AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #19

[SharonNeedles]

Let's say that someone w/ a vested interest in moving drugs had become threatened, in their opinion, by someone in the Closs family. And w/ that being the case, someone was sent to the Closs home to eliminate the problem. That scenario has been floated. I reject that notion, as were this a directed "hit," I find it hard to imagine a perp tasked w/ such a direct assignment actually leaving the home w/ a family member. That's a tough scenario to bridge, unless the perp (s) was simply a sex fiend w/ nasty plans ahead. And such a perp(s) would be a BIG problem for the brains behind the assignment; i.e. targeted for death. So, I don't see this as a hit, at all. Could be a drug dealer who felt threatened, in some way, by the Closs', but just can't see it as an assigned hit. If it was a drug dealer, it was a personal reaction -- some small-time number lashing out. And in most any scenario I see, Jayme is just collateral damage -- someone taken along for the sexual whims of whatever [w]ussy took her.

The fact remains the James and Denise are dead because the assailant wanted them dead. When I ask myself why somebody could possibly want them dead the plausible scenarios are limited.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

And in an organized drug distribution network that would indeed be true. The people upstream would be more organized, better financed and situationally aware enough to clean up loose ends.

But when you’re talking about home grown meth production... I mean, these people steal anhydrous ammonia and Sudafed then sometimes blow themselves up trying to cook it. But they likely didn’t even kill the real snitch, I doubt the Closs family was in a position to know anything. I think in this case the real snitch is the weakest link right now.

Good stuff, Sharon. But even in Mom and Pop shops, I think the little brains behind the operation realize that the finger-pointer is the real threat at this point, and if the snitch (if that is the case) is not already muck in a 50-gallon drum, I'd be flabbergasted.

 

[Lillymac]

What kind of page is it? Is it the public records lookup?
You can always private message an admin to be sure.

Yes, it is a public records look up that you pay for. I did pm a mod and got no reply...two weeks ago.

 

[Amonet]

I have an entire notebook full of notes taken from serial killing cases and interviews with known serial killers... backgrounds, case similarities, victimology, psychology, geography, you name it. The only thing I find useful in this case with respect to what I have learned about serial killers is the possibility that this was a random crime. If that is the case here, and I'm not saying it is , the only thing a serial killer case can teach us about the Closs case is that the probability of it being solved is very low simply because there is nothing to connect the suspect(s) to the victims.

JMO

On the other hand, there might be other crimes committed by the same perp, even if they could be years apart.

Whatever has driven this person to commit this crime... Is this the first time they've felt such a drive? Has the drive disappeared with the committing of the crime, or has it heightened the drive? Will the drive re-appear at some point when the excitement of this has worn off and life has got dull and unsatisfying again?

 

[SharonNeedles]

Good stuff, Sharon. But even in Mom and Pop shops, I think the little brains behind the operation realize that the finger-pointer is the real threat at this point, and if the snitch (if that is the case) is not already muck in a 50-gallon drum, I'd be flabbergasted.

To be fair, my theory is coming from a real life meth operation I was too close to 15 years ago. When the couple cooking the meth and a couple of their associates got busted there were others worried about being implicated. They had no idea who the tipster was (nor do I) but the question was “who could have possibly known?” This didn’t end in murder thank goodness because realistically I was one of those people who could have possibly known.

 

[gipsypup]

After reading many posts and going on what little information we have from LE , I am leaning towards two possible scenarios. I think the Mark Furhman theory is very interesting. Denise being the target could explain why the perp(s) didn't kill Jayme . Although the perp(s) may have killed Denise (& James) in a rage, or for whatever reason , they may have had some type of connection or interaction with Jayme in the past and just couldn't kill her so they took her?
Or the theory I keep going back to is did Jayme possibly have a boyfriend the parents disapproved of or a secret boyfriend that Jayme may have fled with that night after a big argument that led to the killings? Although Jayme was frightened, horrified , and in shock seeing her parents killed the "boyfriend" made her leave with him and they are now hiding? MOO.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

It also seems wildly unlikely some random perp just happens to kick the door in, kill 2 people and take their child.

Does it also seem wildly unlikely that random strangers would kick in the front door of a home in the middle of the night and torture a 7 year old ?
7-year-old boy held under water, burned during home invasion

Or beat the living crap out of a 5 year old ?
Family, including 5-year-old child, beaten in 'targeted' home invasion

 

[bizzle2]

I feel you, Carbuff. I went around and around with that for a long time, and never did land on a reasonable explanation. The very first thing LE saw when they arrived at the house was the front door kicked in and an adult male lying on the ground. No gun visible anywhere. How the heck does that scream suicide to seasoned law officers ?

