WKMG - Homicide Charges Shortly, Grand Jury next week **MERGED THREADS** #2

[OneLostGrl]

Guess my last post is slightly OT but my general interpretation of the law is that (simply put) it is attempting to distinguish legitimate defects of the mind from those of the heart so to speak; and to seek retribution based on which of these is found present. Maybe both in some instances or none in others but legal insanity it seems seeks in theory to establish the presence of solely a mental one, one sufficient to prevent understanding at the time that their criminal actions were wrong. So in my very inexpert opinion then it seems people w personality disorders have more (simply put) a "heart" defect if you will, albeit learned behavior (as OneGirl once pointed out) but ineligible for NGBRI. Which certainly isn't to say there's no underlying pathology, or traceable cause, but no legally culpable influences. At the risk of repeating myself since I said this earlier in thread, after CA had let KC off for stealing her credit cards and virtually every transgression in her life, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draw the line that Father's Day, threatening during an argument to hold KC accountable for evidently the first time in KC's life for stealing from her aging grandparent. So in an odd sense, KC is actually correct then when she says, "I should've been stopped a long time ago" but her statement reveals a weakness of conscience and a consciousness of guilt--and therefore a heart as opposed to a mental defect. And the law is unconcerned w such nuances, contributing factors, or how KC came to be the (reckless, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful or seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become. JMHO

Great post. Let me just point out though that this is not just the case for personality disorders.. the same goes for all mental illnesses, unless you had no control over your actions or were unable to know right from wrong you are going to be held accountable, as it should be!!

I would not want to live in a world where the law is forced to take into consideration when trying me for murder the way in which I grew up. Because ya know what, if they did, they would let people like me get away with murder simply because our childhood sucked and we were abused or neglected. I could kill my son and blame my mother for raising me the way she did. That is not insanity, nor should it be!

If you are willing to cross that line and take another persons life- you must loose your right to walk amongst society. We have to protect society FIRST.

Again, NGBRI is not an easy thing to prove, even for the truly insane!

 

[TURBOTHINK]

What all is involved with the emotional cognitive abilities or lack there of that effects motivation and developmental mile stones? If she had no concept of true self discipline then she isn't going to be able to achieve in school up to her abilities(whatever they were). Could she have a disorder or disorders never identified that kept her from being capable of overcoming what she lacked? What is education if it isn't geared to the individual who Lacks something---needs to be taught that something. If she resisted, then why----Is it in her or in the environment that forced a conditioning to be the Narcissistic she became????

That is a "case study" question asked in many psychology/sociology classes. I believe the answer most closely is in "People of the Lie", by M. Scott Peck.

 

[bookworm474]

I do need to re-read "People of the Lie" and the explanation pertaining to one having no heart seems to apply. I'd rather understand how someone develops into a shell of a person with no real self and not have a brain based chemical disorder. The part of the brain that allows emotional cognitions needs the properly regulated chemicals to function properly and over time wouldn't a person end up with a personality disorder or experience a lot of misunderstanding of reality.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Can't give you a link typed it out of about 7 different abnormal/criminal psychology books for diagnosis criteria.

As for the meds all being the same, they are not and there are many different methods for treating each one depending on the age, the severity and what symptoms show.

Unfortunately many psychologists and psychiatrists tend to group them together also and many people do not get the help they need.

I'm sorry but you make a habit of this and I find it quite annoying.
I am going to alert this post because as always you offer information that is incorrect and when asked for a link you do not give one.

Why do you insist on doing this over and over and over again?

 

[OneLostGrl]

See? This is exactly the point I was trying to make about people not understanding that you can be up to your eyeballs mentally ill but still be legally insane.

The only criteria in court would be whether the defendant understood the difference between right and wrong. Period. Beyond that, she or he can have every disorder in the books and it won't matter.

It doesn't matter whether she or he is a heartless and cruel sociopath or psychotic or even mentally retarded. If they ran away or did anything to hide their crime or lied to hide their crime, it would show they understood what they did was wrong and they were legally sane.

It's not, oh, she has a personality disorder therefore we know she's legally sane. It wouldn't matter what mental issues she had beyond that criteria.

I agree.. knowing right from wrong should be knowing right from wrong- I don't care what the diagnosis!

I believe the entire concept needs re-visiting.

