AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #29

[DetJoseyWales]

Welcome. You might prefer the actual dispatch log, published at http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/barron+county+call+log.pdf

Yes, thanks, I've read thru that many times lol. We should sticky it for others

 

[oceanstarryeyes]

First of all, it wasn't the 911 dispatcher who indicated this may be a suicide. It was the responding officer who made that statement. And he made that statement based on what he was seeing AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. The dispatch log is simply a record of the communication between dispatch and the public safety responders who are often in very high stress situations. Their observations are NOT the completed investigation. They do not have the information that everyone has after the fact. Unless or until you have been a 911 telecommunicator, you have no right to make judgements. MOO, based on 30 years of 911 experience.

I did not say that the 911 operator

First of all, it wasn't the 911 dispatcher who indicated this may be a suicide. It was the responding officer who made that statement. And he made that statement based on what he was seeing AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. The dispatch log is simply a record of the communication between dispatch and the public safety responders who are often in very high stress situations. Their observations are NOT the completed investigation. They do not have the information that everyone has after the fact. Unless or until you have been a 911 telecommunicator, you have no right to make judgements. MOO, based on 30 years of 911 experience.

I did not say that the 911 Dispatcher said it was a Suicide. I was answering a post asking opinions of 911 Operators.

 

[Loveandpeace]

How is this not in the media more?

 

[photographer4]

I wondered also if there was a laptop or desktop recovered from the home? Did Jayme or any one have a tablet or iPad?

Don't have the link handy at the moment, but have read the electronic sniffer dog found a tablet in the home. We weren't told if it was new or old, or who's it might have been.

 

[Queencitylaydee]

If perp(s) went only 5ft into home...how does the chair with the ties being carried out factor into the crime? Were the ties on the chair just from a chair cushion?

 

[Jax49]

If perp(s) went only 5ft into home...how does the chair with the ties being carried out factor into the crime? Were the ties on the chair just from a chair cushion?

Probably. Personally I believe there was bullet damage to the chair. moo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IDK. Handguns are used in about 90% of all homicides by firearm. Probably because they are easy to hide/store/carry. At close range you can shoot and kill a person in front of you with a handgun, one-handed, without bringing the sights up to your eyes, with little to no training.

My EDC (everyday-carry) holds 15 rounds and magazine change takes a couple seconds. If I couldn't kill 2 people in a small house with a handgun, they were probably shooting back while hiding behind an engine block 100 yards away.

Whatever the perp used, I'm with you - I hope they are brought to justice soon.

Thank you for your expert knowledge. I'm no expert by any means but I have shot both all types of long guns and various handguns. I was given my first .22 rifle when I was 11 years old.

Imo the perp did not use a shotgun but used a handgun instead.

I know some seem to think a shotgun had to be used but as you clearly state 90 percent of all homicides by firearm handguns were used. It may even be higher than 90 percent.

A handgun has been used countless times and many of the victims were killed instantly.

So it leaves me puzzled as to why some seem to think handguns cant kill victims instantly because they have thousands of times?

And as far as the sound they make when fired they can be extremely loud.

When we go to the gun range and I shoot at targets with my. 357 or .44 magnum long barrel its like a cannon going off. At times I have forgotten to bring my protective head gear or ear plugs and my ears will ring for hours afterwards.

As you know that is why LE always has on protective gear when they go to the police range to target practice with their service weapon because it can cause hearing loss.

Using a shotgun is much more clumsy and bulky and can't be concealed as easily. Many legal firearm owners who own handguns are very proficient when using their handguns. Even at my age I can still hit the bullseye.

An aside...I come from a long history of having police officers in my family and close friends who are in law enforcement.

I have asked every one of them would they say 'bullet casings' when referring to shotgun shells. They all looked at me like I had lost my mind lol with a puzzled look with some giving me eye rolls lol as if I was trying to ask them a "gotcha' question lol. And the general consistent answer was 'no of course not since they are totally different.'

All of them during their professional careers have testified in court concerning the exact firearms that had/have been used in committing crimes including identifying any bullet casings or shell casings found at the scene.

One I talked with is a very close friend of ours who is the sheriff in a neighboring county. He told me if any of his deputies ever used the incorrect terminology on either they would immediately be called to his office. He said it's never happened with any of his deputies. They are taught during their ongoing training including how to properly identify bullet casings vs identifying shell casings and making sure the right terminology is always used.

