2011.01.05 Hearing TES Volunteer Computer Subpoena

What I was saying was the argument used towards JJ could be used towards all these other people, not these other people have anything to do with JJ having or not having pictures of the Suburban location.

To my knowledge, Baez has not asked to see all these travel records.

Baez did, however, file motion after motion to have all 4000 TES searcher records handed over to him, with the argument that even if it didn't show on a searcher's TES file that person had searched near the area where the remains were eventually found, some of those searchers had also made searches on their own, and so he should be able to question, and/or depose, each and every one of them. So my point of bringing in all these other people is to say, yes, it is true a person could sign up with TES, go on TES sponsored searches, and still go off on their own, and it is just as possible any person could have searched for Caylee without ever signing up with TES at all, and since we are just speculating along, it is reasonable speculation some people didn't have anything to do with TES, like, say, Roy Kronk, and still went out and searched the area Caylee was found. Cameras are a dime a dozen these days, so it is within the realm of possibility someone somewhere took some pictures, so at what point is it okay for the court to say enough already?

NeJame, attorney for TES, appeared in court and fought these motions to protect the rights of TES and the people who searched for them. JJ's attorney, McKellan?, came to court and fought to protect JJ's rights, which JJ still has, no matter what Casey Anthony did or did not do. And just as Casey Anthony has the right to make the state prove she did something, JJ has that same right, if the defense wants to seize his records and photos and everything else they think he might have, they have the burden of proof to show he actually has something before they get to commit what IMO is a major invasion of privacy. JJ 'might have' this and 'might have' that, IMO, is just not enough.

ITA

Apart from presenting a weak factual basis that any "magic area" photos exist, and in light of Roy Kronk's current predicament, Im sure the disparaging remarks made by Baez about Jordan would also have resonated with Judge Perry.

During the course of this hearing, Baez referred to J Jordan as :
  • "an interesting individual",
  • "who on numerous occasions intentionally inserted himself"
  • "I think, for a proper investigation as to this witness, any potential bias he may have, or his credability"
  • "his pattern of conduct"
  • "he has done things intentionally to thwart the investigation of the defense"
  • "this individual has changed his story already"


Being an "interesting individual" didn't seem to bother Baez when alongside Ms Laura Buchanan, this defense team featured Mr Jordan as part of their "good faith" basis for suspecting TES were not being forthcoming with their records. Baez subsequently imo was thrown around 4000 bones. :waitasec:
 
What I was saying was the argument used towards JJ could be used towards all these other people, not these other people have anything to do with JJ having or not having pictures of the Suburban location.

To my knowledge, Baez has not asked to see all these travel records.

Baez did, however, file motion after motion to have all 4000 TES searcher records handed over to him, with the argument that even if it didn't show on a searcher's TES file that person had searched near the area where the remains were eventually found, some of those searchers had also made searches on their own, and so he should be able to question, and/or depose, each and every one of them. So my point of bringing in all these other people is to say, yes, it is true a person could sign up with TES, go on TES sponsored searches, and still go off on their own, and it is just as possible any person could have searched for Caylee without ever signing up with TES at all, and since we are just speculating along, it is reasonable speculation some people didn't have anything to do with TES, like, say, Roy Kronk, and still went out and searched the area Caylee was found. Cameras are a dime a dozen these days, so it is within the realm of possibility someone somewhere took some pictures, so at what point is it okay for the court to say enough already?

NeJame, attorney for TES, appeared in court and fought these motions to protect the rights of TES and the people who searched for them. JJ's attorney, McKellan?, came to court and fought to protect JJ's rights, which JJ still has, no matter what Casey Anthony did or did not do. And just as Casey Anthony has the right to make the state prove she did something, JJ has that same right, if the defense wants to seize his records and photos and everything else they think he might have, they have the burden of proof to show he actually has something before they get to commit what IMO is a major invasion of privacy. JJ 'might have' this and 'might have' that, IMO, is just not enough.
This is one phenomenal post!

Thanks, Lanie!
 
I am not used to explaining the law to the public, I normally "Rule and Roll", Judge Strickland said in the autopsy hearing. Whenever Judge Perry is carefully enunciating questions and case law for Mr. Baez it reminds me of that little gem. I bet he is not used to having to break it down, so very, very much as he must do to make things clear to this defense team.

