2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[JBean]

OK. I am one of those types of people that could have driven and kept the truck. Everyone is different. I would not have even thought of needing to get rid of the truck because Kyron may have spent his last hours in it. Unless there was visual reminders, ie blood stain or other damage from an obvious altercation, it is not something that I would equate with Kyron ( or my child). His room, his toys, things that were personal to him would be on my list, but not the truck.

It is just the difference between people and I hate to see anyone drawing conclusions about Kaine because he is driving the truck.

 

[tlcya]

okay, so everyone's gotten their feelings out about the the truck.

How bout that motion huh?

 

[JBean]

okay, so everyone's gotten their feelings out about the the truck.

How bout that motion huh?

Nicely put and I concur. We need to get back on topic- please and thank you.

 

[tlcya]

so what does everyone think of motion? I thought it raised valid points and had the statutes to back up her arguments.

If it is the case, as I saw posted above, that Bunch, because of filing for this emergency type hearing, will have to argue his case before the judge at the hearing - what do you all think his arguments will be and will they be wellconstructed ones?

We've seen several motions on the divorce RO custody thing at this point, based on their different styles thus far, I am interested in how Mr Bunch defends his stance against this motion.

 

[kappy50]

OK. I am one of those types of people that could have driven and kept the truck. Everyone is different. I would not have even thought of needing to get rid of the truck because Kyron may have spent his last hours in it. Unless there was visual reminders, ie blood stain or other damage from an obvious altercation, it is not something that I would equate with Kyron ( or my child). His room, his toys, things that were personal to him would be on my list, but not the truck.

It is just the difference between people and I hate to see anyone drawing conclusions about Kaine because he is driving the truck.

Thx's JB... I understand what you are saying...I am am different...just MO..I personally could not drive my horse/mule/gator/mustang/truck/tricycle...anything that I thought may have had my son's last few hours in...if indeed Mr. Horman thinks that.....others may have no problem with it, just not me...JMO..but thank you!

 

[Aedrys]

I agree, tlcox. And I don't know what his arguments will be, but continually saying Terri is not going to talk or have an evaluation is not going to work at some point. Terri is going to have to give something to get something in return - she can't expect to keep saying nothing and get parenting time, even supervised.

I am very interested in Bunch's response to this. I feel like this is KH's lawyer's way of calling them out. I got the definite feeling of feathers being ruffled. Now she wants parenting time on her terms, which amounts to "trust me judge, even though I'm not telling you why other than I'm her mom. Oh, and here's this fancy expert over here to back me up"? It just sounds ridiculous to me. I don't blame Rackner or KH for this motion one bit.

There's an old saying that you get what you give. She's giving nothing, so she should get nothing. I know that's not a legal argument, but it's how I feel about it. She shouldn't get the advantage of holding all of her cards back to protect herself, but she does. Well, if she wants to sit there silently, then there should be consequences for it - including not seeing baby K. There's an innocent baby at stake here, and that should mean more to TH than CYAing herself.

Plus, I just love a well written motion like this one. I applaud Rackner for being so thorough!

 

[pufnstuf]

so what does everyone think of motion? I thought it raised valid points and had the statutes to back up her arguments.

If it is the case, as I saw posted above, that Bunch, because of filing for this emergency type hearing, will have to argue his case before the judge at the hearing - what do you all think his arguments will be and will they be wellconstructed ones?

We've seen several motions on the divorce RO custody thing at this point, based on their different styles thus far, I am interested in how Mr Bunch defends his stance against this motion.

In my opinion, since he'll put experts on the stand, but that Terri won't speak--he's planning on calling in a child psychologist or two who will testify that children benefit from the contact of two parents...

I wonder how far such a generic argument will go with the judge, considering that the person who filed for parenting time isn't even willing to speak at her own hearing.

