2011.01.05 Hearing TES Volunteer Computer Subpoena

[Turnadot]

I assume you mean Geraldo Rivera the talk show host? Ugh. I wasted 2 hours of my free time today posting my thoughts to strangers about the Casey Anthony case only to be called Geraldo Rivera, along with a "smiley" that's labeled "crazy" with 2 strangers "liking" that, and I did it all for free. LOL. Yep, I'm a loser. Carry on! I will click the Websleuths link again in another few years when I forget the lesson about talking on the internet. Maybe by then, the trial will have already occurred (one can only hope).

Ack!!

Don't go. I'm loving your posts, and appreciate your thoughts very much.

 

[MD MOMMY]

NJ Lawyer
I am really enjoying your posts...and would like to read more of your posts.

ITA. There are some valid points IMO. This is not the last we are going to hear about this issue. The defense went about their motion all wrong. HHJP pretty much spelled out how they can fix it. Let's see if JB can read between the lines.

 

[hand]

Why I'm I starting to get the feeling that Geraldo is a member of websleuths? :crazy:

I totally agree with you.
I am sure we will be hearing alot more!!!!

 

[Turnadot]

Actually, I had the impression by the way HHJP was questioning Baez, that he thought the issue was worth exploring too. It's just that Baez fumbled the ball, basically.

 

[ziggy]

NJ Lawyer - Don't go! I've been thanking you in your posts as I read. I'm a 2nd year law student and I think it's important for us to read all angles here and I think you will find that the majority of posters are thoughtful and intelligent here!

I have to add I agree with you that it's reasonable for the defense to infer that the blogger may have taken pictures of other search areas that he had searched, and possible, that due to some type of bias, he chose to secret them - all possible however I agree with the other posters who believe that the judge needs some sort of articulation on Baez's part before he opens up a private citizen's computer for a general search. I don't believe this issue is dead - the judge is telling him in essence to find a work around because the subpoena angle is just too broad at this point.

But, make no mistake, I get your point on the KC's right to inquire and exhaust the possibilities that exculpatory photos exist.

 

[Turnadot]

Why I'm I starting to get the feeling that Geraldo is a member of websleuths? :crazy:

Why?

The discussion has been thought provoking, and not sensationalist at all.

 

[A_News_Junkie]

You know if you post a link here, they will scrub their site.

I have not heard back yet and have to leave till early evening anyway.

 

[cyberborg]

Yes, all the pictures that were posted here at WS were of items found at J. Blanchard Park. At that time, JJ and a small group of people were searching on their own, independent of TES. The items were photographed, LE was notified, and JJ included several pictures of LE putting the bagged items in a police car. I don't recall any time that JJ ever mentioned searching or taking pictures on Suburban Drive.

JB is barking up the wrong tree on this one. He's looking for evidence that I doubt exists.

IMO JB is desperate to intimate that Caylee was dumped after ICA was in jail.

To that end he has lost a number of avenues and wasn't so much interested in JJ's actual photos, more so than to pollute the Jury pool and establish some more ground.

JB has been trying to establish that witnesses have information but are unwilling to cooperate given the nature of the case. I think he was trying to bolster that with JJ, that JJ has evidence that helps prove ICA's innocence and it is being withheld.

I don't think JB particularly cares about the photos per se or the accuracy of the details -- he is more interested in creating perceptions that the proof is out there but the Defense are being frustrated at every turn.

Of course, JB isn't going to pass up an opportunity to fish into JJ's documents in the hope that something fits/helps but ... this is as much about making noises since they don't have squat.

 

[Numbers]

*sigh* I understand there's nothing out there about photos from the actual Suburban Drive search. I took pains to note as much in my post. Rather, the point I made is that the blogger conducted searches for Caylee and posted pictures of some of the searches (I understand Blanchard Park). He didn't post pics of a Suburban Drive search but apparently, he said he looked in the area. Therefore, it's reasonable to ask the blogger if he has pictures of the Suburban Drive search and if so, give us copies. The prosecutor should be entitled to them too, not just defense counsel. Baez said he didn't ask the blogger about it at the deposition b/c he didn't know the blogger had searched Suburban Drive at that point. True or not, the state and the defense are both entitled to the photos if they exist. When you're talking about someone who went and searched for Caylee and contacted law enforcement and kept a blog....it is not a "fishing expedition" to demand an answer to the simple but critical question: Do you have pictures of the area where Caylee's body was found and, if so, turn them over copies, please. We're not talking about tenuous inquiries into tangential matters -- this is a question about whether photos of a body's location exist and what the photos show. I'm confident an appeals court would quickly overturn the judge's decision but I don't think an appeal will be necessary. Ashton seems like a smart guy and surely he will step in to make the same request so a future conviction isn't overturned on something stupid. Remember, you don't want to win the battle and lose the war.

Seems Baez mistruthed just a teeny bit. This deposition was done Dec. 8, 2010, but Baez had used Mr. Jordan's independent searching of Suburban Drive as the very basis of his multiple motions to inspect the TES documents during the spring and summer of 2010.

I'm smelling Oscar Mayer here.

Baez made a big Oopsie and expects to go fishing to cover his own poor performance.