You lawyers helping us here have great patience and we appreciate these teaching moments.
Does it seem to you Judge Perry tries to hint around to Baez the path to take to get to where he is going?
 
BBM - I am not sure I agree with this statement. I was a volunteer and I did come on WS and talk in general terms about the searches. We were told not to talk about exactly what we did and what areas were searched and of course not to take photos.

I remember reading some of JJ's posts and he did take a much more proactive role in searching than most of the volunteers, including going out on his own with others. Nothing wrong with that, HOWEVER, as JB said at the hearing, he did more than just search, he contacted LE with tips, suggestions, etc. called them out when he found things and most of all, started his own web site in regards to all this, aside from posting on Ws and other forums. He did post pictures of things that were found at Blanchard Park. While I don't want to make too much of a comparison - he did much the same things Joy W. did, but not quite as 'bizarrely' if I can use that term. He did contact LE and say he had searched Suburban and Caylee was not there. I hope I am not sounding too critical of JJ because I know he was doing it because he wanted to find Caylee - he made that clear from the beginning. However, he did take a few steps over the line from the rest of the people who volunteered their time to look for Caylee. My opinion only of course.

You summed up what I have thought from the beginning. He did a little more than the "average" (if there is such thing LOL) searcher. I know a lot of us were floored with some of the things we read back then. I can remember one poster in particular was extremely upset as she has/had strong ties with TES.
 
I am not used to explaining the law to the public, I normally "Rule and Roll", Judge Strickland said in the autopsy hearing. Whenever Judge Perry is carefully enunciating questions and case law for Mr. Baez it reminds me of that little gem. I bet he is not used to having to break it down, so very, very much as he must do to make things clear to this defense team.

You lawyers helping us here have great patience and we appreciate these teaching moments.
Does it seem to you Judge Perry tries to hint around to Baez the path to take to get to where he is going?

I'm not a lawyer BUT I can see him leading JB to the water on many occasions. He tends, IMO to ask the same question to JB over and over as if to say "if you do this, this and this what you're asking for may happen" He IMO places emphasis and makes JB answer NO to his question then 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 his head as if to say "DO IT" This is my personal interpretation as to what is going on. I think he ALMOST feels sorry for JB.
 
ITA

Apart from presenting a weak factual basis that any "magic area" photos exist, and in light of Roy Kronk's current predicament, Im sure the disparaging remarks made by Baez about Jordan would also have resonated with Judge Perry.


During the course of this hearing, Baez referred to J Jordan as :
  • "an interesting individual",
  • "who on numerous occasions intentionally inserted himself"
  • "I think, for a proper investigation as to this witness, any potential bias he may have, or his credability"
  • "his pattern of conduct"
  • "he has done things intentionally to thwart the investigation of the defense"
  • "this individual has changed his story already"

Being an "interesting individual" didn't seem to bother Baez when alongside Ms Laura Buchanan, this defense team featured Mr Jordan as part of their "good faith" basis for suspecting TES were not being forthcoming with their records. Baez subsequently imo was thrown around 4000 bones. :waitasec:



BBM:rocker:: totally agree with the sentiments expressed and thought I'd edit for "accuracy" only:innocent:: the defense gang was thrown around~ 824,000 bones assuming searchers were "full-bodied" (we are aware that they were FULL HEARTED and FULL DEDICATED, Higher power bless them all (pc correctness!). :woohoo:Them's alot 'o bones! AND CANDIDATES:furious: for SODDI:waitasec:! :banghead:
 
I don't know why they're all hell bent in getting photos that don't exist when they have JW's. :D
 
Can someone quickly post ALL the dates J.Jordan searched.

What I am trying to remember is IF he went to Suburban to search on a separate occasion or day(s) apart from the Sept 1 when he said he went with other TES searchers?

If he was searching with TES and went to Suburban on his own with a group of searhcers...I am speculating that he wouldn't have his camera since they were not allowed to have them or take pics during the TES searches...

Am I making sense?
 
