WKMG - Homicide Charges Shortly, Grand Jury next week **MERGED THREADS** #2

[Gma Kat]

She bought the undies with stolen money too.

fork'em over baby!

 

[softsoul]

fork'em over baby!

You're cruel gma...cruel. :blowkiss:

 

[Gma Kat]

Sociopaths are considered to have a personality disorder (antisocial), not mental illness. They are on Axis II with mental retardation due to the pervasiveness of symptoms and the fact there is no known effective treatment or "cure". I wasn't completely kidding when I said Casey is beyond help. Insanity is a legal, not medical, term. However, she would never meet those standards as I understand them.

That is very interesting! I think this case is going to showcase that even people who look normal like KCA can be cold blooded criminals.....allegedly...oops

 

[Brini]

Does anyone think that LE is putting together a DNA profile basedon the A family and the hair in the trunk? A determination that it could only be Caylee's? My DNA knowledge is hurting - anyone? Could LA be afraid that he has DNA in a location that ties him to Caylee's disappearance? Anyone? Am I barking up a silly tree here?

I think they got mitochondial DNA and proved that the body in the trunk was Caylee's (given that she's the only one with that mtDNA who is missing).

I think they also found Caylee's hair with the death ring.

But, I think LE wants to run every DNA test there is, just to have al the ammo.

 

[Broderick]

That is very interesting! I think this case is going to showcase that even people who look normal like KCA can be cold blooded criminals.....allegedly...oops

What caused her spiral into sociopathic behavior?

 

[Brini]

That is very interesting! I think this case is going to showcase that even people who look normal like KCA can be cold blooded criminals.....allegedly...oops

Ted Bundy looked good!

 

[Janis396]

What caused her spiral into sociopathic behavior?

Hormones. Usually this behavior begins in the teens.

 

[Brini]

What caused her spiral into sociopathic behavior?

She may have been born that way. There's a lot of controversy re: whether it's nature or nurture. It tends to show up in early childhood, but isn't diagnosed until age 18.

Lately, it looks like the argument is leaning toward nature. Meaning that sociopaths may be born without the ability to feel anything but self-interest.

Me? I can't make up my mind.

 

[gardenhart]

Sociopaths are considered to have a personality disorder (antisocial), not mental illness. They are on Axis II with mental retardation due to the pervasiveness of symptoms and the fact there is no known effective treatment or "cure". I wasn't completely kidding when I said Casey is beyond help. Insanity is a legal, not medical, term. However, she would never meet those standards as I understand them.

\\

You know, I keep hearing that therapist on NG claim that a sociopath doesn't have a mental illness but a personality disorder. Where in the heck is she getting that from? I've never heard anyone claim that personality disorders aren't mental illnesses.

I wish NG would replace all these therapists with a qualified psychiatrist. Anyway, I'm copying this from wikipedia. Bolding is mine.

"Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture. The recognition and understanding of mental disorders have changed over time and across cultures. Definitions, assessments, and classifications of mental disorders can vary, but guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals are widely accepted by mental health professionals. Categories of diagnoses in these schemes may include dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, and many other categories."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

From an online medical dictionary:

mental illness
A broadly inclusive term, generally denoting one or all of the following: 1) a disease of the brain, with predominant behavioural symptoms, as in paresis or acute alcoholism; 2) a disease of the "mind" or personality, evidenced by abnormal behaviour, as in hysteria or schizophrenia; also called mental or emotional disease, disturbance, or disorder, or behaviour disorder, any psychiatric illness listed in Current Medical Information and Terminology of the American Medical Association or in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association.

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?mental+illness

 

[Brini]

Hormones. Usually this behavior begins in the teens.

Earlier. Hormones can bring it out, though. It often improves in middle-late age. NOT meaning that sociopaths learn how to feel, in middle-age. They just often do less damage.

The worst are the little boys who show the MacDonald Triad-- animal torture, fire-setting, and late bed wetting.

 

[Broderick]

Hormones. Usually this behavior begins in the teens.

Or something traumatic happens in life whereby you have to harbor deep secrets that you can't tell a soul about.

jmo.

 

[Broderick]

She may have been born that way. There's a lot of controversy re: whether it's nature or nurture. It tends to show up in early childhood, but isn't diagnosed until age 18.

Lately, it looks like the argument is leaning toward nature. Meaning that sociopaths may be born without the ability to feel anything but self-interest.

Me? I can't make up my mind.

We have no indication even in speculation that anything was wrong about Casey in her youth. We have heard she was shy, a good student, and quiet up until she dropped out of school. We have heard that she was 7 months pregnant but Cindy, George, and Casey denied she was even pregnant at Cindy's brothers wedding. What happened when she lost that job at Universal that she abandoned? Why does LP think LE knows who the father is but we get numerous stories and obfuscation from the family on who the father is? Why did LP say we would be shocked when the DNA evidence came forth in leaks? Why did Cindy and George coddle her as she lied and thieved? Why was Lee the one that could get her to talk when necessary? Why after the 3rd 911 call did the family demeanor change and why did Lee want to stop Cindy from making that call? Why has her best friend Annie's interviews not been released? Questions unanswered at this point.

 

[Brini]

\\

You know, I keep hearing that therapist on NG claim that a sociopath doesn't have a mental illness but a personality disorder. Where in the heck is she getting that from? I've never heard anyone claim that personality disorders aren't mental illnesses.

