WKMG - Homicide Charges Shortly, Grand Jury next week **MERGED THREADS** #2

[OneLostGrl]

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You know, I keep hearing that therapist on NG claim that a sociopath doesn't have a mental illness but a personality disorder. Where in the heck is she getting that from? I've never heard anyone claim that personality disorders aren't mental illnesses.

I wish NG would replace all these therapists with a qualified psychiatrist. Anyway, I'm copying this from wikipedia. Bolding is mine.

"Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture. The recognition and understanding of mental disorders have changed over time and across cultures. Definitions, assessments, and classifications of mental disorders can vary, but guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals are widely accepted by mental health professionals. Categories of diagnoses in these schemes may include dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, and many other categories."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

From an online medical dictionary:

mental illness
A broadly inclusive term, generally denoting one or all of the following: 1) a disease of the brain, with predominant behavioural symptoms, as in paresis or acute alcoholism; 2) a disease of the "mind" or personality, evidenced by abnormal behaviour, as in hysteria or schizophrenia; also called mental or emotional disease, disturbance, or disorder, or behaviour disorder, any psychiatric illness listed in Current Medical Information and Terminology of the American Medical Association or in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association.

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?mental+illness

OK I'm not trying to be rude or anything but you are kidding, right? The entire planet knows the vast differences between typical mental illnesses and personality disorders. The DSM even created an entirely new AXIS for personality disorders! Up until now your posts have made complete sense to me so I am really going to go on the assumtion that this is you joking with us.

If that's not the case and you wanna go into this- I am open to that and am more than willing to try to explain why some people do not consider personality disorders to be a mental illness but I think we should do it in the Psych profile thread so people don't get mad at me for for talkin' crazy in this thread. LOL- they get sick of me, I assure you!

 

[OneLostGrl]

We have no indication even in speculation that anything was wrong about Casey in her youth. We have heard she was shy, a good student, and quiet up until she dropped out of school. We have heard that she was 7 months pregnant but Cindy, George, and Casey denied she was even pregnant at Cindy's brothers wedding. What happened when she lost that job at Universal that she abandoned? Why does LP think LE knows who the father is but we get numerous stories and obfuscation from the family on who the father is? Why did LP say we would be shocked when the DNA evidence came forth in leaks? Why did Cindy and George coddle her as she lied and thieved? Why was Lee the one that could get her to talk when necessary? Why after the 3rd 911 call did the family demeanor change and why did Lee want to stop Cindy from making that call? Why has her best friend Annie's interviews not been released? Questions unanswered at this point.

I disagree with you. We know much that shows her behaviors were quite disfunctional by the time she met Jesse and she was already pregnant with Caylee by then.

 

[OneLostGrl]

That's more likely post traumatic stress disorder, that can come with that.

ugh, let's not be putting thoughts in peoples heads, now!

 

[TURBOTHINK]

To add to this post just do others are aware.. these court ordered evals are a joke! "Do you know your name.. the date, got kids, how old are you, what do you do for a living.. Do you know why you are here today, what you have done wrong.. understand why it's wrong.. well why did you do it.. how did you get here today, do you have any kids, are you married, what crime did you commit, what's the date today, who's you mother, what state do you live in?"

"We have these pictures here that we want you to look at and tell us what you see..." "Ok, now we are gonna read these sentances to you and we'll move on to other things but remember the sentances and we will come back to them later and ask you questions about them"... blah blah, yada yada

And then they get rude and want to know personal things but you don't have to answer. The whole process is a waste... a huge waste!

Many times the purpose is to keep a suspect from later claiming they are mentally incompetent to stand trial. They are asked a lot of questions which show they are capable of knowing right from wrong.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

ugh, let's not be putting thoughts in peoples heads, now!

Although NONE of these come under the legal definition of insanity - I choose Narcissism for KC.

