2011.01.25 Defense Requests More Time to Submit Expert Reports

[strawberry]

But Dr. Lee had "perspective ideas" and could have "reached out" to LE if they would have let him be there!

That's pretty much right on the money!

 

[kaRN]

I feel and pray for Dr. Spitz. But with the type of injury and surgery he has had, and given his greatly advanced age, he will be lucky to be out of the hospital and under the care of skilled nursing care by the time this trial starts. Given the massive recovery involved I can't see any way that Dr. Spitz himself will be available. Probably the only hope is if the good doctors son, also a well know pathologist can consult with him and assemble and testify to his findings from notes... or maybe his report...oh wait!

ITA! I'm just imagining all the other concurrent health issues he might be dealing with like diabetes that would delay healing even if he remains infection free. Many people his age don't survive anesthetic so I wish him well. He's got ornery feist on his side!! I'd be skeeered to be his RN and have him yell at me but alas.........I'd chart the fact he attempted to thwart his dressing change....in my report

I was thinking about JB crashing the conference for his unique opportunity at gathering his experts and maybe a few more to brain storm his evidence or lack of it. I've decided it isn't unethical and would like your opinion faefrost.
IMO, it would be like grand rounds in my world. All medical specialities gathered to discuss and re-adjust the plan of care based on everyones input. All data is considered. No data is omitted or altered. Just a chance for fresh eyes with a different perspective to sometimes point out the obvious.
In JB's case, his experts are working (or should be) towards unravelling the scientific truth particular to their area of speciality. His goal is to get ICA off at any cost and by any means. Right there, these folks are going to be at great odds, assuming any of them show up which I don't believe they will. If he had confirmed attendance of anyone, he would have submitted it to the court with his motion I'd think, especially after all the whining about nobody taking his calls.
But lets pretend the creme de la creme of Forensic Science agree to a pow pow. Even if one of them were to be tempted to alter their opinion in favour of the inmate, is it likely that 5 members of the AAFS will conspire together to do that?? At the annual conference of their peers in the Academy??? At the meeting where the final draft of legislation that promotes transparency and ethics in Forensic Sciences and would provide experts a protocol for dealing with unethical and immoral lawyers like JB????? I think not :maddening:
I think the SAO and BP will get reports all right. From the Florida Bar if JB doesn't approach his pow pow with the attitude of wanting to understand what all this evidence means or does any of this suggest a different scenario than that determined by the folks you had breakfast with today lol! It's ethical for the meeting to take place though IMO and if JB wants to go bankrupt paying hotel bills and conference fees to stalk public people in a public place and hand out his business card, who cares. Less money to pay his next whopping huge fine with.

Assuming JB even knows there's a conference and isn't getting all his wisdom teeth out or something 'youthful' like that. LOL!

 

[kaRN]

Wait...now I am getting confused....

I thought one of our members is the one who sleuthed out the health issue with Dr Spitz based on a court document from a DIFFERENT case that Dr Spitz is definitely an expert witness in?

Have we actually seen anything from Baez that refers to Dr Spitz being anything other than "unavailable to him" or unreachable? Has Baez even made a verbal comment in a hearing or written comment in court doc in THIS case concerning the availability of Dr Spitz??

I got my information from this. http://news.cincinnati.com/article/...0346/Chicken-bone-latest-twist-in-Widmer-case

 

[joypath]

I also love you in case I haven't told you recently TWA!!! With respect to the bolded by me red portion above. She would have signed them when she prepared them and then ammended them as new data affected her previous conclusions and re-signed and dated them again IMO. Joypath would know for sure and explains these things better than I lol! :crazy:

:great:KaRN, I'm adding my love of TWA :rocker:to yours, "capr identidem". Any and every Forensic Anthro. I've ever had the opportunity to meet, see, observe, witness or chat about (think that covers my obligation :innocent: as presentating this as my personal opinion) has conducted his/her scientific assessment of human (and NON-human) remains in a similar to that of a competent practicing anatomical or forensic pathologist (again, IMO and woefully biased :rocker.
:twocents:They complete as needed: CHARTreviews/DOCUMENTS/DIAGRAMS/SKETCHES/PROFILES/ANALYTICAL TESTING/REVIEW DATA and follow a logical format/protocol/procedure manual/chart notes, all memorialized by SIGNATURES & DATES of BOTH REQUESTING information and REVIEWING data, EACH and EVERY time a change or comment is added/made/revised.:banghead:

