Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

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Hi Lezah,
I was reading over your notes from Dr. Wecht’s testimony and I wanted to follow up on one point which I highlighted.
I thought it was ridiculous that the defense would suggest the very low neck abrasion could have been a starting point for the ligature. The autopsy report is clear that this abrasion followed the curvature of the trapezius muscle at the lower-right, back-half of the neck. The slope of this abrasion is downward and far more suggestive of some sort of vertical (toward the base of the neck) pressure.
There is nothing whatsoever in the autopsy report that suggests the ligature was ever at or below the level of the cricoid.
I would have loved to have been in court to hear Wecht dismiss this desperate attempt to explain the cricoid fracture.

I do understand the concern regarding the cricoid. It is exceedingly rare for it to fracture in a suicidal hanging scenario.
The following is from… Fracture of the Cricoid as a Potential Pointer to Homicide
A 6-Year Retrospective Study of Neck Structures Fractures in Hanging Victims
Anny Godin, BSc, Celia Kremer, MSc, and Anny Sauvageau, MD, MSc.


The cricoid cartilage was intact in all suicidal and accidental hangings in the present study. This is in keeping with the literature: only one case of cricoid fracture can be found in suicidal or accidental hangings in the English literature. This represents only one case of cricoid cartilage in over 2700 cases. Unfortunately, there are no further details on this alleged suicidal hanging with cricoid fracture.
…
Fracture of cricoid cartilage is therefore highly exceptional in suicidal hangings. In homicidal hanging on the other hand, I ease out of 4 presented with a cricoid fracture in this study. However, the small number of homicidal hanging renders the comparison difficult. To palliate this problem, homicidal no- hanging strangulation were used for the comparison: an incidence of cricoid fracture of 14% (7/52) was demonstrated. This incidence is in accordance with the literature: the incidence of cricoid’s fractures in homicidal strangulation varies between 5% and 20%.
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Hi Cynic!

Yes, I thought it was rather an odd suggestion at the time too ( the defense attorney suggested this Mark was a ‘rope burn’ and Dr W said that it could possibly be a rope burn’. (He had put a photo on the screen and used the pointer to show it. The image shown was of RZ autopsy and the picture he used is actually in an exhibit in the filings (I beleive I had seen this photo he used previously - it is in the defenses motion to disallow the testimony of Dr W, if you have access to it - labeled EXHIBIT 22 - in ROA 886 ( face down hair lifted and the mark is visible on the left upper shoulder area - it was a zoomed in aspect of this exhibit photo I believe ))

Dr W was absolutely adamant that it could not have been caused during the actual ‘ hanging’ as the position of the mark was completely contradictory to the rope alignment on the throat - and it was ‘not possible’ to have been caused during the hanging in his opinion. The attorney attempted several times to make the same suggestion ( in different ways) and each time it was dismissed by Dr W.

Hope that helps? ( BIM I’m paraphrazing to the best of my recollection)

PS your illustations are really great!

Edited to add - I read around 50 legal forensic papers on suicidal and homicidal hangings over the last few weeks and I agree with your opinion that the injuries are certainly not consistent with the circumstances of how RZ died, re the cricoid and several other aspects. I still believe she never went over that balcony....( I think we were reading the same literature!)

PPS I believe that the photo he used was different to the injury you illustrated / highlighted in the illustration, your illustration is a different mark I understand. This one the attorney showed was on the left shoulder I recall. I wish I could post the photo for you, but I can’t seem to do it!
 
Illustration ( FAO Cynic)

left trapezius muscle back illustration

https://goo.gl/images/eY2QFo

Cynic, on this illustration the mark referred to is located roughly where the first, top two ‘x’ marks appear in this illustration ( the first appears on the edge of the trapezius at the highest point on the left side, and the one to the right of it).

The mark appears to be an almost vertical mark running along ( and almost ‘over’) the shoulder. It has an uneven edge, it is deep red/ purple, on the photograph. I posted the exhibit number and ROA earlier. I hope that helps. Sorry I can’t figure out the photo posting)

PS - if you raise your right arm up straight, then grasp the ball of your shoulder with your right hand - your thumb should fall into a ‘pocket’, or groove of your shoulder. That’s where the starting point of the mark is on the photo - extending downwards in a vertical direction...
 
Something else that's been bothering me. Bound feet does not support a theory of suicide - it only supports a theory of someone preventing Rebecca from running away.

I think it's easy to get sidetracked by bindings as one whole and not see the issue of her feet being bound together as a separate factor having only a suspicious explanation. It's not going to help her get over the balcony, it's going to hinder her being able to lift herself. It's not going to help her get to the balcony from the room. It's not going to stop her if she changes her mind, like her hands could. There is just no accounting for it, other than she was murdered (and hog tied).

Anyone who supports the suicide theory must be able to explain why she bound her feet too.

I sometimes wonder if she was hog-tied so that she could be carried somewhere by the one piece of rope. It would mean the person carrying her wouldn't leave any clothing fibers on her body.
 
Something else that's been bothering me. Bound feet does not support a theory of suicide - it only supports a theory of someone preventing Rebecca from running away.