B - Type

Antisocial Personality Disorder. People with antisocial personality disorder characteristically act out their conflicts and ignore normal rules of social behavior. These individuals are impulsive, irresponsible, and callous. Typically, the antisocial personality has a history of legal difficulties, belligerent and irresponsible behavior, aggressive and even violent relationships. They show no respect for other people and feel no remorse about the effects of their behavior on others. These people ware at high risk for substance abuse, especially alcoholism, since it helps them to relieve tension, irritability and boredom.

Borderline Personality Disorder. People with borderline personality disorder are unstable in several areas, including interpersonal relationships, behavior, mood, and self-image. Abrupt and extreme mood changes, stormy interpersonal relationships, an unstable and fluctuating self-image, unpredictable and self-destructive actions characterize the person with borderline personality disorder. These individuals generally have great difficulty with their own sense of identity. They often experience the world in extremes, viewing others as either “all good” or “all bad.” A person with borderline personality may form an intense personal attachment with someone only to quickly dissolve it over a perceived slight. Fears of abandonment may lead to an excessive dependency on others. Self-multilation or recurrent suicidal gestures may be used to get attention or manipulate others. Impulsive actions, chronic feelings of boredom or emptiness, and bouts of intense inappropriate anger are other traits of this disorder, which is more common among females.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People with narcissistic personality have an exaggerated sense of self-importance, are absorbed by fantasies of unlimited success, and seek constant attention. The narcissistic personality is oversensitive to failure and often complains of multiple somatic symptoms. They blame everyone around them for their failures. They are incapable of looking within their own self. Self examination is not possible with them. Prone to extreme mood swings between self-admiration and insecurity, these people tend to exploit interpersonal relationships. These individuals are impulsive, irresponsible, and callous as to other's feelings or needs.To get the attention they crave, they may try to create crises that return the focus to him. Narcissistic personality disorder often leads to use of drugs, particularly stimulants. As a disinhibitor, alcohol may help lower anxiety and alleviate depression. A shy person with narcissistic personality disorder may depend on marijuana to relieve her social anxiety, while others use steroids to boost confidence in physical perfection. Without AODs, a person with narcissistic personality disorder may believe that others are overly critical or do not adequately appreciate her good qualities.

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated
Uses others to reach goals
Exaggerates own importance
Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance
Has unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment from everyone around them
Needs constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Is easily jealous
Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

 

[gardenhart]

The confusion is coming from the following , I believe:

The fact that the victim is less than 12 years of age does not determine that it is a capital felony.

After a finding of guilty on an already charged capital felony, then that factor that the victim is under 12 is one of a list of aggravating circumstances to be used during PhaseII. ..during the second hearing to determine whether or not the death penalty will be imposed or whether it will be a life sentence.:blowkiss: i.e. It is used in the "punishment phase" and not as a reason to make the charge Murder 1 or Murder 2...

My info is from--921.141 Sentence of death or life imprisonment for capital felonies; further proceedings to determine sentence.--

Perhaps you'd better let Findlaw know that, because what I copied in my post is their "definition of capital homicide" in Florida.

If this isn't the criteria for charging capital murder, then what are the criteria? In Virginia, for example, you can only be charged with capital murder if it occurred in the commission of a robbery, rape, for multiple murders or murder of someone under 14, etc.

 

[magic-cat]

Here is a fairly good link with pretty good distinctions between a personality disorder and mental illness:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/180/2/110

 

[gardenhart]

If your opinion is that personality disorders are mental illnesses, that's OK. Everybody has an opinion. ;-)

I don't think this is simply my opinion but I can have my school of definitions and you can have yours.

I think I'm more concerned about the people who are confused about the legal definition of insane not understanding that someone can be profoundly mentally ill and still be legally sane.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Many times the purpose is to keep a suspect from later claiming they are mentally incompetent to stand trial. They are asked a lot of questions which show they are capable of knowing right from wrong.

Oh, Turbothink, I know what they are for!