I wish NG would replace all these therapists with a qualified psychiatrist. Anyway, I'm copying this from wikipedia. Bolding is mine.

"Mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture. The recognition and understanding of mental disorders have changed over time and across cultures. Definitions, assessments, and classifications of mental disorders can vary, but guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals are widely accepted by mental health professionals. Categories of diagnoses in these schemes may include dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, and many other categories."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

From an online medical dictionary:

mental illness
A broadly inclusive term, generally denoting one or all of the following: 1) a disease of the brain, with predominant behavioural symptoms, as in paresis or acute alcoholism; 2) a disease of the "mind" or personality, evidenced by abnormal behaviour, as in hysteria or schizophrenia; also called mental or emotional disease, disturbance, or disorder, or behaviour disorder, any psychiatric illness listed in Current Medical Information and Terminology of the American Medical Association or in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association.

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?mental+illness

That's a very broad definition, though.

The personality disorders are often seen as deficiencies, rather than diseases. That's why it's under Axis II, along with mental retardation, rather than Axis I with the mental illnesses.

That's why there is no treament that works. Psycholses, bipolar disorders, clinical depression can all be treated with meds. The Axis IIs can't, because they are deficiencies, rather than diseases.

Some of the brighter and better adapting personality disordered people end up very effective CEOs or politicians. They are all brain, no heart.

 

[Janis396]

We have no indication even in speculation that anything was wrong about Casey in her youth. We have heard she was shy, a good student, and quiet up until she dropped out of school. We have heard that she was 7 months pregnant but Cindy, George, and Casey denied she was even pregnant at Cindy's brothers wedding. What happened when she lost that job at Universal that she abandoned? Why does LP think LE knows who the father is but we get numerous stories and obfuscation from the family on who the father is? Why did LP say we would be shocked when the DNA evidence came forth in leaks? Why did Cindy and George coddle her as she lied and thieved? Why was Lee the one that could get her to talk when necessary? Why after the 3rd 911 call did the family demeanor change and why did Lee want to stop Cindy from making that call? Why has her best friend Annie's interviews not been released? Questions unanswered at this point.

I think you just said why without saying why And I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Brini]

Or something traumatic happens in life whereby you have to harbor deep secrets that you can't tell a soul about.

jmo.

I think it's more complicated than that. A nature-nurture combination, I think.

I had a lot of sociopaths on my caseload, when I did that kind of work. One of the worst was a 13-yearn old serial rapist.

 

[Brini]

We have no indication even in speculation that anything was wrong about Casey in her youth. We have heard she was shy, a good student, and quiet up until she dropped out of school. We have heard that she was 7 months pregnant but Cindy, George, and Casey denied she was even pregnant at Cindy's brothers wedding. What happened when she lost that job at Universal that she abandoned? Why does LP think LE knows who the father is but we get numerous stories and obfuscation from the family on who the father is? Why did LP say we would be shocked when the DNA evidence came forth in leaks? Why did Cindy and George coddle her as she lied and thieved? Why was Lee the one that could get her to talk when necessary? Why after the 3rd 911 call did the family demeanor change and why did Lee want to stop Cindy from making that call? Why has her best friend Annie's interviews not been released? Questions unanswered at this point.

Well, Ryan has known her from age five or six. He said she has lied and manipulated all her life. From early childhood.

 

[Muzikman]

IMO if KC had a mental disorder it would have been revealed in the psych. eval. she underwent prior to her initial release from jail. The dr. involved in that would have made a recommendation for medication/counseling/ monitoring by a mental health professional with updates to the court as to her mental state. As far as I can tell by her stipulations for release- she can not come and go as she pleases and she is not supposed to wear revealing clothing and she has to meet with someone on the home monitoring team once a week. Did I miss anything?

It was mentioned on one of the local stations today (can't remember which) that an FBI psychological profiler who has evaluated Casey will testify at the Grand Jury.

Not sure if that meant he was the one that did the psych eval on her, or has just studied the case.

 

[gardenhart]

That's a very broad definition, though.

The personality disorders are often seen as deficiencies, rather than diseases.

That's why there is no treament that works. Psycholses, bipolar disorders, clinical depression can all be treated with meds. The Axis IIs can't, because they are deficiencies, rather than diseases.

Some of the brighter and better adapting personality disordered people end up very effective CEOs or politicians. They are all brain, no heart.

So? I think mental illness is meant to be a very broad term. I could post a few dozen other definitions but not one single one I found excluded personality disorders, or even conditions that aren't treatable.

Nor does that make any sense. If you had a physical disease that wasn't treatable, no one would say you didn't actually have a physical disease.

 

[Broderick]

Well, Ryan has known her from age five or six. He said she has lied and manipulated all her life. From early childhood.

I got to go back and read that because I missed that. I thought he said that her behavior was newer than that. I missed the childhood things.

Going to research. Again.

 

[Brini]

So? I think mental illness is meant to be a very broad term. I could post a few dozen other definitions but not one single one I found excluded personality disorders, or even conditions that aren't treatable.

Nor does that make any sense. If you had a physical disease that wasn't treatable, no one would say you didn't actually have a physical disease.

The difference is an Axis II isn't suffering from hallucinations and delusions, like the Axis Is can. A schizophrenic might do something antisocial, because s/he perceives a distorted reality. Maybe they don't even know what they are doing. There's reality testing impairment.

A personality disorder does it because they can only think of Number One. They know it's wrong, but they don't care. That's why sociopathy is not a legal defense.