17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

[rotterdam]

Have you seen the link on the first page about TM Punching his bus driver ,I believe it was a day or two before this happened IMO That is a violent action and shows TM was very capable of attacking GZ.Also about the jewelry found on TM that was sent to Dade county police I really wish we could find out exactly where it came from.IMO GZ did see what he reported.No one should have ended up
dead but once attacked GZ had the right IMO to save his own life.If he feared for his safety he would have called 911 IMO.

ETA Link

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline...erge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html

"With a single punch," the Orlando Sentinel, citing police sources, reported Monday, "Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer ... climbed on top of [him] and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered."

Wonder if they took a picture of the bloody side walk. Wait, it was raining ,how convenient.

 

[m00c0w]

And I would hate to think that they would even consider doing oversight and looking into this case if a preliminary look at the case showed a thorough investigation where everything was handled as it should be and no problems with any of the methods or evidence or lack of evidence collected before a determination was made.

The department requested the DOJ to come in, along with some legislative representatives, iirc. Kind of in the same notion that being arrested does not automatically mean guilt, obtaining DOJ oversight does not automatically mean the investigation was conducted improperly.

 

[claudicici]

So you believe that Zimmerman deserved to die because he was following someone?

no,but in that case the "stand your ground law" would apply.I do not understand how it could possibly apply here.
I don't like this law.It is clear to me that GZ was following Trayvon.It's from GZ's own words that make it clear he was following him.
IF an armed black teenager followed a white grown unarmed man because he thought the man looked suspicious and ended up shooting the man we would not be having this discussion.

 

[LC446]

So you feel that because Zimmerman was following Martin for a short period of time, he deserved to be potentially beaten to death? We have several posters on here that talk about the gravity of head injuries, but he would have been remiss in defending himself if this really was the case?

Zimmerman "pursued" Trayvon. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. He did so even after being told by the dispatcher that it was not needed. He even said...they always get away.

Ok, so now we have Zimmerman pursing Trayvon, who is lawfully in a place and is concerned that someone is following him as he stated to his girlfriend on the phone.

Does the "stand your ground" law now apply to Trayvon? It can't be both ways. You say just because he followed him a short ways, doesn't mean he deserved to be beaten to death. Well of course not, but if he pursued Trayvon, confronted him and became aggressive and he got beaten to death because Trayvon was in fear of his life then Trayvon was simply defending himself.

And guess what? Trayvon would be in jail, awaiting his day in court to apply this defense..."stand your ground."

A defense to prosecution means exactly that...a defense to PROSECUTION....not arrest. A defense to prosecution is to be presented after charges are filed, not in lieu of.

 

[grammieto5]

WOW! so much being said/written, and still the only fact known is a 17 year old is dead, ( how very sad that is) I'm waiting for Trayvon's girl friend to speak with the grand jury, I believe she will speak the truth.

 

[Sensei]

LC446 This deserves more than a thank you button it truly deserves repeating



A defense to prosecution means exactly that...a defense to PROSECUTION....not arrest. A defense to prosecution is to be presented after charges are filed, not in lieu of.

 

[m00c0w]

no,but in that case the "stand your ground law" would apply.I do not understand how it could possibly apply here.
I don't like this law.It is clear to me that GZ was following Trayvon.It's from GZ's own words that make it clear he was following him.
IF an armed black teenager followed a white grown unarmed man because he thought the man looked suspicious and ended up shooting the man we would not be having this discussion.

You make a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions in this post.

A black man killed a white man in front of his daughter, and he was not arrested until probable cause was established that it was an unlawful use of force. There was a timespan difference, but only because in that instance, they had several witnesses that saw the entire event from start to finish. That does not exist in this case, so it takes a little bit more of an investigation to obtain probable cause.

As for the stand your ground law... You say you don't like it, and then you say that it doesn't apply here. I'm not sure why you would dislike the law if you believe it applies in this case. The police/prosecution have the free will to determine what constitutes probable cause and what does not. That is in no way the fault of the law.

 

[rotterdam]

No, actually, when it fits their purpose, only a narcotics detective interviewed GZ. I see it in the media as well. It is thrown in as an element of the perceived incompetency of the investigation.

He could have been interviewed by multiple investigators with the narc being the initial one. We just do not know.

 

[MarthaM]

My impressions of this case are:

Zimmerman was a cop-wannabe who saw danger lurking around every corner; he seems to have been on a mission to control what went on in his neighborhood. That need for control was so important to him that he was willing (and even eager) to disregard a dispatcher's advice and basic common sense to escalate a non-threatening situation into one in which he ended up killing an unarmed teenager.

Martin's background (whatever that turns out to be) is irrelevant to me. It has nothing to do with anything. The only thing that matters is that a citizen made the decision to shoot and kill him. This is not acceptable in a civilized country. If you chase someone (a really poor choice to start with) and he tries to fight you off, you simply do not pull a gun and shoot to kill. You back off, or you defend yourself with your own fists, or you use your legs to leave and wait for LE to get there--especially when you know they're on their way because you yourself have already called them.

Also, I think the protests are very valuable and necessary. I hope they continue, because they're about more than just this one young man. They're about something far bigger than that.

And I would never want to live anywhere near George Zimmerman.

 

[m00c0w]

Zimmerman "pursued" Trayvon. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. He did so even after being told by the dispatcher that it was not needed. He even said...they always get away.