 

[nancy botwin]

Perhaps you'd better let Findlaw know that, because what I copied in my post is their "definition of capital homicide" in Florida.

If this isn't the criteria for charging capital murder, then what are the criteria? In Virginia, for example, you can only be charged with capital murder if it occurred in the commission of a robbery, rape, for multiple murders or murder of someone under 14, etc.

I answered your post in the NG thread but maybe it got lost in the shuffle-- is determining the criteria for capital murder important bc you want to know if she could face the death penalty?

If so, you could find cleaner answers by searching for the actual charge that would be handed down-- it would be First Degree Murder-- or Felony Murder (which is also First Degree Murder)

Basically, capital murder is now just a colloquialism for death penalty-eligible. And the cleanest and best way to understand what elements would need to be proven to bring a death penalty-eligible charge = search first degree murder. I think that's what you're looking for?

I also think the 12 yo. victim thing on findlaw is wrong-- and possibly an error based on the fact that in FL, laws on the books say you can be convicted of a capital crime for the rape of a victim 12 yo. or younger. This type of law was invalidated by the Supreme Court this June, so it's dead-letter law but it's on the books in FL.

 

[gardenhart]

I answered your post in the NG thread but maybe it got lost in the shuffle-- is determining the criteria for capital murder important bc you want to know if she could face the death penalty?

If so, you could find cleaner answers by searching for the actual charge that would be handed down-- it would be First Degree Murder-- or Felony Murder (which is also First Degree Murder)

Basically, capital murder is now just a colloquialism for death penalty-eligible. And the cleanest and best way to understand what elements would need to be proven to bring a death penalty-eligible charge = search first degree murder. I think that's what you're looking for?

I also think the 12 yo. victim thing on findlaw is wrong-- and possibly an error based on the fact that in FL, laws on the books say you can be convicted of a capital crime for the rape of a victim 12 yo. or younger. This type of law was invalidated by the Supreme Court this June, so it's dead-letter law but it's on the books in FL.

Two different issues, Nancy. I sure am keeping you busy tonight.

I'm thoroughly confused, perhaps because the process is apparently very different in Florida than in my state. Here, you would either be charged with 1st or 2nd Degree murder - no death penalty - or capital murder with either life in prison or the death penalty.

There are criteria that have to be met before someone can be charged with capital murder. There are other criteria that would be considered during the sentencing phase such as whether the crime was particularly cruel, future dangerousness, etc.

I thought this was significant because it looks to me like you can be charged with capital murder in Florida if your victim is under the age of 12. That would mean if CA was charged with murder it would automatically qualify as a capital charge. But then it also appears that any premeditated murder would qualify?

I take it from what Miracles wrote that capital murder criteria are only considered in the sentencing phase in Florida. Is this correct? Obviously whether the defendant receives the death penalty is only considered in sentencing. I take it you all are saying the decision on whether the crime qualifies at all as a capital crime is only considered in the sentencing phase.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Although NONE of these come under the legal definition of insanity - I choose Narcissism for KC.

B - Type

Antisocial Personality Disorder. People with antisocial personality disorder characteristically act out their conflicts and ignore normal rules of social behavior. These individuals are impulsive, irresponsible, and callous. Typically, the antisocial personality has a history of legal difficulties, belligerent and irresponsible behavior, aggressive and even violent relationships. They show no respect for other people and feel no remorse about the effects of their behavior on others. These people ware at high risk for substance abuse, especially alcoholism, since it helps them to relieve tension, irritability and boredom.