:waitasec: In lay terms, it's as if you're keeping a record of your teenage journal "summer" to write about it in that first school essay: "What I did on my summer vacation": planning,hunting,talking,searching,paying,DOING,reviewing,REMEMBERING by REPORTING and getting an "A" grade by claiming it with YOUR signature! :truce: I bet many of us can relate to what would have happen to those students:loser: , none of whom post at WS :rocker: , of course, who would have waited until their JUNIOR year to transcribe accurately the story of "What I did on my PRE-FRESHMAN summer vacation"! :floorlaugh:



PS: Have I :innocent: mentioned I really really really want these "smilies" to "jazz up"
my official reports? hmmmm probably not a good idea, eh? :crazy:

 

[kaRN]

:waitasec: Wait a minute, this happened in December, and Jose is just NOW bringing it up a month later? Not, say, at the last status hearing, or any hearing since December 24th? Either he wasn't told until now, or didn't want to use this as an excuse until he absolutely had to. Surely he was contacted shortly after the first surgery about Dr. Spitz! Well, unless like the other experts, Dr. Spitz wasn't returning his calls...

Yup. Not that it should have affected Dr S's autopsy report anyway. But we're assuming JB returns calls, and reads his emails, mail etc. and I'm not sure he does. It's possible he has no idea Dr Spitz has been hospitalized actually.
One of my boys has ADD and reminds me of JB sometimes. Not the lying and arrogance, just the kaos.

 

[nums24]

Yup. Not that it should have affected Dr S's autopsy report anyway. But we're assuming JB returns calls, and reads his emails, mail etc. and I'm not sure he does. It's possible he has no idea Dr Spitz has been hospitalized actually.
One of my boys has ADD and reminds me of JB sometimes. Not the lying and arrogance, just the kaos.

IMO, the defense should have made some sort of contact with Dr. Spitz back in early December when HHJP ordered the defense to provide the information. The first order was issued 12/3/2010: http://www.ninthcircuit.org/news/Hi...tional Discovery & Other Dicovery Matters.pdf

 

[cecybeans]

I think, as usual, the term "submit" here can be translated as "desperately search for last-minute, unsuspecting, potential candidates who might possibly agree in a moment of weakness to risk their reputation to be an expert defense witness while dealing with a hot mess of a lead attorney and his massively unsypmathetic client before they, too, change their minds"

 

[LambChop]

But Dr. Lee had "perspective ideas" and could have "reached out" to LE if they would have let him be there!

I think Dr. Lee thinks too much of himself (or is it JB) because at the end of the day Dr. Lee is still just an average citizen as far as LE is concerned when doing an investigation at a crime scene. Perfect example, 17 hairs. Can you imagine Dr. Lee trapsing all over picking up bone fragments and yelling "I found another one you missed"? To be truthful I think Dr. Lee knows to wait for an invitation. JB, not so much. jmo

 

[ThinkTank]

I believe that JB did communicate this specific information to the judge in private or under seal in order to not publish Dr. Spitz's personal medical information. One of the attorneys had commented that it was the first ethical thing they have seen JB do.

In the Defense Motion for extension of time to comply with order for Expert witness reports, filed Jan 25, 2011 - the Defense writes about Dr. Werner Spitz --
"i. The Defense has a good faith basis and has supporting documentation which has been disclosed to the prosecution and is available to the court to examine under seal as to why Dr. Werner Spitz's report is not complete."

 

[LambChop]

In the Defense Motion for extension of time to comply with order for Expert witness reports, filed Jan 25, 2011 - the Defense writes about Dr. Werner Spitz --
"i. The Defense has a good faith basis and has supporting documentation which has been disclosed to the prosecution and is available to the court to examine under seal as to why Dr. Werner Spitz's report is not complete."

So do you think HHJP will buy this latest load of horse manure?

 

[Gma Kat]

IMO, the defense should have made some sort of contact with Dr. Spitz back in early December when HHJP ordered the defense to provide the information. The first order was issued 12/3/2010: http://www.ninthcircuit.org/news/Hi...tional Discovery & Other Dicovery Matters.pdf

ITA. This frustrates me to no end. As a legal secretary one of my priorities was making sure our experts remained onboard, available, and we had the CV BEFORE we ever contracted with them. You kept in contact with them as the case progressed to AVOID problems at the eleventh hour....I am disgusted how this case has been handled and how the rules just bend and bend.....I understand why HHJP has been lenient.....but I'm waiting for the day of reckoning for not only ICA, but for this defense team as well. :banghead:

 

[LambChop]

ITA. This frustrates me to no end. As a legal secretary one of my priorities was making sure our experts remained onboard, available, and we had the CV BEFORE we ever contracted with them. You kept in contact with them as the case progressed to AVOID problems at the eleventh hour....I am disgusted how this case has been handled and how the rules just bend and bend.....I understand why HHJP has been lenient.....but I'm waiting for the day of reckoning for not only ICA, but for this defense team as well. :banghead:

Hear, hear!!!!!