IMO it was two factors:
1. Suicides are far more common than homicides. Was just their first instinct upon seeing the situation.
2. My guess is that they saw a relatively close-range gunshot would to the head.

Sometimes the gun can fall underneath the person after they commit suicide.

I'm sure they quickly realized it wasn't a suicide when the couldn't find a gun, but the two initial factors I mentioned above likely played a role in their initial diagnosis of suicide. I'd add that it was only one of the three officers that said suicide initially, so it could have just been a matter of vantage point.

 

[Cardinal47]

Anybody that knew anything at all would never enter and leave a scene like this!

Guns and kicking in the door make noise something a professional would never do! Silencers and quiet.

They would never take a 13 year old kid no way!

If this is what did happen it's a couple of meth heads crazy high on drugs with not a lick of sense but lucky as hell!

 

[Gardener1850]

I feel you, Carbuff. I went around and around with that for a long time, and never did land on a reasonable explanation. The very first thing LE saw when they arrived at the house was the front door kicked in and an adult male lying on the ground. No gun visible anywhere. How the heck does that scream suicide to seasoned law officers ?

Perhaps they have never seen a murder before but they have seen a suicide victim? There have only been 4 killings (not all murders) in the past 10 years in Barron County according to the Sheriff (BBM):

In the past decade, there have been a total of four killings in Barron County, according to the sheriff. Barron is the kind of town where screen doors are left unlatched in summer; in winter, few lock their front doors. Those days are over, several residents said.

Mystery in a Small Town: A Quiet Couple Shot Dead, Their Daughter Missing

3 of those 4 deaths are a family who died as a result of murder-suicide (a domestic violence situation). That's 2 prior events where LE may have seen violent death in the past decade. I think we should let those numbers sink in when we think about "seasoned law officers". There is a big difference between a rural county police force and a big city one where murder may be a weekly occurrence. An officer in Barron County could have been on the force for 10 years and never in his life been the first on the scene of a murder, let alone a double murder and abduction. It was a momentary reaction to radio back "possible suicide" in order to get additional help on scene, but it was quickly updated when they got closer and saw more of the scene and realized it wasn't a suicide at all. JMO.

I do also think the initial reaction could indicate something about the location of a gunshot wound but since I read the above about how rare murder is in this area I have been thinking this was not a county with officers who had seen a lot of violent murders. They were probably trained very well for procedures on what to do but that doesn't change a lack of experience and a lack of seeing a murder first hand-- and to their credit they called in the FBI very quickly to get additional resources and experienced agents involved. I'm not bashing the BCSD at all just saying their experience is different. JMO.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

To be fair, my theory is coming from a real life meth operation I was too close to 15 years ago. When the couple cooking the meth and a couple of their associates got busted there were others worried about being implicated. They had no idea who the tipster was (nor do I) but the question was “who could have possibly known?” This didn’t end in murder thank goodness because realistically I was one of those people who could have possibly known.

Quite something. But if the leader of the operation had an indication -- wrong or not -- about who the rat was, action would have been directed. What's hard to grasp is why the nabbing of Jayme would have been part of the operation, beyond any straight-up sexual attack and dump in the hours shortly afterward. Makes me sick to type that last bit -- sorry. "Counting back from 21, all alone."

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Anybody that knew anything at all would never enter and leave a scene like this!

Guns and kicking in the door make noise something a professional would never do! Silencers and quiet.

They would never take a 13 year old kid no way!

If this is what did happen it's a couple of meth heads crazy high on drugs with not a lick of sense but lucky as hell!

My gut instinct, from what little we really know about this case, is that this was someone relatively young, reckless, impulsive , and highly aggressive. There is absolutely NOTHING about this case that leads me to believe this was an organized crime in the sense that it was well planned or well executed. Lucky as hell, indeed.

IMO

 

[Angleterre]

After reading many posts and going on what little information we have from LE , I am leaning towards two possible scenarios. I think the Mark Furhman theory is very interesting. Denise being the target could explain why the perp(s) didn't kill Jayme . Although the perp(s) may have killed Denise (& James) in a rage, or for whatever reason , they may have had some type of connection or interaction with Jayme in the past and just couldn't kill her so they took her?
Or the theory I keep going back to is did Jayme possibly have a boyfriend the parents disapproved of or a secret boyfriend that Jayme may have fled with that night after a big argument that led to the killings? Although Jayme was frightened, horrified , and in shock seeing her parents killed the "boyfriend" made her leave with him and they are now hiding? MOO.