Borderline Personality Disorder. People with borderline personality disorder are unstable in several areas, including interpersonal relationships, behavior, mood, and self-image. Abrupt and extreme mood changes, stormy interpersonal relationships, an unstable and fluctuating self-image, unpredictable and self-destructive actions characterize the person with borderline personality disorder. These individuals generally have great difficulty with their own sense of identity. They often experience the world in extremes, viewing others as either “all good” or “all bad.” A person with borderline personality may form an intense personal attachment with someone only to quickly dissolve it over a perceived slight. Fears of abandonment may lead to an excessive dependency on others. Self-multilation or recurrent suicidal gestures may be used to get attention or manipulate others. Impulsive actions, chronic feelings of boredom or emptiness, and bouts of intense inappropriate anger are other traits of this disorder, which is more common among females.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People with narcissistic personality have an exaggerated sense of self-importance, are absorbed by fantasies of unlimited success, and seek constant attention. The narcissistic personality is oversensitive to failure and often complains of multiple somatic symptoms. They blame everyone around them for their failures. They are incapable of looking within their own self. Self examination is not possible with them. Prone to extreme mood swings between self-admiration and insecurity, these people tend to exploit interpersonal relationships. These individuals are impulsive, irresponsible, and callous as to other's feelings or needs.To get the attention they crave, they may try to create crises that return the focus to him. Narcissistic personality disorder often leads to use of drugs, particularly stimulants. As a disinhibitor, alcohol may help lower anxiety and alleviate depression. A shy person with narcissistic personality disorder may depend on marijuana to relieve her social anxiety, while others use steroids to boost confidence in physical perfection. Without AODs, a person with narcissistic personality disorder may believe that others are overly critical or do not adequately appreciate her good qualities.

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated
Uses others to reach goals
Exaggerates own importance
Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance
Has unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment from everyone around them
Needs constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Is easily jealous
Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

When you provide that amount of information from another website you are required to give a link. Could you please provide us with one? TIA

While I agree Casey has a hell of a lot of Narcissistic qualities, I am just not of the opinion that personality disorders are so simple as to be able to just point at one and say "she/he has this one". Because it is often the case that we see the "symptoms" of other personality disorders in otherwise already diagnosed patients. Many of the symptoms of many of the disorders run together, hand in hand. On top of that I am also quite aware that in some cases an Axis I often comes along with an AXIS II.

If we are going on symptoms of every disorder we see in her I'd have to say she's got every personality disorder out there. I'm not comfortable doing that because one shows a couple of symptoms of a specific disorder. Because chances are they are also a symptom of 2 other personality disorders. Also, IF any type opf medication or therapy is going to help a person with a personality disorder it would be the same type of medication and the same type of therapy regardless of which disorder is diagnosed.

So I tend to generalize personality disorders ...But that's just me, my opinion!

 

[*~Aimee~*]

Hormones. Usually this behavior begins in the teens.

Or maybe being kept locked up tight then when older wanting all kinds of freedom and not knowing how to handle it. Cindy kept a tight grip on Casey I think growing up and when Casey turned 21 then it was party time for her and Casey did not know really how to handle being free and she did major wrong decisions ​

 

[nancy botwin]

Two different issues, Nancy. I sure am keeping you busy tonight.

I'm thoroughly confused, perhaps because the process is apparently very different in Florida than in my state. Here, you would either be charged with 1st or 2nd Degree murder - no death penalty - or capital murder with either life in prison or the death penalty.

There are criteria that have to be met before someone can be charged with capital murder. There are other criteria that would be considered during the sentencing phase such as whether the crime was particularly cruel, future dangerousness, etc.

I thought this was significant because it looks to me like you can be charged with capital murder in Florida if your victim is under the age of 12. That would mean if CA was charged with murder it would automatically qualify as a capital charge. But then it also appears that any premeditated murder would qualify?

I take it from what Miracles wrote that capital murder criteria are only considered in the sentencing phase in Florida. Is this correct? Obviously whether the defendant receives the death penalty is only considered in sentencing. I take it you all are saying the decision on whether the crime qualifies at all as a capital crime is only considered in the sentencing phase.

omg law school flashbacks... haha
In this case as well, I see what you're reading on findlaw and why you are saying what you're saying. I think the findlaw chart is misleading on the 12 yo victim info.
In FL, the fact that the murder victim is 12 wouldn't alone be sufficient to make the murder a first degree, or death penalty eligible, offense UNLESS it qualified under the Felony Murder rule via aggravated child abuse.