There have not been updates in that part of the system in I can't tell you how long. There are, IMO, rights being trampled upon all over with the mentally ill while in the criminal courts. I also have issue with each state having their own rules in regard to the NGBRI defense.

 

[OneLostGrl]

They are ALL also typical of an addict. The behaviors, and personality disorders can stem from addiction and manifest just as real as someone who has had them all their life. That is why she needs a full psychiatric, drug abuse, and social work up which I doubt she will get. All LE wants to prove is if she knows right from wrong.

Here, we finally agree.

The behaviors of a personality disordered person are also many-times behaviors of an addict but an addict is also many-times personality disordered.

As far as drugs, we already discussed that before, we all pretty much have agreed we don't think she was doing meth.

 

[OneLostGrl]

What all is involved with the emotional cognitive abilities or lack there of that effects motivation and developmental mile stones? If she had no concept of true self discipline then she isn't going to be able to achieve in school up to her abilities(whatever they were). Could she have a disorder or disorders never identified that kept her from being capable of overcoming what she lacked? What is education if it isn't geared to the individual who Lacks something---needs to be taught that something. If she resisted, then why----Is it in her or in the environment that forced a conditioning to be the Narcissistic she became????

Umm, I don't have a clue about any of her education stuff but she doesn't seem slow to me.

 

[bookworm474]

I guess the point I wanted to make was that all we experience is the education that tells us what makes the world tic and what we can do in that world. Some people are convinced that this is a dog eat dog world and since they expect to be treated in an unfair manner, they tend not to be too interested in fairness for others. What we experience has much to do with how we perceive and understand. Casey for whatever reasons internal and external hasn't seemed to have benefited from the benefits she has received in life. And she has chosen to live in a fantasy unfeeling world either conditioned by herself or others pressures.

 

[Brini]

I do need to re-read "People of the Lie" and the explanation pertaining to one having no heart seems to apply. I'd rather understand how someone develops into a shell of a person with no real self and not have a brain based chemical disorder. The part of the brain that allows emotional cognitions needs the properly regulated chemicals to function properly and over time wouldn't a person end up with a personality disorder or experience a lot of misunderstanding of reality.

Well, if you look up most of the psychotropics in the PDR, it often says, "We don't really understand how this works."

The earliest antidepressant (Elevil, I think), for instance, was the serendipitous product of antihistamine research, of all things.

We don't know more than we know re: neurology.

That being said, we have a lot of very effective psychotropics and mood stabilizers. But, so far, we haven't found much of anything for any of the personality disorders.

 

[Brini]

What all is involved with the emotional cognitive abilities or lack there of that effects motivation and developmental mile stones? If she had no concept of true self discipline then she isn't going to be able to achieve in school up to her abilities(whatever they were). Could she have a disorder or disorders never identified that kept her from being capable of overcoming what she lacked? What is education if it isn't geared to the individual who Lacks something---needs to be taught that something. If she resisted, then why----Is it in her or in the environment that forced a conditioning to be the Narcissistic she became????

There is no answer, to that. Personality disorders usually manifest characterologically, not neurologically. So, developmental milestones might not be an issue. If they had been, I'm sure that her Mom, being an RN, would have noticed.

And, no one is quite sure of the mechanics of the dysfunction. There's the usual battle re: nature v. nurture. I think it's a bit of both.

 

[Brini]

Can't give you a link typed it is a culmination out of about 7 different abnormal/criminal psychology books for diagnosis criteria.

As for the meds all being the same, they are not and there are many different methods for treating each one depending on the age, the severity and what symptoms show.

Unfortunately many psychologists and psychiatrists tend to group them together also and many people do not get the help they need.

Since we don't have any truly effective treaments for any of them, treatment is likiely not to help, in any case. We don't have spcific and effective meds or personality disorders that work.

Many Axis IIs go to the shrink, become a perfect chameleonic patients, and take no benefit from treatment. They just become what the treator wants.

The patient DOES have to participate to benefit.

However, it is NOT true that most shrinks tend to group them together and treat them all the same. Which is why I think we'll see (if we ever see) about three different Axis II dx, in KCs chart. MOO.

 

[Brini]

I'm sorry but you make a habit of this and I find it quite annoying.
I am going to alert this post because as always you offer information that is incorrect and when asked for a link you do not give one.