 

[Gma Kat]

So do you think HHJP will buy this latest load of horse manure?

No LambChop, I don't think he'll buy it.....but I'm afraid rather than prejudice ICA's case, he'll bend as much as he can. I'm pretty sure HHJP smells the manure all the way from JB's office as it is being created......:floorlaugh:

 

[ThinkTank]

I'm still trying to figure that one out. Apparently no one has ever told JB that defense expert witnesses, particularly scientific experts are not supposed to be part of the defense team. They aren't supposed to be part of any team. They are supposed to be a part of any "team". They are supposed to come in and give the impression that they are impartial independent witnesses who have a solid expert opinion on their small piece of the case. They are not supposed to be collaborating with other defense witnesses beyond the actual handling of the evidence in question. Putting them all together in one place to talk about the case undermines their credibility and believability. They are not their to investigate the case or give the whole picture. That is the defense attorneys job. They should not be seen as operating as a group in order to all end up on the same page.

Bravo!!! excellent post!!!
Apparently the Defense team (JB) sold Dr. Kathy R. on the Experts-being-part-of-the-defense-team idea, because that is exactly what Dr. Reichs told Ann Curry on the TODAY Show in 2009!

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/32544789/ns/today-today_books/

KR "... do we have rogue forensic scientists or incompetent forensic scientists? ..."
KR ".... we need to regulate forensic science.... determine who is professionally competent"

(2:19) AC - "are you done with your report? have you submitted your report? will the defense want to use what you've concluded?"

KR - "I'm told that I'll definitely be testifying, and my role as an anthropologist, is to look at the victim, him or herself, and in this case, the tiny little skeleton of this little girl that was found. So, I've completed that phase of my work, but it's an ongoing process, and all of the members of the defense team constantly work together and keep each other informed on what's going on."

AC - "so your're very much then amoral about this, even though one side has employed you. Your're saying that you want the truth for the child, or for the victim, and no matter where the chips fall, you know ...."

KR - "exactly"
AC - "it's hard not to pick a side for some people, particularly in this case"

KR - "our system, any accused is innocent until proven guilty. we have a very very tragic victim, we have this little girl, and something very bad happened to this little girl. We don't want two victims. We don't want someone wrongly accused. We want the right person brought to justice for the right crime. What exactly happened to this child, and who did it?"

 

[LambChop]

No LambChop, I don't think he'll buy it.....but I'm afraid rather than prejudice ICA's case, he'll bend as much as he can. I'm pretty sure HHJP smells the manure all the way from JB's office as it is being created......:floorlaugh:

Oh, is that where it's coming from?? I'm shocked.

 

[ThinkTank]

Originally Posted by ThinkTank
In the Defense Motion for extension of time to comply with order for Expert witness reports, filed Jan 25, 2011 - the Defense writes about Dr. Werner Spitz --
"i. The Defense has a good faith basis and has supporting documentation which has been disclosed to the prosecution and is available to the court to examine under seal as to why Dr. Werner Spitz's report is not complete."

So do you think HHJP will buy this latest load of horse manure?

IMO - it depends on how much the Prosecutors choose to bring to Judge P's attention, via a Response filed to the Defense Motion for extension of time. Will the Prosecutors inform the Judge of all of the misrepresentations in the Defense Motion? Will the State point out how ludicrous it is for the Defense to claim that they do not already have some type of notes or report from all of the Experts?

Bottom line ... judging from past rulings by the Judge ... he will allow some extension of time .... (not that I personally agree with that decision)

I just hope the Judge will address the fact that the Defense keeps writing in Motions that certain Defense Experts will not testify, or have been "withdrawn" ... when they have NOT "officially" been withdrawn, and must continue to be considered Expert witnesses who the State must depose, until the Defense officially files an Amended Defense Witness List to remove any witnesses.

 

[The World According]

Of course, we all hope for the elder Dr. Spitz full and swift recovery. You are spot on....the chances of him being at this trial in May to testify are remote, imo. I want to preface my remarks with again....I hope ALL GOOD THINGS for this Dr.