I think it's easy to get sidetracked by bindings as one whole and not see the issue of her feet being bound together as a separate factor having only a suspicious explanation. It's not going to help her get over the balcony, it's going to hinder her being able to lift herself. It's not going to help her get to the balcony from the room. It's not going to stop her if she changes her mind, like her hands could. There is just no accounting for it, other than she was murdered (and hog tied).

Anyone who supports the suicide theory must be able to explain why she bound her feet too.

I sometimes wonder if she was hog-tied so that she could be carried somewhere by the one piece of rope. It would mean the person carrying her wouldn't leave any clothing fibers on her body.

That's a good point. The bound feet would definitely hinder her ability to fling herself over the balcony. One has to ask, if Rebecca wanted to kill herself, why would she do it in such a bizarre and degrading manner on the Shacknai property, which only brought more unwanted attention into their lives while grieving for Max?

But if you are going to kill someone, how many methods are there that can be faked as a suicide? I go back to what I feel was the motive for this murder-- PURE RAGE over Max. Can't leave a bullet with a missing gun. Can't have signs of an intruder. Can't leave signs of a struggle.

Rebecca had no defensive wounds which tell me she was taken by surprise and incapacitated (the head blows, being at gun point maybe) then bound so there was no escaping. Maybe she was strangled to stop the screams. Then I believe the instruction was given to throw her over the balcony, like she did to Max. Yes, I believe the two deaths are related. However I don't believe Rebecca had anything to do with Max's fall, despite the fact that certain people thought she did and that's why she was killed.

It's just such a creepy coincidence. Two people killed in the Spreckles Mansion days apart, both going over balconys.
 
That's a good point. The bound feet would definitely hinder her ability to fling herself over the balcony. One has to ask, if Rebecca wanted to kill herself, why would she do it in such a bizarre and degrading manner on the Shacknai property, which only brought more unwanted attention into their lives while grieving for Max?

But if you are going to kill someone, how many methods are there that can be faked as a suicide? I go back to what I feel was the motive for this murder-- PURE RAGE over Max. Can't leave a bullet with a missing gun. Can't have signs of an intruder. Can't leave signs of a struggle.

Rebecca had no defensive wounds which tell me she was taken by surprise and incapacitated (the head blows, being at gun point maybe) then bound so there was no escaping. Maybe she was strangled to stop the screams. Then I believe the instruction was given to throw her over the balcony, like she did to Max. Yes, I believe the two deaths are related. However I don't believe Rebecca had anything to do with Max's fall, despite the fact that certain people thought she did and that's why she was killed.

It's just such a creepy coincidence. Two people killed in the Spreckles Mansion days apart, both going over balconys.

BBM: I never thought that was a coincidence. I have always thought that Rebecca was angrily hurled over the balcony as punishment for Max having gone over the interior balcony on her watch.
 
Something else that's been bothering me. Bound feet does not support a theory of suicide - it only supports a theory of someone preventing Rebecca from running away.

I think it's easy to get sidetracked by bindings as one whole and not see the issue of her feet being bound together as a separate factor having only a suspicious explanation. It's not going to help her get over the balcony, it's going to hinder her being able to lift herself. It's not going to help her get to the balcony from the room. It's not going to stop her if she changes her mind, like her hands could. There is just no accounting for it, other than she was murdered (and hog tied).

Anyone who supports the suicide theory must be able to explain why she bound her feet too.

I sometimes wonder if she was hog-tied so that she could be carried somewhere by the one piece of rope. It would mean the person carrying her wouldn't leave any clothing fibers on her body.

Great point - I think we (or at least I) do tend to look at all the bindings as one whole. Coincidentally, I was watching some snippets of the 20/20 episode on a link someone provided, and an investigator and the female 20/20 interviewer were standing at a balcony the approximate size of the one at Spreckels. The interviewer's hands were tied behind her back, but her ankles weren't bound, and they were discussing how RZ could've moved to and over the railing. The interviewer was taking small steps, but bigger steps than she would've been able to if her ankles were bound as Rebecca's were. That little demo really drew my thoughts to RZ's bound ankles and how those bindings would so clearly increase the level of difficulty of getting to and over the railing in the manner SDSO claimed she did.

I'm also suddenly confused on something: Were RZ's wrists bound with her arms situated at her lower back (in the same position LE handcuff people) or were her arms over her head with her wrists bound? (I confess I haven't closely viewed any pics of her after death because I find them terribly sad and disturbing.)
 
BBM: I never thought that was a coincidence. I have always thought that Rebecca was angrily hurled over the balcony as punishment for Max having gone over the interior balcony on her watch.

I'm confused on this point as well. Didn't Dr. W and perhaps others opine that the injuries to her neck weren't sufficient to have been dropped (or hurled) for 9'2"?

For some reason I thought it was determined she'd either been lowered down, or hoisted up from the ground, but that she never actually dropped with the full force of her body weight against the rope around her neck.
 