 

[tlcya]

I agree, I don't see the judge giving visitation unless very limited in time and with eyes on at all times supervision based on Bunch's give nothing approach. He wants to argue there is no reason for her not to see her child but he wants to insist on giving no reason for the court to disbelieve the allegations in Rackner's motion. Whereas Rackner can certainly show proof that Kaine has every reason to believe the allegation that states he believes Terri was resonsible for causing harm to Kyron.

If Terri, through Bunch, wants to give nothing then how can Bunch disprove the reasonableness of leaving things exactly as they are. The judge is going to in the big picture, do what is best for Baby K. With this stonewall over here, but beg the mercy of the court in this "unusual set of circumstances" over here. I don't think Bunch's arguments are going to hold water.

 

[DreamyEye]

OK. I am one of those types of people that could have driven and kept the truck. Everyone is different. I would not have even thought of needing to get rid of the truck because Kyron may have spent his last hours in it. Unless there was visual reminders, ie blood stain or other damage from an obvious altercation, it is not something that I would equate with Kyron ( or my child). His room, his toys, things that were personal to him would be on my list, but not the truck.

It is just the difference between people and I hate to see anyone drawing conclusions about Kaine because he is driving the truck.

I don't claim to have read all of the Kryon threads, so I apologize in advance if someone else has already made this point and/or researched it. But it's possible that Kaine could not have sold the truck at any point since the RO was issued. In my state, most married people have the names of both parties on the titles of all the vehicles they own. If TH is a registered co-owner of the truck, Kaine could not have sold it on his own.

My Dad put my name on all of his vehicles after my Mom passed away. Last January he passed away. In order for me to sell his vehicles, I have to 1) have his signature on the transfer of title, or 2) attach a copy of his death certificate to the transfer of title.

I can't envision a scenario in which Kaine would be able to say to TH, after obtaining a RO against her ... 'I think you tried to have me killed, now I've taken custody of your child--you better not violate the RO I've just been granted against you ... but by the way ... will you sign this transfer of title?"

As to what I would do if I were in possession of that truck and believed that something bad might have happened to my child in it: I would park it in a locked away place as secure as I could make it and try my utmost to make do with another vehicle--with the thought that maybe someday that truck could be combed again for evidence of what happened to my kid.

Why? Because I watch Forensic Files. Every so often authorities or private parties do track down a vehicle that was used in a crime years ago ... and sometimes new evidence is found. A long shot to be sure. But if that truck were in my possession--I would do my utmost to preserve it till it could be gone through again and again--or the truth came to light.

 

[DreamyEye]

Sorry for my above post being somewhat off topic, tho I stand by what I said regarding the truck issue.

As for the motion ... I'm trying to figure out either TH's motive for filing it, or her lawyer's motive for going along with it. Since she is not willing to testify, be evaluated, etc--she and/or her lawyer must understand that it's not likely the motion will succeed. On the other hand, neither TH nor her lawyer strike me as stupid people. This has got to represent a portion of her legal expenses, even if it's just a fraction of it. My thinking is that TH, the lawyer, or both of them saw something of value to be gained from doing this--and literal success of the motion is probably not the prize they are looking for. Otherwise it would be a waste of a portion of her legal defense fund. MOO.

 

[tlcya]

Interesting DreamyEye, any thoughts on what they might be hoping to gain by this tact?

 

[pufnstuf]

Sorry for my above post being somewhat off topic, tho I stand by what I said regarding the truck issue.

As for the motion ... I'm trying to figure out either TH's motive for filing it, or her lawyer's motive for going along with it. Since she is not willing to testify, be evaluated, etc--she and/or her lawyer must understand that it's not likely the motion will succeed. On the other hand, neither TH nor her lawyer strike me as stupid people. This has got to represent a portion of her legal expenses, even if it's just a fraction of it. My thinking is that TH, the lawyer, or both of them saw something of value to be gained from doing this--and literal success of the motion is probably not the prize they are looking for. Otherwise it would be a waste of a portion of her legal defense fund. MOO.

That's a lot to think about, Dreamy.

 

[DreamyEye]

Interesting DreamyEye, any thoughts on what they might be hoping to gain by this tact?