Thanks NJ and AZ lawyers! :) Love having you both here.

Baez outright lied in the court hearing. First he says we searched "what little blogs we're aware of in this case" and this was on 8 Dec 2010, then he says a few minutes later "here's the thing the I'm not sure if the court understands there's """thousands""" of blogs about this case". There are a couple of other places where he kinda didn't tell the truth but I'll get to those later.

Judge Perry said "all I'm interested in is a factual basis for the court to issue a subpoena ducus tecum all I'm trying to find out is what is the basis in fact that this court has to order blogs and what you requested in this for the court to order that". Judge Perry said he wanted a basis for the issuance of a subpoena ducus tecum.

No factual basis, motion denied. Isn't that it in a nutshell? So is the argument about what Baez presented and did it have a factual basis?

I'll actually cut JB some slack on this one. he obviously has no real working knowlege of the 'lingo" that we use here on the interwebs tubes. There are thousands of posts, some quite long and detailed, on this forum alone, concerning the Caylee case. There are probably at least a dozen other sites covering it similarly, not to mention the various news agencies that have hundreds of online reports. Foxnews even had a series of online blog streams on the subject back in the early days of the case, before GVS decided to stop covering crime and move to an all Obama/Palin all the time format. So yeah depending on what you are calling a "blog" there are probably easily half a million individual posts out there in history caches. But as I said JB is not net savy, he fails to realize something that the even less internet savy HHJP picked up on with one simple turn of a sentance. While there may be hundreds of thousands of blog and forum posts out here, they are all absolutely and utterly meaningless. They are as the good judge put it, "ChitChat".
 
Can someone quickly post ALL the dates J.Jordan searched.

What I am trying to remember is IF he went to Suburban to search on a separate occasion or day(s) apart from the Sept 1 when he said he went with other TES searchers?

If he was searching with TES and went to Suburban on his own with a group of searhcers...I am speculating that he wouldn't have his camera since they were not allowed to have them or take pics during the TES searches...

Am I making sense?
"I've been going out every day after work and we do a big group thing on the weekends," Jordan said. "The [Orange County] Sheriff's office has been phenomenal. They've been very responsive to our calls."


Joe Jordan's transcript

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/22918297/detail.html
adio of his depo with ASA
http://www.wftv.com/video/26171628/index.html
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/22918267/detail.html
 
Exactly! You are right that these are 2 different issues. The possibility of photos of the crime scene are one thing. JJ's comments about Casey/Caylee/the search/George/Cindy, etc. are another thing. I don't know enough about Part B so can't answer that. Have been focused on Part A. I guess if prosecutors call JJ as a witness, defense might throw some of his statements at him to hurt his "credibility" as a witness. I haven't read JJ's blog in question and so can't comment on the proper result. Thoughts?
I had his original WS thread bumped (he changed his username to Firesweep), and I'm pretty sure Leila is right that there were no references by him to searches or photos he took of Suburban Drive, only J. Blanchard Park, and other possible search areas, so IMO it's all much ado about nothing!:twocents:

Here it is: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69153"]2008.08.17 Items Found by Searchers in Wooded Area - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Can someone quickly post ALL the dates J.Jordan searched.

What I am trying to remember is IF he went to Suburban to search on a separate occasion or day(s) apart from the Sept 1 when he said he went with other TES searchers?

If he was searching with TES and went to Suburban on his own with a group of searhcers...I am speculating that he wouldn't have his camera since they were not allowed to have them or take pics during the TES searches...

Am I making sense?
You can do a search for all his posts by searching for either: joseph s. jordan, or firesweep...
 
Quote from Leila
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 10,726


http://www.wftv.com/video/26171628/index.html#

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...hxtYFYQjRZ_7hQ

From your link above.................

"Richard Crique works in a mortuary. He is one of the searchers that spent days looking for Caylee. He told investigators about one of the first times he searched near the area where Caylee's remains were found.

"It just hit me. I got a whiff of something that didn't belong there," said Crique. But he told detectives that water kept him and other volunteers = from doing a thorough search. "Describe the water," said one of the investigators."It was clear. About knee deep," said Crique."


