WKMG - Homicide Charges Shortly, Grand Jury next week **MERGED THREADS** #2

[OneLostGrl]

psst-- hi
I asked you about this on the Cindy thread, but that was in the wrong place and it may have gotten lost in the shuffle. Sorry if you're choosing not to answer the question-- I don't mean to pry, but I was really curious so I'll ask again. I recognize the limitations and pitfalls of randomly assigning a label, but I was curious how you would classify Casey-- for the sake of brainstorming/contemplation. Like the few diagnoses you personally think seem to correspond with her exhibited behaviors? There's obviously a lot going on, but do you see signs of dominant pathology?

I'm not trying to be strange, I just think you have great insight re: personality from what I've read in the threads.

ooops, sorry LOL. I shouldn't even be talking about mental illness crap here, I'll probably get in trouble LOL

Ya know, besides the fact that she's a liar and a chear and a thief.. I see a lot of Borderline behaviors, some Psychopathic traits, no doubt some Narcissism and tons of impulse control issues. She has extremely low self esteem, almost no sense of self apart from her mother. I don't think she knows who or what she is but I do think she feels things... just differently then others do.

 

[CaliKid]

ooops, sorry LOL. I shouldn't even be talking about mental illness crap here, I'll probably get in trouble LOL

Ya know, besides the fact that she's a liar and a chear and a thief.. I see a lot of Borderline behaviors, some Psychopathic traits, no doubt some Narcissism and tons of impulse control issues. She has extremely low self esteem, almost no sense of self apart from her mother. I don't think she knows who or what she is but I do think she feels things... just differently then others do.

I see a LOT of narcissism

 

[nancy botwin]

ooops, sorry LOL. I shouldn't even be talking about mental illness crap here, I'll probably get in trouble LOL

Ya know, besides the fact that she's a liar and a chear and a thief.. I see a lot of Borderline behaviors, some Psychopathic traits, no doubt some Narcissism and tons of impulse control issues. She has extremely low self esteem, almost no sense of self apart from her mother. I don't think she knows who or what she is but I do think she feels things... just differently then others do.

Thank you for answering! And you can't be OT, mens rea is fundamental to the charge

I agree with you-- if a DX is made thru the constellation of symptoms, Casey's got her own galaxy, that's for sure. I get interested when people say "but s/he feels things" -- even Ted Bundy had feelings-- that's why his pre-arrest victims all looked like the first girl who "broke his heart" ...
I started out thinking BPD, but she shot up the narcissistic continuum and now I just see psychopath. I wish we could see those evaluations!

 

[pregodego2]

I agree - tho I really think Baez has a lot to do with all this not talking - if you noticed Casey wasn't all c*cky and brazen in the beginning, it was when Baez was whispering in her ear and then started doing all this stuff - the 8 hours in the office, etc. - then she changed with the 'attitude' she shows just by her walk for instance - granted she could have always walked like that but that is not a walk of a person who is scared of LE and any consequences

Not true...Did you see the walk with her first in handcuffs? The same botty shake walk, the same cocky behavior and the SMILE on her face when she realized all eyes (and cameras) were on her now.

 

[lostnfound85]

Agreed. Particularly in the absense of a body. There must be no doubt that it is Caylee. I believe they have that evidence now.

I'm still holding out hope, however, that TES finds Caylee's remains before this case goes to trial.

It won't make any difference, unless they can glean some forensic evidence from the body, which is doubtful now.

 

[Brini]

Here is a fairly good link with pretty good distinctions between a personality disorder and mental illness:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/180/2/110

THAT is SO good! Thanks, MC!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

BTW-- And, so is your squirrel signature!

 

[Brini]

When you provide that amount of information from another website you are required to give a link. Could you please provide us with one? TIA

While I agree Casey has a hell of a lot of Narcissistic qualities, I am just not of the opinion that personality disorders are so simple as to be able to just point at one and say "she/he has this one". Because it is often the case that we see the "symptoms" of other personality disorders in otherwise already diagnosed patients. Many of the symptoms of many of the disorders run together, hand in hand. On top of that I am also quite aware that in some cases an Axis I often comes along with an AXIS II.

If we are going on symptoms of every disorder we see in her I'd have to say she's got every personality disorder out there. I'm not comfortable doing that because one shows a couple of symptoms of a specific disorder. Because chances are they are also a symptom of 2 other personality disorders. Also, IF any type opf medication or therapy is going to help a person with a personality disorder it would be the same type of medication and the same type of therapy regardless of which disorder is diagnosed.

So I tend to generalize personality disorders ...But that's just me, my opinion!

I also think she has all three of the above.

And, no Axis I.

Antisocial Personality Disiorder is the old-new name for Sociopathy. It used to be called Antisocial, then it went to Sociopathic. Now, it's back to Antisocial. DSM does that every few years, or so.