Great point - I think we (or at least I) do tend to look at all the bindings as one whole. Coincidentally, I was watching some snippets of the 20/20 episode on a link someone provided, and an investigator and the female 20/20 interviewer were standing at a balcony the approximate size of the one at Spreckels. The interviewer's hands were tied behind her back, but her ankles weren't bound, and they were discussing how RZ could've moved to and over the railing. The interviewer was taking small steps, but bigger steps than she would've been able to if her ankles were bound as Rebecca's were. That little demo really drew my thoughts to RZ's bound ankles and how those bindings would so clearly increase the level of difficulty of getting to and over the railing in the manner SDSO claimed she did.

I'm also suddenly confused on something: Were RZ's wrists bound with her arms situated at her lower back (in the same position LE handcuff people) or were her arms over her head with her wrists bound? (I confess I haven't closely viewed any pics of her after death because I find them terribly sad and disturbing.)
Her wrists were bound behind her lower back.
 
Anyone hear how it is going with Adam on the stand?
 
Can someone give us (me) a quick update as to how you think it is going with Adam on the stand? I have been busy with other things and just started listening.

Thanks,
Tricia
 
I must've missed Mr. Greer, dang it. Sounds like the defense is questioning him now (11:45 am west coast time).
 
Can someone give us (me) a quick update as to how you think it is going with Adam on the stand? I have been busy with other things and just started listening.

Thanks,
Tricia

No idea how he did under questioning by Mr. Greer, but he's very calm, cool, and collected right now.
 
Update from Rececca’s Page....

I just wanted to briefly update everyone on upcoming week. Monday 3/19/18 @915 am, Adam Schacknai is called to the stand by Mr Greer. Please pray for the truth. The defendant’s team started their testimony last week on Wednesday. They wanted more time to prep Adam Schacknai. After Monday all testimonies are from the defense side.

Thank you all for your prayers and support. You all have helped me to remind myself that there is soooo much good in humanity and God is good despite the cruelty and negativity around us everyday. We also would not be here in trial if not for all the prayers and support. God bless you!

https://www..com/rydrn-justice-for-rebecca
 
They just broke for lunch. Court resumes 1:30 this afternoon.
 
I am wondering if the main bath shower has a removable shower head (the handheld kind). I think that perhaps she was caught by surprise in the shower and perhaps the shower head was used to render her unconscious. Usually those shower heads are rounded and would have enough weight to do some damage in just a few hits. If he left her unconscious in the shower to find something to bind her hands and feet, it would explain the drops of blood left in the shower. In my opinion, a woman would not leave drops of blood if they are moving around a bit. But more likely if she was sitting in one spot for a while. I think that if the blood leaked while she was showering, the blood would have been likely washed away but it wasn’t. Also, sorry in advance for getting a little graphic but typically women will take out a tampon before a shower and immediately put one back in right after the shower. She would not be walking around without sometype of tampon or pad, especially while naked. If she was attacked in the shower she obviously wouldn’t have the opportunity to take care of that need.

I also think that she was initially bound with duct tape. I know they only found residue in one leg during the second autopsy, but it is possible that both hands and feet were bound with the tape. The residue on arms and the other leg could’ve been washed away between first autopsy and burial. The reason I think this is possible because Greer said in court that the fingerprints on the knife blade appeared as though she was trying to cut herself free. Perhaps she did cut herself free from the tape- tried to flee-neighbor heard screams for help at that time. AS them rebound her using the heavy duty ropes that would be extremely difficult to break free from.

All is just my opinion of course
 
No idea how he did under questioning by Mr. Greer, but he's very calm, cool, and collected right now.

From the article, here:

http://www.cbs8.com/story/37757922/mansion-wrongful-death-lawsuit-adam-shacknai-takes-the-stand

>>>snip

When asked, Adam said when he found Rebecca he believed she had hanged herself. He was later asked if he still believed "to this day" that Rebecca hung herself and Adam said he does.

Adam was asked if he called or sent a text his brother Jonah to tell him what had happened, and Adam said he did not recall. He testified that when he did speak to his brother that morning he did not tell him the manner in which Rebecca had died.

During cross-examination, Adam's lawyer opened by asking if he did anything to "participate in the death of Rebecca Zahau."

"Most certainly not," Adam said.


<<<snip

Edited to add: Updated article continues at link.
 
Llead Detective Tsuida testified last Thursday that JS told her his voicemail was to inform RZ that Max was not going to make it, and he was looking into organ donation. However, it sure seemed to me from the testimony that there were no formal or sworn statements taken from JS during the investigation and more like JS was directing SDSO.

In earlier post, somebody shared that during the Greer "Apology Press Conference," it was mentioned that JS was very vague about the alleged voicemail he left for RZ.

After re-watching the 20/20 interview touted as "JS speaks publicly for the very first time"...., I noticed that the interviewer is the one that states that JS voicemail informed RZ about the dire condition of max. Again, JS discloses nothing about the content of his alleged voicemail when he speaks and is vague again!

Question: Has Greer ever interviewed JS? I'm really curious to know.
 
Hopefully Channel 8 will put up a video of his full testimony once he's off the stand.

ETA: I mean, once his testimony is complete.
 
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