I've seen other people posting that TH & lawyer might be trying to force Kaine's hand in terms of revealing whatever "evidence" he has against TH ... but I don't know enough about the legal process to understand whether this could be forced. I don't know--but I presume that TH's lawyer does know. I don't think he would go along with filing the motion unless he thought it was really possible to acquire whatever they are trying to acquire.

It could be something as simple as establishing a record that they have asked for certain things. TH never contested the RO and didn't show any obvious sign of yearning to see her baby up until now. That's not to say she hasn't yearned to see the baby--but she has surely created the impression of not being too broken up about it. (If I was heartsick from missing my child and terrified of being permanently separated from her, I think that sexting would be that last thing I'd want to do ... but that's just me--and every mother I know personally.)

Anyway, it's created a lot of talk and negative impressions against TH that she hasn't responded to a lot of what's gone on. So her lawyer may be trying to create a record that portrays her as a victim, or demonstrates that she has wanted to claim her rights.

A kind of example of what I mean: A lot of battered women never used to seek ROs against their abusers because the ROs were poorly enforced. Plus they were usually temporary, and the abused woman kept having to go back to court and ask for the RO again and again. So they didn't bother. Then, when the abused woman asked for protection or wanted her abuser called into account, she'd be challenged "why didn't you seek a RO?" So now abused women are usually advised "seek the RO, even if it seems pointless ... because it establishes a record that you were threatened, you were abused, you were scared for your life--and you were trying to stand up for your own rights." Then the abused woman can go into court and say "it wasn't I who failed. It was the legal system that failed."

I don't know if that makes any sense.

If I'm right, and it does have something to do with establishing a record of some kind, there should be other motions forthcoming. I think. JMO.

 

[pufnstuf]

Makes perfect sense...

That she was so heavily criticized for not seeking parenting time with the baby, so she responds to the criticism by seeking parenting time, which just might be denied, and then she can claim, "Well, I tried. Feel sorry for me."

I totally get what you're saying.

 

[JBean]

For some reason I keep thinking about the case of baby Wyatt Garcia. In a nutshell, mom had good reason to believe that her ex would harm the child, but the judge absolutely refused to listen to her and flat out told her she was a liar. She had documented everything that showed he was physically abusive and had made threats, but the Judge disregarded everything. Judge awarded him unsupervised visitation and of course he killed himself and the child.

I think of this case because even though his violent nature was well documented, it did nothing to persuade the judge. I often wonder why he thought he could even take the slightest chance that any of the mother's accusations could be true and leave the 8 mo old with the father.

I do believe that Terri wants to see the child and would even go so far as to guess that she thinks that it is in the child's best interest to see her. I think separating a child from her mother is stressful and traumatic.

But, I don't think any judge can take that chance, the risk is too huge and if it is a mistake,the cost is too high. So, as much as would like to give TH the benefit of all doubt, I don't see how it is even possible.

My bigger hope is that, unlike the case of baby Wyatt Garcia,the Judge takes all the time he needs to review any and all information and only restore contact if he feels 100% sure that the baby is safe.

As I have posted previously, regardless of Terri's guilt or innocence, this is a lose lose for the baby any way you look at it, so you just have to pick the lesser and safer of the evils.

 

[Donjeta]

Expecting Kaine to pay for supervised visitation seems rather unreasonable and unfair supposing Terri knows what happened to Kyron but then she probably doesn't care about unfair if she did it since it wasn't fair to Kyron.

I do not mean to drag the discussion back to OT so please ignore but if I thought that my son's last moments were spent in my vehicle and the crime was still unsolved I would not get rid of the vehicle, I'd keep it in the hopes that some day the forensic sciences develop something new that allows them to test the truck again and find evidence there. Like when they could go back to old evidence and solve cold cases when they found out about DNA testing.

 

[Calliope]

I don't think anything is "typical" to Kaine Horman at this point. I can't imagine the totality of betrayal he feels.