The latter part of your message is one of my train of thoughts

 

[kkdj]

deleted

 

[BeeGirl]

A little random, but go vote today. Support candidates who will vote to increase maximum sentences for those who commit crimes against children. Vote for candidates who believe in funding social services and measures to locate missing and exploited children. Vote for people who will pass legislation to help kids. Just go vote, darn it.

 

[Amonet]

Anybody that knew anything at all would never enter and leave a scene like this!

Guns and kicking in the door make noise something a professional would never do! Silencers and quiet.

They would never take a 13 year old kid no way!

If this is what did happen it's a couple of meth heads crazy high on drugs with not a lick of sense but lucky as hell!

I tend to agree with you on everything there except the last line.

Surely it would be really risky to take Jayme on a whim? Yet the perp seems to have gone in shooting.

The house is set back from the road, so I don't think it's entirely ideal for a totally random incident, unless someone followed them home and saw the car turn into the driveway, drove on and returned later with the knowledge that when they came back in the dark they'd have to watch out for that turn off?

I think it's possible that the perp could have gone there with the intention to abuse J while 'he' was there in the house. I also think it's possible that Denise was attacked during the time between the shots and the 911 call. But it seems more likely that the perp went there with the intention of killing the parents and taking J with them? Perhaps had a place ready that they intended to hold J, whether that might be something they'd prepared for or just somewhere that they had access to like a relative's hunting cabin? Especially if the perp was aware of the 911 call, driving off with a live person seems so risky. More so than turning up at a relatively remote location prepared to shoot. After all no one did call 911 because they'd heard shots, no one has reported through msm that they heard the door kicked in.

I can't see the point in a perp driving off with a dead body, especially not a meth-head or other druggie. If they wanted to cover up their presence in the house there are other ways to go about that, and then when they drive off they're 'clean'...at least if they get pulled over they don't have a live or dead body in the trunk.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

One more thing I'd like to add. There is absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that Jayme had any kind of secret "boyfriend" , real or cyber. No 13 year old girl has even an innocent crush and tells absolutely NO ONE about. Furthermore I am absolutely sure that LE has looked at Jayme's sm , interviewed her friends, her family and her school mates. If there had been anything there at all, I highly doubt LE would be posting stock photos of mysterious cars, asking for any information from the public about anyone who might have had an argument with the family, and chasing down thousands of tips from the public.

Again, JMO.

 

[SharonNeedles]

Quite something. But if the leader of the operation had an indication -- wrong or not -- about who the rat was, action would have been directed. What's hard to grasp is why the nabbing of Jayme would have been part of the operation, beyond any straight-up sexual attack and dump in the hours shortly afterward. Makes me sick to type that last bit -- sorry. "Couting back from 21, all alone."

I question whether there would have been a bona fide leader at all, also doubt that a “hit” was ordered in so many words. More a question of speculation - who outside of this circle could have possibly known? I mean, they want to think the leak didn’t come from within the circle. It must be somebody that’s close to someone in the circle. James and Denise had many local contacts, it’s nearly inevitable that either one could be in regular contact with somebody that’s involved whether they knew of it or not.

I don’t think it’s a stretch. Somebody wanted them dead and there just aren’t a lot of reasons that could be. It’s also not a stretch to say that some real despicable people are involved in the meth operations. If they’re twisted enough to kill I don’t see why they wouldn’t be twisted enough to take a 13 year old girl.

 

[kkdj]

My thoughts remain that the most logical assumption is that this was not random, that the Closs's knew the perp and he came for Jayme. I tend towards thinking there was only one perp. I also think it's possible Denise and he had argued over his relationship with Jayme and recently. jmo

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I question whether there would have been a bona fide leader at all, also doubt that a “hit” was ordered in so many words. More a question of speculation - who outside of this circle could have possibly known? I mean, they want to think the leak didn’t come from within the circle. It must be somebody that’s close to someone in the circle. James and Denise had many local contacts, it’s nearly inevitable that either one could be in regular contact with somebody that’s involved whether they knew of it or not.

I don’t think it’s a stretch. Somebody wanted them dead and there just aren’t a lot of reasons that could be. It’s also not a stretch to say that some real despicable people are involved in the meth operations. If they’re twisted enough to kill I don’t see why they wouldn’t be twisted enough to take a 13 year old girl.

For what it's worth, I think it's entirely possible that this crime could have been committed by someone hopped up on meth. I'm just not following your train of thought with respect to either of the Closses being CI's. Maybe I need another cup of coffee or something.