I do want to mention that calling his son to the stand, again, with due respect, would be a disaster, not because he is not fully capable. He is. He had laughed out loud on national TV at the preposterous stance of the defense and Cindy Anthony's claims regarding the dogs, the pizza, etc. He , at least then, did not appear to have been remotely phased by the fact that his pop was on the defense team. I must find it for you, he literally laughed, aloud. If the elder Dr. Spitz is unavailable, they better keep shopping and skip over his son, respectfully.

Found it! Check it out, he could teach Jose Baez the facts of life!



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi1W6Aoly3I[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_J4VbGgk-0[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSelSDYgRg[/ame]
Jose Baez certainly knows where THIS Dr. Spitz stands on these matters, and it is not with the defense theory. Someone, it is not readily apparent who, convinced Cindy that sweat or urine in the back of the car would register as decomp. The doctor tells her absoutely not. She just shakes her head like wheh..what does he know. I think Baez does the same, in his own way. He effectively lays down and pulls the covers over his head rather than getting to work on the facts in front of him.
Dr. Spitz here is very clear. I do not think the defense will use him; because I do not think he will play dumb. Even if he did...I can just see Jeff Ashton right now...cue up tape eight Liz in the control room...he is going down. That is the funny thing about the other defense expertts like Lee and Reichs, they have made statements in the press that could impeach them. If you don't believe me, just ask Dr. Kobilinski. You just can't make this stuff up!!!!

Cindy challenges the doctor to the Pizza experiement, explains it was so hot and there were maggots in there. Why in the world did Jose allow her to say such asenine things on national TV?!!! WHY!!!!!! Every single thing; without exception,that mom, pop and JOSE BAEZ have said on these talk shows has been very damning for Casey Anthony!!!
Defense needs more time alright. Defense needs a lot of things.

Jose should not tell such easily disprovable things. He makes a claim in the above video about the cadaver dog that is ...how did Fonzie used to say it....wrrr
wrrrr, wrrrr....not exactly right. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWMuJ5oZx34[/ame]
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124232"]Defense Motion to Exclude Canine - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
A comment from my dear friend Lanecelot:

"The handler said on testimony IIRC that one dog hit on all areas, so as protocal, they bring in a second dog to verify, not telling the handler where the hits were. The second dog hit on the same areas.
Cindy went on TV that night telling all that the first dog was inconsistent, so they had to bring in a second dog.
This is pure CA! She knew Caylee was dead. She is not weak, she will not crumble. She was not nor is she in denial. she is a stone cold lying!"

If I were the defense, I would concentrate on trying to find experts to keep the K9 and air samples out; because, all of the troubled would be witnesses they muster up to say Suburban was dry will not mediate against those two. If the K9 information and air samples come in.....it is over, imo.

 

[denjet]

ITA. This frustrates me to no end. As a legal secretary one of my priorities was making sure our experts remained onboard, available, and we had the CV BEFORE we ever contracted with them. You kept in contact with them as the case progressed to AVOID problems at the eleventh hour....I am disgusted how this case has been handled and how the rules just bend and bend.....I understand why HHJP has been lenient.....but I'm waiting for the day of reckoning for not only ICA, but for this defense team as well. :banghead:

Just had to say thanks for your post ... it dawned on me that people in a legal profession must be even more outraged at Baez's antics than ones, like me, who are not ... although I don't really consider Baez to be a lawyer ... he's struck me as just a wiseguy with no conscience since the beginning and my opinion hasn't changed ...

 

[RR0004]

Found it! Check it out, he could teach Jose Baez the facts of life!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi1W6Aoly3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_J4VbGgk-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSelSDYgRg
Jose Baez certainly knows where THIS Dr. Spitz stands on these matters, and it is not with the defense theory. Someone, it is not readily apparent who, convinced Cindy that sweat or urine in the back of the car would register as decomp. The doctor tells her absoutely not. She just shakes her head like wheh..what does he know. I think Baez does the same, in his own way. He effectively lays down and pulls the covers over his head rather than getting to work on the facts in front of him.
Dr. Spitz here is very clear. I do not think the defense will use him; because I do not think he will play dumb. Even if he did...I can just see Jeff Ashton right now...cue up tape eight Liz in the control room...he is going down. That is the funny thing about the other defense expertts like Lee and Reichs, they have made statements in the press that could impeach them. If you don't believe me, just ask Dr. Kobilinski. You just can't make this stuff up!!!!