Why do you insist on doing this over and over and over again?

Yes, that information IS quite incorrect.

 

[Brini]

I agree no Axis I, she isn't enough of a real person, ya know? But... and this is an entirely different discussion and O/T so feel free to ignore me if you want to LOL. If she were to drop the act, the narcisstic act and allow those borderline feelings I think we'd find her digging at her skin in no time!

eta- regarding ASPD, the criteria is different then it was for Sociopath, it's much more broad. but as you say, regardless it's more or less what the DSM has replaced it with. (My step father was diagnosed with ASPD, he was a joy to live with)

I think you are prolly right.

 

[Brini]

Or maybe being kept locked up tight then when older wanting all kinds of freedom and not knowing how to handle it. Cindy kept a tight grip on Casey I think growing up and when Casey turned 21 then it was party time for her and Casey did not know really how to handle being free and she did major wrong decisions ​

I was kept locked up, and overcontrolled.

So, I got a job and got my own place. That's what KC could have done, rather than stealing, lying, and maybe worse.

That's what makes her disfunctional.

 

[Brini]

See? This is exactly the point I was trying to make about people not understanding that you can be up to your eyeballs mentally ill but still be legally insane.

The only criteria in court would be whether the defendant understood the difference between right and wrong. Period. Beyond that, she or he can have every disorder in the books and it won't matter.

It doesn't matter whether she or he is a heartless and cruel sociopath or psychotic or even mentally retarded. If they ran away or did anything to hide their crime or lied to hide their crime, it would show they understood what they did was wrong and they were legally sane.

It's not, oh, she has a personality disorder therefore we know she's legally sane. It wouldn't matter what mental issues she had beyond that criteria.

Beyond that criteria, does she know right from wrong? Yes. Can she control her behavior? Yes, when she wants to do.

She's too dangerous to be on the streets. We don't have an effectoive treament for personality disorders, so she doesn't belong in a hospital.

That leaves prison. Her choice.

If she decompensates in prison, and goes nuts, that would be a whole different situation. But, some socios do well in the structure of prison.

 

[Short_Stuff]

I do not understand how the current grand jury is going to hear this entire case in one day? This grand jury is finished next Tuesday the day of the hearing. Does the next one take over after this grand jury hears part of the evidence?

 

[bookworm474]

Brini---thanks for your posts. Ok true that we should be in the domain of characterlogical issues with Casey. I have read and understand that the sense of right and wrong is inborn then further developed by education. I understand it as the conscious or intuitive ability to debate inside when there is a decision to be made that there is in fact a choice to be made in some incidence in life. But if someone draws only from instinct of a drive that is not conscious haven't they short circuited that place of soul that houses the information that needs to be processed. Why would they do that like a compulsion impulsively acted upon without that deeper thought process. Isn't that the lack of development that is a developmental issue.

 

[gardenhart]

I do not understand how the current grand jury is going to hear this entire case in one day? This grand jury is finished next Tuesday the day of the hearing. Does the next one take over after this grand jury hears part of the evidence?

Keep in mind they don't have to lay out the entire case, just enough to convince the grand jury there is probable cause to indict. It's very possible to do that in one day.

And, yes, they can take the case back to the next grand jury if this one doesn't indict.

 

[Macushla]

I do not understand how the current grand jury is going to hear this entire case in one day? This grand jury is finished next Tuesday the day of the hearing. Does the next one take over after this grand jury hears part of the evidence?

They are not going to hear the entire case. They will hear evidence presented by the State and decide whether there is enough evidence to warrant a homicide charge - and perhaps even what type of charge, murder, manslaughter, etc. I think the State will present a condensed version of their case.

 

[impatientredhead]

I do not understand how the current grand jury is going to hear this entire case in one day? This grand jury is finished next Tuesday the day of the hearing. Does the next one take over after this grand jury hears part of the evidence?

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/chapter30/flgrandjuryhandbook.rtf

TERM OF THE GRAND JURY
At least two terms of court are held each year and once the grand jury is empaneled, it will serve for the balance of the term of court. In exceptional cases, its term may be extended. (The statewide grand jury's term is for a period of 12 months, but may be extended for up to 18 months.) The grand jury will not be in continuous session but will be called in from time to time as necessary.