Other searchers have also stated there was water in the area where Caylee's remains were eventually found.The second search done by Texas Equasearch in early November tried to search that area and called off the search as they almost lost one of their ATVs. I remember Tim Miller being interviewed on the last day of the search and saying how they had hoped to search that area but it was too dangerous to attempt it with that much water there. There was no way Tim Miller could have known then that a little more than a month later, the water would have receded and Caylee's remains were found there. There's too many people who've stated the area where Caylee's remains were eventually found was under water for several months.



JB is so obsessed with the remains site, I think he's basing his entire defense on something that didn't happen. He wants to present to the jury that sometime after Casey was in jail, someone placed Caylee's remains where they were found. But, he has no way of proving that was the case, and the facts suggest that Caylee's remains were likely placed there in mid to late June 2008 and remained there until their discovery on Dec. 11, 2008. It's like JB is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. "
__________________

I agree Leila.

The jury is going to hear from Tim Miller, the jury is going to be shown many photos that depict the magic spot as Judge Perry calls it, thoroughly under water. Others like Danny Ibison and Richard C. are going to further testify that they could not search, as they had to abort their attempts as the area was knee deep in water.
OK that is a very, very clear idea that will remain in the jury's mind, the PHOTOS.
Then if someone else gets on the stand and claims they did not think the area was under water, or Jose tries to work that into his opening and or closing statements. He may as well be asking of the hardworking, taxpaying members of the jury, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?

They are going to of course believe what they saw with their own eyes, a swamp like area in the photo.
This would be like asking the Scott Peterson jury members , after listening to Amber Frye's columnious tapes, are you going to belive me or your lying ears?

If it looks like water from the ground and areal photos.....it was water, even a child on a jury would not be convinced otherwise.

As usual, the defense brings up matters that absolutely work against their claims. They just never learn. The last time they did this, Jose brought up Henry Lee as a reason the judge should allow the defense experts to be alone with the evidence.....they wound up with not only
OCSD being in attendance, but also
staff from the state's attorney office and
for the entire day to be videotaped!!!

Defense expert Bill Sheaffer summed it up, with the age old, "Be careful what you wish for; because you just might get it".

The jury may not know what to make of Joe and his letter he sent in to authorities. I n the words of my late Grandmother, "I don't know what possessed him to do such a thing". I believe Mr. Miller is going to be very compelling for them. If the jury hears from Mr. Miller, Baez is not going to be in need of another expert, he is going to be in need of a miracle.

The only thing that Baez said that is true, imo, is that Joe did insert himself front and center by sending in that letter. The domino effect that letter started is astounding. Looking back on it now I am sure he regrets how flippant his decision to write was and what a poor understanding he had of the ramifications of what if he is wrong had.
Whenever my husband and I are arguing, and I know he has got me on something, how I stall for a second to think up my next point, is I always say....honey....what if you are wrong? Then we both laugh and it is squashed.
In criminal law, what if you are wrong is a much more present and real question that demands an answer....that is for Mr. Mason, for his edification this morning.
I wish Joe would have held on to his letter and just asked himself that one simple question.

I like to close with you just can't make this stuff up,so, does anyone recall Jose actually did ask someone; reporters maybe, are you gonna believe me or your lying eyes?
I belive the photos! http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20480714/detail.html

RBM

TWA, great post, as always.

I do recall when Jose made that statement, but I believe what he actually said was, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

After the hearing on Friday, 8/21/09, at about 2:25 into the video, JB says, "From what I understand people were saying those photos show the area was wet in November. I think everyone saw the Dominic Casey video. It is clear it was not wet. Who you going to believe, me or your own eyes."

www.wftv.com/video/20494617/index.html

I do remember that my jaw hit the floor when I heard him say that! :loser:
 
I'll actually cut JB some slack on this one. he obviously has no real working knowlege of the 'lingo" that we use here on the interwebs tubes. There are thousands of posts, some quite long and detailed, on this forum alone, concerning the Caylee case. There are probably at least a dozen other sites covering it similarly, not to mention the various news agencies that have hundreds of online reports. Foxnews even had a series of online blog streams on the subject back in the early days of the case, before GVS decided to stop covering crime and move to an all Obama/Palin all the time format. So yeah depending on what you are calling a "blog" there are probably easily half a million individual posts out there in history caches. But as I said JB is not net savy, he fails to realize something that the even less internet savy HHJP picked up on with one simple turn of a sentance. While there may be hundreds of thousands of blog and forum posts out here, they are all absolutely and utterly meaningless. They are as the good judge put it, "ChitChat".