Cindy challenges the doctor to the Pizza experiement, explains it was so hot and there were maggots in there. Why in the world did Jose allow her to say such asenine things on national TV?!!! WHY!!!!!! Every single thing; without exception,that mom, pop and JOSE BAEZ have said on these talk shows has been very damning for Casey Anthony!!!
Defense needs more time alright. Defense needs a lot of things.

Jose should not tell such easily disprovable things. He makes a claim in the above video about the cadaver dog that is ...how did Fonzie used to say it....wrrr
wrrrr, wrrrr....not exactly right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWMuJ5oZx34
Defense Motion to Exclude Canine - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
A comment from my dear friend Lanecelot:

"The handler said on testimony IIRC that one dog hit on all areas, so as protocal, they bring in a second dog to verify, not telling the handler where the hits were. The second dog hit on the same areas.
Cindy went on TV that night telling all that the first dog was inconsistent, so they had to bring in a second dog.
This is pure CA! She knew Caylee was dead. She is not weak, she will not crumble. She was not nor is she in denial. she is a stone cold lying!"

If I were the defense, I would concentrate on trying to find experts to keep the K9 and air samples out; because, all of the troubled would be witnesses they muster up to say Suburban was dry will not mediate against those two. If the K9 information and air samples come in.....it is over, imo.

Oh...how I hate to hear (again) all this bs that Baez and Cindy spew. Cindy was the perfect patsy...I mean spokesperson. Whatever she was told...and I'll assume it was Baez who was doing the telling...she believed to be true. She couldn't wait to tell the world how wrong they had it. The problem here...and I do remember seeing this program way back when...is that she never stopped and listened to what she was saying. On the other hand, we here at WS found it extremely difficult to NOT shout things at the tv!! She didn't want to hear how ridiculous it all sounded because she couldn't face the truth. IMVHO, I think Jose used her big time.

 

[AZlawyer]

Found it! Check it out, he could teach Jose Baez the facts of life!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi1W6Aoly3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_J4VbGgk-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSelSDYgRg
Jose Baez certainly knows where THIS Dr. Spitz stands on these matters, and it is not with the defense theory. Someone, it is not readily apparent who, convinced Cindy that sweat or urine in the back of the car would register as decomp. The doctor tells her absoutely not. She just shakes her head like wheh..what does he know. I think Baez does the same, in his own way. He effectively lays down and pulls the covers over his head rather than getting to work on the facts in front of him.
Dr. Spitz here is very clear. I do not think the defense will use him; because I do not think he will play dumb. Even if he did...I can just see Jeff Ashton right now...cue up tape eight Liz in the control room...he is going down. That is the funny thing about the other defense expertts like Lee and Reichs, they have made statements in the press that could impeach them. If you don't believe me, just ask Dr. Kobilinski. You just can't make this stuff up!!!!

Cindy challenges the doctor to the Pizza experiement, explains it was so hot and there were maggots in there. Why in the world did Jose allow her to say such asenine things on national TV?!!! WHY!!!!!! Every single thing; without exception,that mom, pop and JOSE BAEZ have said on these talk shows has been very damning for Casey Anthony!!!
Defense needs more time alright. Defense needs a lot of things.

Jose should not tell such easily disprovable things. He makes a claim in the above video about the cadaver dog that is ...how did Fonzie used to say it....wrrr
wrrrr, wrrrr....not exactly right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWMuJ5oZx34
Defense Motion to Exclude Canine - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
A comment from my dear friend Lanecelot:

"The handler said on testimony IIRC that one dog hit on all areas, so as protocal, they bring in a second dog to verify, not telling the handler where the hits were. The second dog hit on the same areas.
Cindy went on TV that night telling all that the first dog was inconsistent, so they had to bring in a second dog.
This is pure CA! She knew Caylee was dead. She is not weak, she will not crumble. She was not nor is she in denial. she is a stone cold lying!"

If I were the defense, I would concentrate on trying to find experts to keep the K9 and air samples out; because, all of the troubled would be witnesses they muster up to say Suburban was dry will not mediate against those two. If the K9 information and air samples come in.....it is over, imo.

I think this was the first time I heard JB say the cadaver dog was either "1-for-2 or 0-for-2" and I thought, "what the heck does he mean by that"?? :waitasec: Then I realized that he actually believed that decomp from any given body could only be found in ONE PLACE :loser:, so if the dog found decomp in TWO places it was clearly wrong--or, as Cindy said (operating perhaps under the same misconception) "inconsistent."