Under any name, it's a toughy. :-(

 

[Brini]

I have to say, you are right in that technically personality disorders are considered a mental ilness. The difference in the axis' are Axis I: are considered Clinical Syndromes and Axis II are considered Developmental Disorders and Personality Disorders.

here is a link to info on the DSM and diagnostic criteria.. http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html


For those of you that may have some concern about Casey trying to use an insanity defense, I really wouldn't worry too much. It is used for the "insane" and the insane only. A study back in the 90's showed less than 1% of criminals use NGBRI as a defense and of those only 1/4 of them win.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/aron/qa227.htm

Even Andrea Yates lost her insanity defense the first time around and that woman is insane!

Andrea Yates lost? WOW! That was one tough court! Poor woman was a Snickers bar!

 

[Brini]

ooops, sorry LOL. I shouldn't even be talking about mental illness crap here, I'll probably get in trouble LOL

Ya know, besides the fact that she's a liar and a chear and a thief.. I see a lot of Borderline behaviors, some Psychopathic traits, no doubt some Narcissism and tons of impulse control issues. She has extremely low self esteem, almost no sense of self apart from her mother. I don't think she knows who or what she is but I do think she feels things... just differently then others do.

You're dead right! She doesn't have the normal adult "borders." And, she and her mother seem "enmeshed."

 

[Brini]

Not true...Did you see the walk with her first in handcuffs? The same botty shake walk, the same cocky behavior and the SMILE on her face when she realized all eyes (and cameras) were on her now.

Axis IIs LURVE that attention. To them it means approval and admiration. Even negative attention is better than NO attention.

 

[Brini]

Hi Brini-
I just had this same discussion with my 17 year old today and was attempting to explain why sociopathy was not accepted as a mental illness, although it IS a disorder. The person KNOWS right from wrong, they just don't care was it in a nutshell. Now, my own mother is 100% proof positive a sociopath amoung other things, and I do believe that they can also develop other mental illnesses, but sociopathy in and of itself is a disordered personality that says ME ME ME ME ME ME and to heck with the rest of you all I care about is ME ME ME ME ME...They KNOW what is right and legal and what is wrong and illegal, but disregard that knowledge to fulfill their own desires...

That about sums it up! Good job!

A lot of shrinks these days see personality disorders as a developmental issue-- at least in part. A component of profound immaturity.

The prisons are full of 'em.

And, you're right. Axis IIs can ALSO have an Axis I. But, KC is not gonna be able to convnce ANYBODY of that! ;-)

 

[kiki the parrot]

Quote: Although NONE of these come under the legal definition of insanity - I choose Narcissism for KC.

ITA The reports and descriptions we're hearing and what behaviors and attitudes we are able to observe are IMO completely consistent with NPD. Envy, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement, exploiting others... textbook. JMUO (unprofessional)

 

[kiki the parrot]

Guess my last post is slightly OT but my general interpretation of the law is that (simply put) it is attempting to distinguish legitimate defects of the mind from those of the heart so to speak; and to seek retribution based on which of these is found present. Maybe both in some instances or none in others but legal insanity it seems seeks in theory to establish the presence of solely a mental one, one sufficient to prevent understanding at the time that their criminal actions were wrong. So in my very inexpert opinion then it seems people w personality disorders have more (simply put) a "heart" defect if you will, albeit learned behavior (as OneGirl once pointed out) but ineligible for NGBRI. Which certainly isn't to say there's no underlying pathology, or traceable cause, but no legally culpable influences. At the risk of repeating myself since I said this earlier in thread, after CA had let KC off for stealing her credit cards and virtually every transgression in her life, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draw the line that Father's Day, threatening during an argument to hold KC accountable for evidently the first time in KC's life for stealing from her aging grandparent. So in an odd sense, KC is actually correct then when she says, "I should've been stopped a long time ago" but her statement reveals a weakness of conscience and a consciousness of guilt--and therefore a heart as opposed to a mental defect. And the law is unconcerned w such nuances, contributing factors, or how KC came to be the (reckless, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful or seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become. JMHO

 

[gardenhart]

Guess my last post is slightly OT but my general interpretation of the law is that (simply put) it is attempting to distinguish legitimate defects of the mind from those of the heart so to speak; and to seek retribution based on which of these is found present. Maybe both in some instances or none in others but legal insanity it seems seeks in theory to establish the presence of solely a mental one, one sufficient to prevent understanding at the time that their criminal actions were wrong. So in my very inexpert opinion then it seems people w personality disorders have more (simply put) a "heart" defect if you will, albeit learned behavior (as OneGirl once pointed out) but ineligible for NGBRI. Which certainly isn't to say there's no underlying pathology, or traceable cause, but no legally culpable influences. At the risk of repeating myself since I said this earlier in thread, after CA had let KC off for stealing her credit cards and virtually every transgression in her life, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draw the line that Father's Day, threatening during an argument to hold KC accountable for evidently the first time in KC's life for stealing from her aging grandparent. So in an odd sense, KC is actually correct then when she says, "I should've been stopped a long time ago" but her statement reveals a weakness of conscience and a consciousness of guilt--and therefore a heart as opposed to a mental defect. And the law is unconcerned w such nuances, contributing factors, or how KC came to be the (reckless, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful or seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become. JMHO

See? This is exactly the point I was trying to make about people not understanding that you can be up to your eyeballs mentally ill but still be legally insane.

