and sure to know who cut the dang tree down and destroyed their stand.

Anything is possible, and I've seen property-line disputes go sideways, but it'd be a stretch, imo, for that to be the motive in this case, seeing as Jayme, evidently, was taken by the perp(s). Just doesn't compute w/ a snap over property lines.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

And that arrest could be for as little as a personal pipe or trace amount in a small baggy.

Actually there were several charges. If I recall correctly they were felony level.
ETA along with a PV from previous case.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

This is not odd to me. As a kid, I remember all children getting some kind of small gift - party favors. And even now as an adult who crafts, my mom, my sister, or I often end up bringing small gifts for everyone at family get togethers. Even among adults, when we get together with just “us girls” for a fall festival every year I bring pocket gifts. This year it was little sun catchers.

Agreed -- why is this odd? Lots of parents now give gifts to those who attend their kids' parties. It's commonplace. Nothing weird about it in the least.