Ok, so now we have Zimmerman pursing Trayvon, who is lawfully in a place and is concerned that someone is following him as he stated to his girlfriend on the phone.

Does the "stand your ground" law now apply to Trayvon? It can't be both ways. You say just because he followed him a short ways, doesn't mean he deserved to be beaten to death. Well of course not, but if he pursued Trayvon, confronted him and became aggressive and he got beaten to death because Trayvon was in fear of his life then Trayvon was simply defending himself.

And guess what? Trayvon would be in jail, awaiting his day in court to apply this defense..."stand your ground."

A defense to prosecution means exactly that...a defense to PROSECUTION....not arrest. A defense to prosecution is to be presented after charges are filed, not in lieu of.

Except in the state of Florida, as with other SYG states, it is also protection from arrest. It is not just a defense from prosecution. Whether the police are abusing this is another matter altogether. The fact is, it's more than a "defense of PROSECUTION" no matter how many times you or anyone else say otherwise.

 

[mikeysmommom]

And, IMO, that is what happened. The school does not have the right to involve another student in this case. They took no other action with TM wouldn't that be all they are obligated to release. jmo

If it was stolen goods then maybe he was looking to rob the houses so IMO it does matter.Also the school most certainly IMO have the right to ask if the gold was his but they could not because TM would not say who the friend was.IMO Police should have been called.No they sent pictures to Dade county Police ,what happened to the Gold and silver jewelry someone owned it.Maybe Dade County was not where it was stolen from.JMO Suspending for graffiti and nothing done about the jewelry does not make sense to me.He also struck a School bus driver according to the link posted on page 2, Maybe if that would have been handled the right way by police being ,parents notified maybe TM if he did not get another pass would have not attacked GZ as per witness reports and GZ own statement.In my school police would have been called on all 3 times.All IMO.

 

[m00c0w]

LC446 This deserves more than a thank you button it truly deserves repeating



A defense to prosecution means exactly that...a defense to PROSECUTION....not arrest. A defense to prosecution is to be presented after charges are filed, not in lieu of.

Except it's factually incorrect as the law currently stands. :waitasec:

 

[Inabsentia]

Which is why I stated, several times, "if true", in my post. As we can all see, the facts are few; speculation abounds, and these mass protests and rallies are doing nothing more than working people up to a fever pitch of irrationality and high emotions.

I'm sorry, but you referred to "facts, which if true". If you claim that facts exist, than you need to be able to link to them. If they don't exist at all they aren't facts and their truth cannot be upheld or disproved.

 

[rotterdam]

There are a few things in this post that are not quite clear IMO.

IMO TM may be the victim, or may not be. If he attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman acted in self defense, TM would not be the victim. Death does not automatically make you the victim.

I also don't believe your statement that CLEARLY Trayvon didn't go after Zimmerman. We don't know that. I don't think that is clear.

I think there are a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true in this case.

No matter how you slice it, Tray is a homicide victim.

 

[Emeralgem]

O/T.. My husband died by suicide over 10 years ago...I wasn't even home when he made the decision to end his earthly existence...I found him when I returned home with my granddaughter.. Truth be known, I'm not over it yet..
I cannot imagine killing someone even IF it was/is in self defense and expecting it to be a done deal.. .. Just wondering WHY GZ felt the incident should be over and done with and others should feel the same as he does? JMHO..

 

[Yoda]

ummm, sure, but it may take a minute. That's why I said IIRC.

I thought I read that somewhere too a week or so ago but couldn't ever find it again. Just wondering if you remembered off hand where you read it.

 

[suzihawk]

“It’s raining. He’s just walking around, looking about,” Zimmerman told the dispatcher. “He’s just staring looking at all the houses.”


Some inyterpreted that to mean he was casing houses. Probably he was just lost.

I walk my neighborhood nearly every evening and I'm always 'looking about' at the houses, yards, surroundings, etc. What else was he supposed to be looking at?

 

[HiHater]

LC446 This deserves more than a thank you button it truly deserves repeating



A defense to prosecution means exactly that...a defense to PROSECUTION....not arrest. A defense to prosecution is to be presented after charges are filed, not in lieu of.

I was tempted to post this again, but I don't want to spam the board!

This is what I felt since the beginning. It seems like this case was already tried at the Sanford Police Department. They would be a jury of Zimmerman's "peers" (in his mind)!

 

[claudicici]

You make a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions in this post.

A black man killed a white man in front of his daughter, and he was not arrested until probable cause was established that it was an unlawful use of force. There was a timespan difference, but only because in that instance, they had several witnesses that saw the entire event from start to finish. That does not exist in this case, so it takes a little bit more of an investigation to obtain probable cause.

As for the stand your ground law... You say you don't like it, and then you say that it doesn't apply here. I'm not sure why you would dislike the law if you believe it applies in this case. The police/prosecution have the free will to determine what constitutes probable cause and what does not. That is in no way the fault of the law.

I dislike the law because it is abused to justify vigilante behavior.If Trayvon would have ended up killing Zimmerman I feel he could have used this law as justification as well....and that still doesn't make it right in my opinion.It is not free will that constitutes probable cause
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/probable+cause

I can't discuss the case you mention because you did not link to an article and I am not familiar with it

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I thought I read that somewhere too a week or so ago but couldn't ever find it again. Just wondering if you remembered off hand where you read it.

I read it too. I think it was the one news site focusing on black news. It was from a reporter explaining how Trayvon might have got past the gate.