Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion

[vlpate]

BBM. This is not accurate.

Menstrual bleeding is not of an arterial or venous source, therefore the appearance of the endometrium shedding would not be altered after death/ heartbeat cessation. Menstrual bleeding is shedding of the buildup of the endometrium, and is largely tissue fragments, cellular debris, etc.

Menstrual bleeding is definitely not dependent on blood pressure or mean arterial pressure. However, post partum bleeding, such as in PP hemorrhage, IS dependant on MAP.

If she were on her menstrual period, in the shedding phase, the endometrium should reflect that at autopsy.

** My example above referencing post partum hemorrhage/ bleeding has nothing to do with Rebecca. It's merely an example of vaginal bleeding that is affected by changes in MAP (mean arterial pressure), as opposed to vaginal bleeding from menstruation. And what is described at autopsy, and in the blood droplet evidence, is far more than "spotting" from the IUD.

I was going by what I read...admittedly it was more detailed than "it stops", but the rest is pretty tedious...hormones, contractions, etc. Hard to find much on the subject.

Curious why the ME would go much further in detailing the findings you referenced in your previous post, when the cause of death was not related to her female organs, nor was there evidence of rape. Again, just curious, all autopsies seem different depending on what the ME is looking for. JMO

 

[vlpate]

This is from an old post of mine...
The balcony is very "shallow"
What I found to be helpful in considering what may have happened in this case is to “map” out the balcony on a floor in my home.
If you do, you will find how incredibly easy it is to be "invisible" on the balcony.
Take a tape measure and measure a 24” span. 24 inches is not much. (The span from my chest wall to my fingertips is 24".
Place one foot on one end and step across. Easy isn’t it?
All a person would have to do to create the illusion of never having been on the balcony is to keep one foot inside and put the other foot into one of the numerous gaps in the railing.
There is no need, whatsoever, to set foot on the floor of the balcony at all.

Hey Cynic!
What was the exact size of the balcony, any idea? I can see what you are saying, but that doesn't answer why her footprints were there if she were hogtied? It also doesn't take into account you would be doing this balancing act with a dead weight, hogtied body in your arms that you, still balanced, manage to awkwardly toss over the balcony.

 

[K_Z]

What I should have specified was, was it determined if her uterine wall was shedding it's lining, therefore producing mensural blood flow, or was there just blood in her vagina? I'm not a dr, but I would think that there is a difference. Any OB sleuths?

There were 2 components to the autopsy reproductive system exam documented on the AR.

The first part is an external exam of the body. That includes the vagina and rectum, both visually, and using specula.

The second component is an "internal exam". This is not to be confused with what we typically think of as an "internal pelvic exam" with speculum. An internal exam at autopsy is a dissection and removal of internal organs. The AR doc dissected out and opened (cut open) Rebecca's uterus. That is where he found the polyp (and the IUD)-- not in the visual exam of the vagina. He described the endometrium of the uterus, seen during this open dissection of the uterus, as smooth and red/ purple. It's my contention that this description of the inside of the uterus, seen on dissection, is not consistent with a uterus that is actively shedding the lining (menstruation).

The polyp was dissected out, and described grossly (what he saw with his eyes) and apparently microscopically (what was seen with a simple microscope exam). He gave that polyp a lot of attention, and tender loving care, IMO. And kind of glossed over (IMO) some fairly important, and typical, parts of a gyn exam for a woman of childbearing years, who had died a very traumatic and criminally suspicious death in the nude. (But that's just my opinion, and I'm nobody.)

Vaginal mucosa (walls of the vagina) can be seen on speculum exam. Uterine endometrium (lining of the uterus) can't be seen from the vagina under ordinary circumstances, even with a speculum. (It can be seen during certain vaginal approach uterine surgical procedures on living humans, using specific surgical instruments and cameras-- but that's not what we're talking about here.)

Hope that helps. I know medical terminology is confusing! I forget that it's a foreign language for some folks!