There are two phases here. At GJ they are going to want to prove a case for first degree murder which can be death penalty eligible at trial. They have to bring a case for first degree murder (either via standard premeditation theory or thru the felony murder rule). If the GJ feels the case and grants the indictment for first degree murder, she's charged and it goes to trial.
If she's found guilty of first degree murder (and not a lesser charge-- they will probably also provide the jury with the option to find her guilty of lower degrees of homicide etc), then the jury gets the case at the penalty phase and the victim's age will be contemplated as an aggravating factor.

So, I don't think Caylee's age will automatically ratchet this up to first degree. I do, however, think there's probably evidence of DRUGGING or CAGING (locking in the trunk) and that will make this first degree.

Im guessing your state only does death penalty for felony murders right?

 

[DianeB]

Or maybe being kept locked up tight then when older wanting all kinds of freedom and not knowing how to handle it. Cindy kept a tight grip on Casey I think growing up and when Casey turned 21 then it was party time for her and Casey did not know really how to handle being free and she did major wrong decisions ​

Maybe. I think it's more likely that Miss Casey has been successfully lying to mom for years, and got up to a lot of things mom knew nothing about. (Two words: virgin birth.)

Cindy may have thought she had Casey on a short leash, but I'm of the opinion that anyone who can get away with lying to and stealing from their family on a regular basis for years, has definitely got the upper hand.

 

[nancy botwin]

When you provide that amount of information from another website you are required to give a link. Could you please provide us with one? TIA

While I agree Casey has a hell of a lot of Narcissistic qualities, I am just not of the opinion that personality disorders are so simple as to be able to just point at one and say "she/he has this one". Because it is often the case that we see the "symptoms" of other personality disorders in otherwise already diagnosed patients. Many of the symptoms of many of the disorders run together, hand in hand. On top of that I am also quite aware that in some cases an Axis I often comes along with an AXIS II.

If we are going on symptoms of every disorder we see in her I'd have to say she's got every personality disorder out there. I'm not comfortable doing that because one shows a couple of symptoms of a specific disorder. Because chances are they are also a symptom of 2 other personality disorders. Also, IF any type opf medication or therapy is going to help a person with a personality disorder it would be the same type of medication and the same type of therapy regardless of which disorder is diagnosed.

So I tend to generalize personality disorders ...But that's just me, my opinion!

psst-- hi
I asked you about this on the Cindy thread, but that was in the wrong place and it may have gotten lost in the shuffle. Sorry if you're choosing not to answer the question-- I don't mean to pry, but I was really curious so I'll ask again. I recognize the limitations and pitfalls of randomly assigning a label, but I was curious how you would classify Casey-- for the sake of brainstorming/contemplation. Like the few diagnoses you personally think seem to correspond with her exhibited behaviors? There's obviously a lot going on, but do you see signs of dominant pathology?

I'm not trying to be strange, I just think you have great insight re: personality from what I've read in the threads.

 

[gardenhart]

omg law school flashbacks... haha
In this case as well, I see what you're reading on findlaw and why you are saying what you're saying. I think the findlaw chart is misleading on the 12 yo victim info.
In FL, the fact that the murder victim is 12 wouldn't alone be sufficient to make the murder a first degree, or death penalty eligible, offense UNLESS it qualified under the Felony Murder rule via aggravated child abuse.

There are two phases here. At GJ they are going to want to prove a case for first degree murder which can be death penalty eligible at trial. They have to bring a case for first degree murder (either via standard premeditation theory or thru the felony murder rule). If the GJ feels the case and grants the indictment for first degree murder, she's charged and it goes to trial.
If she's found guilty of first degree murder (and not a lesser charge-- they will probably also provide the jury with the option to find her guilty of lower degrees of homicide etc), then the jury gets the case at the penalty phase and the victim's age will be contemplated as an aggravating factor.