Lol! One thing I learned when talking to all of them it seems to be a pet peeve of theirs when they hear the media or regular citizens use the wrong terminology when talking about two totally different type of weapons.

Jmo

 

[Deerrun]

IMO I still feel that a shotgun was used, why the need for a closed casket for both if there wasn't extensive damage done, plus the loudness of the 2 shots heard etc. (I believe DC father mentioned he would have preferred an open casket, paraphrasing)
I agree with the earlier post that something brought all 3 out of their rooms. I believe the perp created as much noise as possible to shock them awake and run out and/or I liked the idea of someone yelling fire or something to that extent, I never thought of that rouse. Seasoned criminal with history of sex abuse, Jayme was def the target. Nothing else makes sense. I dont believe it was personal/rage motivated because of the quickness of death and I don't see overkill. I think they shot to kill parents so they can move in for intended target. I also like the idea from the same post earlier that perp is local and would be recognized during the day which is why he chose to do it at the time he did. Not sure why more extensive home searches are not being done cause I believe the answers LE is looking for is right in their backyard.

 

[Marzipan]

Who we referring to?

Did I miss something? Saw CA’s post but didn’t understand either.

 

[Deerrun]

Did I miss something? Saw CA’s post but didn’t understand either.

Don't know if I can say name but are they referring to SO Matthew A Norton? He is the one that committed 2nd degree assault on a child in Barron in 2004 and was non compliant with registration. He is in CO jail now.

 

[Cryptic]

My EDC (everyday-carry) holds 15 rounds and magazine change takes a couple seconds. If I couldn't kill 2 people in a small house with a handgun, they were probably shooting back while hiding behind an engine block 100 yards away.

Or maybe just shooting back.

Though I don't mean to criticize your skills, there can be a world of difference between shooting at paper targets and shooting at resisting targets.

Infantry veterans and trained police officers can all note many instances where marksmanship of trained people deteriorated very badly under the stress of combat. There are of course, some people whose skills don't deteriorate.

 

[deugirtni]

IMO I still feel that a shotgun was used, why the need for a closed casket for both if there wasn't extensive damage done, plus the loudness of the 2 shots heard etc. (I believe DC father mentioned he would have preferred an open casket, paraphrasing)
I agree with the earlier post that something brought all 3 out of their rooms. I believe the perp created as much noise as possible to shock them awake and run out and/or I liked the idea of someone yelling fire or something to that extent, I never thought of that rouse. Seasoned criminal with history of sex abuse, Jayme was def the target. Nothing else makes sense. I dont believe it was personal/rage motivated because of the quickness of death and I don't see overkill. I think they shot to kill parents so they can move in for intended target. I also like the idea from the same post earlier that perp is local and would be recognized during the day which is why he chose to do it at the time he did. Not sure why more extensive home searches are not being done cause I believe the answers LE is looking for is right in their backyard.

It is very possible the two were shot in a body location which was not able to be hidden, covered, or cosmetically altered to make it appropriate for viewing? I noticed too that DC's father was sad that he had not been able to view his daughter's body to see her one last time. Imho, for the funeral home to prevent him from doing so can only mean one thing. The only area I can imagine that couldn't be concealed would be the face. Would it only require one type of gun to cause that kind of damage to a face that would make it too painful and grotesque for loved ones to view?

From Pommymommy's earlier post listing quoted comments found in MSM about the victims:

"He said he hasn’t been able to put his daughter to rest in his mind because the casket was closed at her funeral, robbing him of the opportunity to see her one last time"

 

[daisy6441]

If perp(s) went only 5ft into home...how does the chair with the ties being carried out factor into the crime? Were the ties on the chair just from a chair cushion?

Probably. Personally I believe there was bullet damage to the chair. moo

Its a kitchen chair but it might not have been in the kitchen. I have a kitchen chair in the back room because it didn't fit with the way I had the table. It could also just be a random extra chair they kept by the door to sit on when removing shoes. They have this cabinet we saw in the pictures with the front door gone. It looks like it was piled up with things and pictures. The chair could have been sitting in that area to make a mudroom kind of space.

 

[Deerrun]

It is very possible the two were shot in a body location which was not able to be hidden, covered, or cosmetically altered to make it appropriate for viewing? I noticed too that DC's father was sad that he had not been able to view his daughter's body to see her one last time. Imho, for the funeral home to prevent him from doing so can only mean one thing. The only area I can imagine that couldn't be concealed would be the face. Would it only require one type of gun to cause that kind of damage to a face that would make it too painful and grotesque for loved ones to view?