The only criteria in court would be whether the defendant understood the difference between right and wrong. Period. Beyond that, she or he can have every disorder in the books and it won't matter.

It doesn't matter whether she or he is a heartless and cruel sociopath or psychotic or even mentally retarded. If they ran away or did anything to hide their crime or lied to hide their crime, it would show they understood what they did was wrong and they were legally sane.

It's not, oh, she has a personality disorder therefore we know she's legally sane. It wouldn't matter what mental issues she had beyond that criteria.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I see a LOT of narcissism

Me too.. BUT- the Borderline issues I see in her cancel out and explain (for me at least) some of what appears to be narcisstic. I don't know how to explain this in words so I will try my best..

Some of what looks like narcissism in Casey seems to me an act to cover up the needy, lonely, aching, empty borderline feelings.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for answering! And you can't be OT, mens rea is fundamental to the charge

I agree with you-- if a DX is made thru the constellation of symptoms, Casey's got her own galaxy, that's for sure. I get interested when people say "but s/he feels things" -- even Ted Bundy had feelings-- that's why his pre-arrest victims all looked like the first girl who "broke his heart" ...
I started out thinking BPD, but she shot up the narcissistic continuum and now I just see psychopath. I wish we could see those evaluations!

See the problem I am finding here with this case though is everyone keeps stating Psychopaths do not feel things.. I do not agree with that. They feel things just in their own twisted way.

I believe Anti-social personality disorder will be what she will be diagnosed with if she even ends up with a diagnosis.. for the simple fact that it is very broad and encompasses many different issues including criminal behavior and addiction. IMO, ASPD is the DSM's way of putting all these symptoms into a neat little packaged box.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I also think she has all three of the above.

And, no Axis I.

Antisocial Personality Disiorder is the old-new name for Sociopathy. It used to be called Antisocial, then it went to Sociopathic. Now, it's back to Antisocial. DSM does that every few years, or so.

Under any name, it's a toughy. :-(

I agree no Axis I, she isn't enough of a real person, ya know? But... and this is an entirely different discussion and O/T so feel free to ignore me if you want to LOL. If she were to drop the act, the narcisstic act and allow those borderline feelings I think we'd find her digging at her skin in no time!

eta- regarding ASPD, the criteria is different then it was for Sociopath, it's much more broad. but as you say, regardless it's more or less what the DSM has replaced it with. (My step father was diagnosed with ASPD, he was a joy to live with)

 

[TURBOTHINK]

When you provide that amount of information from another website you are required to give a link. Could you please provide us with one? TIA

While I agree Casey has a hell of a lot of Narcissistic qualities, I am just not of the opinion that personality disorders are so simple as to be able to just point at one and say "she/he has this one". Because it is often the case that we see the "symptoms" of other personality disorders in otherwise already diagnosed patients. Many of the symptoms of many of the disorders run together, hand in hand. On top of that I am also quite aware that in some cases an Axis I often comes along with an AXIS II.

If we are going on symptoms of every disorder we see in her I'd have to say she's got every personality disorder out there. I'm not comfortable doing that because one shows a couple of symptoms of a specific disorder. Because chances are they are also a symptom of 2 other personality disorders. Also, IF any type opf medication or therapy is going to help a person with a personality disorder it would be the same type of medication and the same type of therapy regardless of which disorder is diagnosed.

So I tend to generalize personality disorders ...But that's just me, my opinion!

Can't give you a link typed it is a culmination out of about 7 different abnormal/criminal psychology books for diagnosis criteria.

As for the meds all being the same, they are not and there are many different methods for treating each one depending on the age, the severity and what symptoms show.

Unfortunately many psychologists and psychiatrists tend to group them together also and many people do not get the help they need.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Me too.. BUT- the Borderline issues I see in her cancel out and explain (for me at least) some of what appears to be narcisstic. I don't know how to explain this in words so I will try my best..

Some of what looks like narcissism in Casey seems to me an act to cover up the needy, lonely, aching, empty borderline feelings.

They are ALL also typical of an addict. The behaviors, and personality disorders can stem from addiction and manifest just as real as someone who has had them all their life. That is why she needs a full psychiatric, drug abuse, and social work up which I doubt she will get. All LE wants to prove is if she knows right from wrong.

 

[bookworm474]

What all is involved with the emotional cognitive abilities or lack there of that effects motivation and developmental mile stones? If she had no concept of true self discipline then she isn't going to be able to achieve in school up to her abilities(whatever they were). Could she have a disorder or disorders never identified that kept her from being capable of overcoming what she lacked? What is education if it isn't geared to the individual who Lacks something---needs to be taught that something. If she resisted, then why----Is it in her or in the environment that forced a conditioning to be the Narcissistic she became????