 

[Betty P]

If this is repeated I apologize, I tried editing and it disappeared

Hogtied" theory questions
1. How would Rebecca stand on the balcony hogtied? Her footprints and an LE footprint were the only ones found.
2. How would AS hurl a dead body (although ME stated she was alive before going over balcony), over that railing without ever stepping onto the patio?
3. How would RZ have abrasions on the backs of her legs if they were bent in a hogtied position?
4. After he threw her up and over the balcony, did he just go to sleep for a few hours while her hogtied/naked body hang there?

I don't see how it is feasible, given the forensic evidence, that she was hogtied and dead before being thrown from an appreciative distance, over the balcony. JMO

Just my own theorizing, since we don't have all the details yet:

Keith Greer has said her actual time of death was probably around 11:30 pm or so. That left Adam some time before sunrise. He was jet lagged, on Memphis time, so he probably left her hog tied on the floor in the murder room while he napped for a few hours.

He then got up while it was still dark, realized he couldn't throw her over the balcony in that position, so cut the rope between her ankle and wrist bindings and lowered her over that way. He could have done it without leaving footprints as cynic's illustration shows. Sure, he would have been tired, but remember there was a partially empty container of Dr. Pepper in the murder room. It could have given him a little caffeine boost to get through the morning. He could have also stayed awake the whole time, too.

JMO

He could have also lowered her over while she was unconscious, left her there a while, then cut her down hours before he called 911. Greer will be explaining this in the days to come.

 

[Mica]

March 8, 2018

Parents of 6-year-old boy initially believed Rebecca Zahau saved their injured son

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-day6-story.html

 

[bourne]

Hey Cynic!
What was the exact size of the balcony, any idea? I can see what you are saying, but that doesn't answer why her footprints were there if she were hogtied? It also doesn't take into account you would be doing this balancing act with a dead weight, hogtied body in your arms that you, still balanced, manage to awkwardly toss over the balcony.

Pardon the graphics of this. It's actually easier to throw something/someone over a railing when it is hogtied. Imagine a pig hogtied. You take the rope in between that holds the pig's front and hind legs together and swing it right over the railing.

Her footprints could have been made before she was hogtied. Perhaps the murderer wanted to give the illusion she was standing on the balcony contemplating her suicide. So he planted her body with only her feet tied and hands tied behind her back on the balcony first. Then he took her back into the bedroom and hogtied her, put noose around her neck, stuff shirt down her throat, and toss her body over the railing so that she'd be dangling with noose.

The bindings, hogtie, noose, etc. need not have been done all at once.

The abrasions on her back could be from earlier time when he first found Rebecca in shower and she ran away from him. Then he dragged her across the courtyard grounds where she got her back abraded.

There was definitely premeditation involved.

Note I said 'he' but it could be a 'she'.

 

[bourne]

Just my own theorizing, since we don't have all the details yet:

Keith Greer has said her actual time of death was probably around 11:30 pm or so. That left Adam some time before sunrise. He was jet lagged, on Memphis time, so he probably left her hog tied on the floor in the murder room while he napped for a few hours.

He then got up while it was still dark, realized he couldn't throw her over the balcony in that position, so cut the rope between her ankle and wrist bindings and lowered her over that way. He could have done it without leaving footprints as cynic's illustration shows. Sure, he would have been tired, but remember there was a partially empty container of Dr. Pepper in the murder room. It could have given him a little caffeine boost to get through the morning. He could have also stayed awake the whole time, too.

JMO

He could have also lowered her over while she was unconscious, left her there a while, then cut her down hours before he called 911. Greer will be explaining this in the days to come.

He could simply have gone to sleep after hanging her.

I don't see why he (or she) could not have gone to sleep after the murder, particularly if s/he felt no remorse and was happy and content with the assault and kill, as indicative of all psychopaths.

 

[Mica]

Latest update from the page.