 

[Paintr]

HHJP was protecting not only Mr Jordan's rights but the rights of others in the future. The Judge does not want this case cited in the future by other defense attornies seeking to invade the privacy of a citizen.

HHJP recognized a 'fishing' trip when he saw one, and looked beyond the tiny 'hook' in Mr Baez's hand to the huge 'spear gun' that Mr Baez was holding behind his back.

There are ways for the defense to obtain information they and their client are 'legally' entitled to. Perhaps the defense could start to follow the established rules of proceedure and find out how well that would work for them.

 

[logicalgirl]

My issue with all of this, beside a seize and search of a citizen's whole computer and files is - what if they found pictures of Suburban drive? This area where Caylee's little remains were found was not an open field where one can easily say - look - 20 feet from this tree and fifteen feet from the edge of this ditch is where the remains were found. How would a photograph taken standing in underbrush that dense ever be proven it was the exact spot or even close to it? I don't believe there is any way to prove which part of this lot it was taken on at all.

And aside from that, JJ was posting and blogging during the time when he hoped the remains would be found, and although I congratulate him for his efforts in the search for Caylee, I also believe he got caught up in it all and was looking for his 15 minutes of fame - an "informed, recognized searcher" who could be posted to, be the center of some small fame, and be a somebody in the whole burst of media frenzy. Otherwise, who takes pictures while they are searching for the body of a small two year old?

How many posters here at WS suddenly held up their hands when the fiasco with Baez, his investigator and TES came up? Now I ask you, did you know these gentle posters were out searching? Did they come to WS and start posting their pictures? Not a peep until the TES/investigator harassment started. Not looking for fame....

JJ got caught up in it and found himself in a mess with an illegal tape as he ran for higher ground. And had to tell a more "real" story, because he could see the bear trap he almost fell into.

 

[logicalgirl]

Seems Baez mistruthed just a teeny bit. This deposition was done Dec. 8, 2010, but Baez had used Mr. Jordan's independent searching of Suburban Drive as the very basis of his multiple motions to inspect the TES documents during the spring and summer of 2010.

I'm smelling Oscar Mayer here.

Baez made a big Oopsie and expects to go fishing to cover his own poor performance.

One big oopsie was bringing up the name of Laura Buchanan - almost as he planned to use her depo as evidence JJ had taken those photographs. And I suspect HHJP knows something is up with Miss LB.

 

[Scamperoo]

Hmmn. Well then...even so, if I were defense counsel (Ick...I would hate that)...if someone searched Blanchard Park and took photos of that search but then told the world they searched Suburban Drive too, I'd want to check and see personally if there were photos of Suburban Drive even if the searcher said "Oh I took pics of the Blanchard Park search but not the Suburban Drive search". Especially knowing that the general public (understandably) hated my client and might be skewed against her. Given those facts, if my defense was so reliant on the location of the body, I'd press to see the file containing the photos and not just be content to hear "Oh, I don't have any photos." I'd go to the ends of the earth to try and gain access to a possible source of photos. If a defense attorney was content to sit back with an answer of "I snapped Blanchard photos but not Suburban Drive photos" I might fault them for being ineffective. It would be nice to have the computer viewed in camera....in the privacy of the judge's chambers and not have the public see the computer contents. That would alleviate the blogger's privacy concerns. Not sure if that's allowable under Florida's liberal sunshine laws. Which sometimes get in the way of a prosecutor's strategy believe it or not.

I respectfully disagree with you, I think you would make an excellent defense counsel.

 

[logicalgirl]

Hmmn. Well then...even so, if I were defense counsel (Ick...I would hate that)...if someone searched Blanchard Park and took photos of that search but then told the world they searched Suburban Drive too, I'd want to check and see personally if there were photos of Suburban Drive even if the searcher said "Oh I took pics of the Blanchard Park search but not the Suburban Drive search". Especially knowing that the general public (understandably) hated my client and might be skewed against her. Given those facts, if my defense was so reliant on the location of the body, I'd press to see the file containing the photos and not just be content to hear "Oh, I don't have any photos." I'd go to the ends of the earth to try and gain access to a possible source of photos. If a defense attorney was content to sit back with an answer of "I snapped Blanchard photos but not Suburban Drive photos" I might fault them for being ineffective. It would be nice to have the computer viewed in camera....in the privacy of the judge's chambers and not have the public see the computer contents. That would alleviate the blogger's privacy concerns. Not sure if that's allowable under Florida's liberal sunshine laws. Which sometimes get in the way of a prosecutor's strategy believe it or not.

I think this wording is a little strong. I think the general public is unfortunately almost completely unaware of what we posters believe ICA has done. There are no lineups at the hearings in Orlando, and 350 posters and guests online during a hearing from all parts of the world does not the general public make. And I do not hate ICA, I do hate what I believe she has done. And what does the location of the body actually have to do with her defense? She could have driven it 30 miles away - the car would still have decomp in it, the bags were still from the Anthony's, the baby's face was still covered in duct tape.