From Pommymommy's earlier post listing quoted comments found in MSM about the victims:

"He said he hasn’t been able to put his daughter to rest in his mind because the casket was closed at her funeral, robbing him of the opportunity to see her one last time"

I understand your your point and sure a smaller caliber gun could have been used. BUT I do believe the neighbors heard 2 loud shots (I don't agree with their timeline though) I believe the front door did have shots through followed by the door being kicked in. I feel like a shotgun would create more damage and the need for shooting only twice is enough do what was intended. This is only my gut feeling but I will keep an open mind to others opinions. Thank you for posting exact quote, very sad...

 

[Cryptic]

question for those that shoot pistols regularly ....do u have to aim for each shot or do you retain some muscle memory to easily hit your target at say 20 ft or less?

I used to shoot pistols regularly.

That aside, the answer to your question is based on: Are we talking about paper targets on a range? Or about say, moving targets who might start shooting back, or moving targets who are actively shooting back?

On a familiar target range using non moving paper targets, I used to be able to hit targets from 20 feet away using muscle memory derived from knowing the point of aim and knowing when the weapon would fall back into alignment with the target after it recoiled up.

Fortunately, I have never been involved in a "fire fight". Under combat stress, all bets are usually off as stress can cause big deteriorations on skills.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IMO I still feel that a shotgun was used, why the need for a closed casket for both if there wasn't extensive damage done, plus the loudness of the 2 shots heard etc. (I believe DC father mentioned he would have preferred an open casket, paraphrasing)
I agree with the earlier post that something brought all 3 out of their rooms. I believe the perp created as much noise as possible to shock them awake and run out and/or I liked the idea of someone yelling fire or something to that extent, I never thought of that rouse. Seasoned criminal with history of sex abuse, Jayme was def the target. Nothing else makes sense. I dont believe it was personal/rage motivated because of the quickness of death and I don't see overkill. I think they shot to kill parents so they can move in for intended target. I also like the idea from the same post earlier that perp is local and would be recognized during the day which is why he chose to do it at the time he did. Not sure why more extensive home searches are not being done cause I believe the answers LE is looking for is right in their backyard.

I understand and respect that you believe a shotgun was used.

However I believe Fitzgerald who knows the difference and he said bullet casings. He knows bullets aren't used in shotguns.

There are other reasons her casket would be closed.

Since Fitzgerald said multiple bullet casings were found its logical to me Denise was shot multiple times. At least twice or even more. Imo

Imo when she saw her husband get shot she more than likely turned around trying to run away and was shot in the back of the head multiple times.

The exit wounds would blowout and crush facial bones as they exited her skull. The bullets from a high powered handgun would do horrendous damage.

Jmo

 

[Cryptic]

I disagree but to each their own opinion. There could have been two or multiple weapons used but if the scene was as bad as I’ve read, a semiauto pistol would have had to have been fired many times unless the perp was that dang accurate and got head/chest shots in just a try or two. Jmo

I agree.

"One shot, one kill" type shooting using pistols are easy to accomplish on ranges, but can be noticeably more difficult in other situations.

As a side note, the special forces hostage rescue team with the highest number of pistol one shot well, "stoppages" of hostage holding terrorists is the French national police rescue team.

That aside, the team uses .357 magnum revolvers only-no machine guns. Not surprisingly, they consist of people with above average eye hand coordination engaging in high quality practice daily.

 

[Songbird1973]

Delete for problems with quote

 

[Deerrun]

"Thirdly, allowing the public see the location of any wounds, even if they weren't disfiguring, would have been revealing evidence in a still unsolved murder case."
I like reason 3, thank you for posting this!

 

[Songbird1973]

I could not get my statement out of what I was trying to quote earlier, so I'm reposting

There are three reasons I can think of for a closed casket: First, morticians are picky. My brother was killed in an accident that damaged his right eye in a way that the mortician could not cover up, so he only allowed a single viewing by the immediate family, with damaged side covered with a cloth.

Secondly, the news of his gruesome accident (he was pulled into a large round hay baler and crushed) was very sensational in our small farming community, and the mortician said that if the public knew there would be an open casket at the funeral, strangers might attend out of morbid curiosity.

Thirdly, allowing the public see the location of any wounds, even if they weren't disfiguring, would have been revealing evidence in a still unsolved murder case.