Day #4 of trial week#2 is over. Our DNA expert was on all afternoon. She testified that it was very odd that there was no DNA in areas like doorknobs (usually touched by multiple people) and the knives that was known to be touched at the crime scene. The likely explanation was that they were wiped or someone handling those areas or items wore gloves. She also states that the DNA of Rebecca on the ropes could have been transfer DNA while she was transferred to to Coroner or when the ropes were bagged and transferred to the lab. She also mentioned if there was DNA on items left outside including on the knife, the ropes and on Rebecca could have been degraded by elements. Rebecca was left outside by the San Diego Sheriffs Department uncovered to the world for almost 13 hours.

I am on the plane heading home, go to work tomorrow, and see my kids for the weekend until I head back to San Diego Sunday evening for trial week #3. Thank you all for rallying for Rebecca and I couldn’t have done it without all the encouraging words and prayers.

Help spread the word!

https://www..com/rydrn-justice-for-rebecca

 

[Betty P]

He could simply have gone to sleep after hanging her.

I don't see why he (or she) could not have gone to sleep after the murder, particularly if s/he felt no remorse and was happy and content with the assault and kill, as indicative of all psychopaths.

Yes, he did, It seems from patterns of livor mortis, she was laying on her back/side for some of the time after she passed. Greer will clarify, I'm sure.

 

[coastal]

Rebecca Zahau Trial : Week 1 | San Diego Union-Tribune

The San Diego Union-Tribune

[video=YouTube;vr9gYRCsCsY]https://youtu.be/vr9gYRCsCsY[/video]

Thank you for the link, Lash. Did you notice that they have the door? The entire door, message intact, was in the courtroom! We were told that door had been repainted, returned to Jonah Shacknai, and reinstalled, do you remember? Now why in the round blue world would somebody want us to believe those things, Lash, if the opposite were true, and it is? Who are these people???

Lash, I think my head is going to explode.

 

[bourne]

March 8, 2018

Parents of 6-year-old boy initially believed Rebecca Zahau saved their injured son

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-day6-story.html

The fact that Jonah told Dina "you should get down on your knees and thank Becky for saving Max's life" must have been like jonah twisting a knife into Dina's heart. I don’t know about anyone else but this is synonymous with the painted message on door “She saved him. Can you save her”. The once cryptic message suddenly makes perfect sense.

 

[nanwv]

Thank you Mica http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...ay6-story.html

"She ran downstairs and saw Zahau kneeling on the floor, with Max lying with his head in her lap, unconscious. A crystal chandelier that had been hanging above, in the foyer, was broken on the floor. The boy's scooter lay nearby and their pet dog, Ocean, was running around."

"Dina Shacknai, in her deposition, said her ex-husband told her the boy had suffered a heart attack and fell over the second-floor banister."
How hard would it have been for 20/20 to get this straight????

"He is expected to testify next week".
Will be interesting to compare AS's polygraph performance to this one.


Can't stop wondering, how could all these players be this incompetent and silent or "puppetmastered" so fast and for this long.

I'm with you Coastal "who are these people".

 

[cynic]

Hey Cynic!
What was the exact size of the balcony, any idea? I can see what you are saying, but that doesn't answer why her footprints were there if she were hogtied? It also doesn't take into account you would be doing this balancing act with a dead weight, hogtied body in your arms that you, still balanced, manage to awkwardly toss over the balcony.

Hi Vipate...
From what I’ve read it looks as if Bourne and Betty have answered most of your questions.
As to the dimensions of the balcony, they are as I’ve outlined below.
The entire balcony structure height is 38” and this includes the approximately 2” of base which is comprised of the floor and subfloor grid. The height of the railing alone, is 36.”
The balcony floor is 24 inches deep by 70 inches wide. The rail is 1” wide giving an overall balcony dimension of 25 inches deep by 72 inches wide.

 

[Lezah]

Because Rebecca was hogtied and Greer proved it in court.

Shout out to Lezah for asking that question.