My personal view with these perhaps/maybe photos of JJ is, this is a teensy weensy small slice of the evidence against her. What it would take to prove any photo, except one in situ from the crime lab would be infinitely impossible to prove an exact location. Impossible. Maybe if someone took a video of the area as they walked along the road? Maybe? But a random bush photo? There are IMO much bigger more important fish to fry in this pond.

 

[Numbers]

I think this wording is a little strong. I think the general public is unfortunately almost completely unaware of what we posters believe ICA has done. There are no lineups at the hearings in Orlando, and 350 posters and guests online during a hearing from all parts of the world does not the general public make. And I do not hate ICA, I do hate what I believe she has done. And what does the location of the body actually have to do with her defense? She could have driven it 30 miles away - the car would still have decomp in it, the bags were still from the Anthony's, the baby's face was still covered in duct tape.

My personal view with these perhaps/maybe photos of JJ is, this is a teensy weensy small slice of the evidence against her. What it would take to prove any photo, except one in situ from the crime lab would be infinitely impossible to prove an exact location. Impossible. Maybe if someone took a video of the area as they walked along the road? Maybe? But a random bush photo? There are IMO much bigger more important fish to fry in this pond.

ITA.

Baez seems to believe that one random snapshot that ~might~ be linked to Suburban Drive, ~sorta~ near the location of the remains will negate the mountains of other evidence that shows the area under water at the time.

Juries ain't dumb.

 

[logicalgirl]

ITA.

Baez seems to believe that one random snapshot that ~might~ be linked to Suburban Drive, ~sorta~ near the location of the remains will negate the mountains of other evidence that shows the area under water at the time.

Juries ain't dumb.

Your sig line kills me every time I see it! Could you add "what's up with the double pocket pat every 5 minutes?"

 

[faefrost]

I assume you mean Geraldo Rivera the talk show host? Ugh. I wasted 2 hours of my free time today posting my thoughts to strangers about the Casey Anthony case only to be called Geraldo Rivera, along with a "smiley" that's labeled "crazy" with 2 strangers "liking" that, and I did it all for free. LOL. Yep, I'm a loser. Carry on! I will click the Websleuths link again in another few years when I forget the lesson about talking on the internet. Maybe by then, the trial will have already occurred (one can only hope).

Oh no! Please don't flee us NJL, your posts are truly informative and teach us alot. I think we actually all are on the same page about this for the most part. The defense is entitled to those photos if they exist. It was just the manner in which they went about getting them that is problematic.

As far as examining the camera. Didn't LE examine it when they discovered the unrelated clothing at Blanchard Park?. One other point that has not been discussed. Everyone keeps mentioning that JJ took photos of search sites. From what we have seen this is not 100% accurate, and can be misleading. Everything that we have seen seems to indicate that JJ took photos of positive search results. he took pictures when they found something at Blanchard Park, not simply the location itself. So the assumption that he took pictures elsewhere where nothing was found is probably pushing beyond a stretch. But even then I'm sure a narrowly targeted request or questions asked under oath probably would have been readily answered without JJ bringing his lawyer to bear and challenging the subpoena. And tossing such a broad subpoena before actually seeking to ask the questions of the witness under oath is essentially declaring "we think the witness is going to lie to us anyway. The information we plan on finding on his hard drive will prove that he is hostile us and would have lied if we had asked!" it's more than a bit of a circular reasoning problem. This is an example of classic JB reasoning that we have seen over and over. You're not supposed to declare the witness a liar or take action in that way until you actually ask the question.

 

[logicalgirl]

Oh no! Please don't flee us NJL, your posts are truly informative and teach us alot. I think we actually all are on the same page about this for the most part. The defense is entitled to those photos is they exist. It was just the manner in which they went about getting them that is problematic.

As far as examining the camera. Didn't LE examine it when they discovered the unrelated clothing at Blanchard Park?. One other point that has not been discussed. Everyone keeps mentioning that JJ took photos of search sites. From what we have seen this is not 100% accurate, and can be misleading. Everything that we have seen seems to indicate that JJ took photos of positive search results. he took pictures when they found something at Blanchard Park, not simply the location itself. So the assumption that he took pictures elsewhere where nothing was found is probably pushing beyond a stretch. But even then I'm sure a narrowly targeted request or questions asked under oath probably would have been readily answered without JJ bringing his lawyer to bear and challenging the subpoena. And tossing such a broad subpoena before actually seeking to ask the questions of the witness under oath is essentially declaring "we think the witness is going to lie to us anyway. The information we plan on finding on his hard drive will prove that he is hostile us and would have lied if we had asked!" it's more than a bit of a circular reasoning problem. This is an example of classic JB reasoning that we have seen over and over. You're not supposed to declare the witness a liar or take action in that way until you actually ask the question.

Brilliant! As usual you take our arguments up a level or three in both the facts and rationale - thank you!

 

[Sooner Fan#1]

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

OMG -- I watched this 30 to 50 times this season! And your right, this is what teamwork feels like!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[A_News_Junkie]

Your sig line kills me every time I see it! Could you add "what's up with the double pocket pat every 5 minutes?"

There is something in that pocket -- Monday's hearing he was looking and patting it. Nobody is that obsessed with hanky position. IMHO.