I thought Baez used to teach Internet research to other legal professionals?:waitasec:
 
I'll actually cut JB some slack on this one. he obviously has no real working knowlege of the 'lingo" that we use here on the interwebs tubes. There are thousands of posts, some quite long and detailed, on this forum alone, concerning the Caylee case. There are probably at least a dozen other sites covering it similarly, not to mention the various news agencies that have hundreds of online reports. Foxnews even had a series of online blog streams on the subject back in the early days of the case, before GVS decided to stop covering crime and move to an all Obama/Palin all the time format. So yeah depending on what you are calling a "blog" there are probably easily half a million individual posts out there in history caches. But as I said JB is not net savy, he fails to realize something that the even less internet savy HHJP picked up on with one simple turn of a sentance. While there may be hundreds of thousands of blog and forum posts out here, they are all absolutely and utterly meaningless. They are as the good judge put it, "ChitChat".


Oh I agree Fae, but the point I was making was (doesn't matter which terminology you go with blog or comments) this, he says...

1. The few blogs/comments we're aware of on this case
2. There's thousands of blogs/comments on this case

Unless he is indiscriminately using blog for when he means comment and then blog for when he means blog - ie as in I have my own personal website.

Either way he needs to start getting his head around the terminology or else a jury is going to think he's a damn fool. Most jurors are going to be more internet savvy than Baez - which does not bode well for the computer expert testimony and I gather some other lawyer sitting at the defense table will present that part.
 
Actually, I'm not sure the subpoena could have been granted without some tinkering but....to answer your question, I don't think Baez's inability to say for sure who took the photos should result in the denial of the subpoena. We're not even sure who took photos in JJ's possession so how should Baez know? Why can't the issue of the photographer's identity be part of the Subpoena? Does Baez have a reasonable belief that JJ might have photos of the "magic site"? Does it matter if JJ personally took these photos or if he possesses someone else's photos? In Baez's mind, if a photo exists of the magic site showing less water than folks have said existed and you can argue a body should have been visible....he will want to see that photo and use it. I don't think it matters *who* took the photos. Even if it did, how would Baez be expected to know for sure?
He could have asked?
 
Thanks TWA.
I am re-reading the transcript but wanted to post incase someone could answer more quickly than my reading the transcript.

My good buddy, please know I wasn't being snarky, I honestly do not know a list of the dates, I did try to google to get the list for you, but nope.
(I hate when rude people say well...if you'd read the transcripts, you'd know...that is not me, at all!)

I asked a good buddy of mine who works on this, I'll let you know if I get it. Have a great weekend!

[ame="http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5392977n&tag=ap"]The Untold Story of Caylee Anthony - 48 Hours - CBS News[/ame]
 
I'll actually cut JB some slack on this one. he obviously has no real working knowlege of the 'lingo" that we use here on the interwebs tubes. There are thousands of posts, some quite long and detailed, on this forum alone, concerning the Caylee case. There are probably at least a dozen other sites covering it similarly, not to mention the various news agencies that have hundreds of online reports. Foxnews even had a series of online blog streams on the subject back in the early days of the case, before GVS decided to stop covering crime and move to an all Obama/Palin all the time format. So yeah depending on what you are calling a "blog" there are probably easily half a million individual posts out there in history caches. But as I said JB is not net savy, he fails to realize something that the even less internet savy HHJP picked up on with one simple turn of a sentance. While there may be hundreds of thousands of blog and forum posts out here, they are all absolutely and utterly meaningless. They are as the good judge put it, "ChitChat".


Hey! Wait a doggone minute, Faefrost. I assume you are making an exception of WS when you mention 'utterly meaningless' posts. I was under the impression that each and every post on here was full of brilliance, wit, humour, and just brimming with meaning. LOL! I think I'm hurt.
 

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