Here is about a 22-minute interview with Keith Greer from late last night.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/triciag/keith-greer-short-interview-3-7-18

Thanks so much Tricia for this feedback and for the great new interview with Mr Greer.
Just to say, it’s all truly a team effort, and the whole WS community are again being recognized for all the fantastic and dedicated members there are here. I’m very proud to be part of the team.

It’s bitter sweet that we got it right. Bitter for poor Rebecas suffering, but sweet in that this evidence makes such a powerful explanation of why death at her own hands was impossible.

 

[Imp]

There was menstrual blood inside her vagina. There was no evidence of vaginal trauma. This is in the autopsy report.

I think at this point it's best to view everything that came out of the "death investigation," including the autopsy, as not necessarily the truth.

 

[Betty P]

Thanks so much Tricia for this feedback and for the great new interview with Mr Greer.
Just to say, it’s all truly a team effort, and the whole WS community are again being recognized for all the fantastic and dedicated members there are here. I’m very proud to be part of the team.

It’s bitter sweet that we got it right. Bitter for poor Rebecas suffering, but sweet in that this evidence makes such a powerful explanation of why death at her own hands was impossible.

Bittersweet is a good way of describing it. It's one of those theories you don't really want to be validated. Makes me want to cry.

 

[Imp]

Thank you for the link, Lash. Did you notice that they have the door? The entire door, message intact, was in the courtroom! We were told that door had been repainted, returned to Jonah Shacknai, and reinstalled, do you remember? Now why in the round blue world would somebody want us to believe those things, Lash, if the opposite were true, and it is? Who are these people???

Lash, I think my head is going to explode.

BBM. They are supposed to be the people who become the voice for dead victims and help bring criminals to justice. They are definitely people I would never want in charge of an investigation into a loved one's violent death.

 

[Inparadise]

The message on the door: Jonah used to tell Dina that she saved him from a terrible marriage. Interestingly, he also told Rebecca the very same thing. IMO, that message is aimed at Jonah, and perhaps has multiple meanings. The question is, who wrote it?

 

[Lezah]

BBM. This is not accurate.

Menstrual bleeding is not of an arterial or venous source, therefore the appearance of the endometrium shedding would not be altered after death/ heartbeat cessation. Menstrual bleeding is shedding of the buildup of the endometrium, and is largely tissue fragments, cellular debris, etc.

Menstrual bleeding is definitely not dependent on blood pressure or mean arterial pressure. However, post partum bleeding, such as in PP hemorrhage, IS dependant on MAP.

If she were on her menstrual period, in the shedding phase, the endometrium should reflect that at autopsy.

** My example above referencing post partum hemorrhage/ bleeding has nothing to do with Rebecca. It's merely an example of vaginal bleeding that is affected by changes in MAP (mean arterial pressure), as opposed to vaginal bleeding from menstruation. And what is described at autopsy, and in the blood droplet evidence, is far more than "spotting" from the IUD.

I was in court all day today and saw the testimony of the DNA expert, and the knife that was identified / suggested as the weapon of sexual assault was discussed. It was apparently swabbed for analysis on all sides of the handle, and only RZ’s DNA was found.

I noticed from a separate court filing that it was noted the the knife handle was coated with blood on all four sides, several inches up along the handle. It was also noted in the filing that the only area capable of covering the knife handle with blood to this extent was in RZ vagina. The DNA expert did not offer any evidence to say if it was actually menstrual blood, and unfortunately neither did the court filing.

** edited to add - Also noted was the suggestion that the ‘stripe’ of blood found on RZ inner thigh was blood transfer from the handle of the knife.

 

[Lezah]

In the trial today we watched an almost two hour deposition from Dina Shacknai. She mentioned AS was a ‘writer’. Apparently he was often sending examples of his writing to Dina, who said, in her opinion’ he was very good’. She said he wrote in the style of Augusten Burroughs ( in fact she used the example of ‘running with scissors’ as an indication of the type of genre)

It made me think immediately of writing ...in the third person...