Here is a man whose little boy goes missing at school. At school! Where most of us presume our children to be safe. And then while he is trying to cope with this, LE calls him in to tell him that his WIFE most likely is behind this and...oh, yeah...she was trying to hire the Landscaper to kill you. Just four days later, that wife is sexting an old acquaintance of his from school.

It was not the neighbor down the street who came to him and told him his wife was trying to have him killed..it was the professionals investigating this case!! And the person they pointed at...was the one he most needed for comfort and solace in his grief and worry..his wife!

Yes, his wife...the woman he shielded in his arms in that first press conference...the woman I believe he was defending against Internet and media gossip.

To assume that the locals have had THEIR lives ruined...one must assume that Terri is innocent..and the professionals who have ALL THE EVIDENCE in this case are wrong. There is no basis to think LE is incorrect in suspecting Terri. The only information we have is Facebook pictures and media. If they tell Kaine differently...till I have reason to think differently...I will trust THAT.

And trusting THAT, Kaine is probably only concerned , not with "wrangling" but safeguarding the only child he still has,...Baby K. These are crimes of stealth, calculation, deception and cruelty. Teri offers NOTHING to rebut LE...but expects to be taken only at her word.

Why should Kaine have to risk his only surviving child if Terri offers no reason to doubt what LE believes? What colossal arrogance on Terri's behalf!

I doubt Kaine is thinking of much more than how to safeguard his child from the "mother" he has been advised by LE....was coldly able to dispose of another small child of his that loved her.

bbm

Not in the context of my post, regardless who is guilty of abducting Kyron.

 

[Calliope]

Above BBM...That barren savanna *smiles* must get awfully lonely... I too would opt to live in an idyllic *community* much like the one I do live in......

I don't live in a barren savanna, but I always thought that part of Oregon beautiful. I may even end up moving out that way when I retire.

 

[JSR]

Sorry for my above post being somewhat off topic, tho I stand by what I said regarding the truck issue.

As for the motion ... I'm trying to figure out either TH's motive for filing it, or her lawyer's motive for going along with it. Since she is not willing to testify, be evaluated, etc--she and/or her lawyer must understand that it's not likely the motion will succeed. On the other hand, neither TH nor her lawyer strike me as stupid people. This has got to represent a portion of her legal expenses, even if it's just a fraction of it. My thinking is that TH, the lawyer, or both of them saw something of value to be gained from doing this--and literal success of the motion is probably not the prize they are looking for. Otherwise it would be a waste of a portion of her legal defense fund. MOO.

Personally I'm of the opinion Terri doesn't give a rats about seeing her daughter. I think she filed her request because she and her criminal defense attorney want to know what information LE has on her in regards to the disappearance and murder (my opinion is that Terri killed Kyron). I don't think any Judge worth two cents is going to allow Terri visitation, even if supervised, without a mental evaluation of Terri. And Terri has refused. She wants her cake and to eat it too. Until Terri is evaluated to be fit to be in the same room with her daughter I don't think she should be allowed. It's not about what Terri wants. This isn't about her. It's about her daughter.

Added: Terri might miss her child. But I'm of the opinion she's more concerned with keeping herself out of jail. If that wasn't the case she would have first hired a family law attorney instead of a criminal defense attorney. I think Terri's priorities are pretty clear.

 

[Wendy101]

I think maybe HOuze/Terri are trying to force LE to make an early arrest.

IMO the judge needs some evidence to work with, not just hearsay and/or believing or probable cause. SO, if LE charges Terri with something, then atleast Kaine can use that in order to protect Kiara. He can say it is a fact she has been arrested in my sons vanishing or she DID for a fact try to have me murdered.

Now, IF LE makes arrest, Terri has the right to a speedy trial. Problem here is, LE doesn't have enough (as far as we know) to even charge her yet - so to have a trial now - Terri will most likely walk.

IMO- if LE doen't hurry up and charge her, she WILL get visitation with Baby K, as legally;they have nothing on Terri -
He has lots of hearsay, one probable cause MFH in which they didn't charge her.

SO the way I look at this is that baby K fate is in the hands of the LE