So, I don't think Caylee's age will automatically ratchet this up to first degree. I do, however, think there's probably evidence of DRUGGING or CAGING (locking in the trunk) and that will make this first degree.

Im guessing your state only does death penalty for felony murders right?

No, only capital murder could mean the death penalty. Someone charged with 1st Degree murder would face up to life in prison, not death.

The jury would decide at trial whether the person was guilty of capital murder, including the special criteria for that charge - murder in the commission of a robbery, murder of more than one person, etc.

During sentencing, they would decide whether the person should receive the death penalty or life in prison. The criteria at that phase wouldn't focus on the criteria that made it a capital crime but on factors such as whether it was a particularly cruel or heinous act, future dangerousness of the defendant, any mitigating circumstances, and so on.

Also, in Virginia the jury only recommends the sentence. The final decision would be up to the trial judge.

 

[nancy botwin]

No, only capital murder could mean the death penalty. Someone charged with 1st Degree murder would face up to life in prison, not death.

The jury would decide at trial whether the person was guilty of capital murder, including the special criteria for that charge - murder in the commission of a robbery, murder of more than one person, etc.

During sentencing, they would decide whether the person should receive the death penalty or life in prison. The criteria at that phase wouldn't focus on the criteria that made it a capital crime but on factors such as whether it was a particularly cruel or heinous act, future dangerousness of the defendant, any mitigating circumstances, and so on.

Also, in Virginia the jury only recommends the sentence. The final decision would be up to the trial judge.

ok-- i see
Virginia is essentially a felony murder rule state, but capital murder can also be charged when there's a special victim-- ( a child or state agent/ward). FL is more broad in that premeditation alone can => death. FL is more narrow (as far as I know) in its special victims categories.

The states are the same re: penalty phase. FL also lets the judge make the final decision under the advisement of the jury. FL is unique, however, in that it's the only state that allows a jury to recommend death by a majority vote. All other states require juror unanimity.

Thanks for filling me in re: VA-- every state is different and it's cool to have a reason to read up. I'm going to use this icon one last time because it's exciting. :woohoo:

 

[gardenhart]

ok-- i see
Virginia is essentially a felony murder rule state, but capital murder can also be charged when there's a special victim-- ( a child or state agent/ward). FL is more broad in that premeditation alone can => death. FL is more narrow (as far as I know) in its special victims categories.

The states are the same re: penalty phase. FL also lets the judge make the final decision under the advisement of the jury. FL is unique, however, in that it's the only state that allows a jury to recommend death by a majority vote. All other states require juror unanimity.

Thanks for filling me in re: VA-- every state is different and it's cool to have a reason to read up. I'm going to use this icon one last time because it's exciting. :woohoo:

Thanks so much for all your help, Nancy. And I really like your woohoo icon too. LOL

Yes, here it's capital murder only if one of the criteria is met. Simple premeditated murder with none of the special circumstances would be 1st degree.

Wow on the majority vote! That's very interesting.

Thanks again for all your very clear explanations.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I don't think this is simply my opinion but I can have my school of definitions and you can have yours.

I think I'm more concerned about the people who are confused about the legal definition of insane not understanding that someone can be profoundly mentally ill and still be legally sane.

I have to say, you are right in that technically personality disorders are considered a mental ilness. The difference in the axis' are Axis I: are considered Clinical Syndromes and Axis II are considered Developmental Disorders and Personality Disorders.

here is a link to info on the DSM and diagnostic criteria.. http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html


For those of you that may have some concern about Casey trying to use an insanity defense, I really wouldn't worry too much. It is used for the "insane" and the insane only. A study back in the 90's showed less than 1% of criminals use NGBRI as a defense and of those only 1/4 of them win.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/aron/qa227.htm

Even Andrea Yates lost her insanity defense the first time around and that woman is insane!